The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[kleese]

9 hours ago, Peregrine said:

So, because its a football team they dont have the ability to cheat their paying customers, and lie to them?  

 

Wow.

 

Also, for you to say a multi-billion dollar business has never lied to you makes you out to be the biggest fool of all.  Theres never been one that hasnt.

 

I can’t think of one time in my fanhood where I invested time or money on the Redskins based on something I later learned was a lie. For example, last year I traveled to DC for the home game against Dallas. I also went to the road game against Dallas and the road game at NOLA. That’s three Redskins-based trips, one at FedEx. Air travel, hotel, yada yada yada... all to see the Redskins. They went 0-3 in those games and two of them were basically beat downs at the hands of our rival. The other was a soul crushing loss. But I did not feel cheated. Or duped. I knew when entering into those purchases that there was a strong likelihood of the ultimate outcomes and I proceeded anyway. I will almost certainly do the same next year. I enjoy following the team and rooting for them even while acknowledging how terrible they are organizationally. I won’t be buying tickets next year expecting to see a SB contender or heck, I may not even be expecting a competent team depending on what they do. So I don’t feel I can cry “they lied to me” as I walk out dejected as usual. 

[HardcoreZorn]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You mentioned you had sympathy for Dan because he doesn't interfere as much.   That's a theory, we don't know that for sure.  And that's coming from someone like me who actually somewhat believes it (unlike some others who don't) but I don't believe it to the extent that he doesn't interfere at all.  So i was explaining why I have zero sympathy for Dan because in my view he brings plenty of other issues regardless of how much he interferes or not.  The culture of an organization is set by the owner.  So if this team comes off like a clown show -- Dan is always the lead clown since its his show. I don't have one whit of sympathy actually for him.  So yeah no that point wasn't directed at you specifically but directed at the "sympathy" point.

 

As for people not wanting Dan to interfere.  That doesn't mean never talk.  That would be ridiculous.   Just about every owner talks.   and its not hard to see that the reason he doesn't talk has nothing to do with him to try to come off like he doesn't interfere but because as most say he's socially uncomfortable and doesn't like to do public speaking.  And with fans really hot right now about what's going on -- he doesn't want to face the music.  Ditto Bruce by the way accept for the socially uncomfortable part.  

I guess I should say I don't think he at all interferes in personnel decisions.

 

But the only thing I have a shred of sympathy toward Dan for is not wanting to face the fans and media. Trust me, 10 years ago when Dan would hold pressers with his shiny new toys up at the podium, fans begged him to stay the F away. Now they want him to come out and talk? Just funny to me is all.

 

I think we're about to see a pretty big shakeup. I don't buy for a second that Dan Snyder doesn't know how bad this thing is right now, he's about to go vintage Dan Snyder. Just a hunch.

[KDawg]

I don't think talent evaluation is the knock on Gruden/Allen... (I'm not sure how well this pertains to current convo... just something I've been thinking about)

 

I think they are pretty good at finding talent to be honest. The team has a ton of it. 

 

Where I see issues:

 

1) How they handle making decisions - Reuben Foster is an example here. I'm not talking about signing him. I'm talking about signing him, seemingly without consulting Gruden, and then throwing Gruden and Williams under the bus without saying much of anything in front of the press. That's where I took issue with that. At the time, and now, I think it was a brilliant move football wise... but his injury history... (that's my next point). There are more cases of this point that stand out as well. This is a major cultural issue that needs to change.

 

2) Reliance on Injury Prone Talented Players - Part of getting talent for the Redskins has been getting it at reasonable costs (aside from a few pieces). A lot of the reasonable cost comes from signing guys who have an injury history. That works on a few pieces. It doesn't work on 15-20 pieces of your roster. Making a shrewd deal on an injured player (Guice in particular) is a great move. Making 20 of them is questionable. 

 

3) Believing Everything is Okay - I'm not sure what narrative I believe. But regardless, if Allen truly thinks nothing needs improvement he is the biggest problem that this franchise has. But this is hearsay so not as important to my point.

 

4) Culture - We cut Swearinger. Okay. Cool. But we let Mason Foster stay and he literally said **** the team and **** the fans. To me that's a lot more egregious than what Swearinger did (although, Swearinger needed to keep his mouth shut as well, so in a vacuum I'm not against releasing him... but the building is kind of backwards). There is no culture in DC. Literally none. I'm not even sure I can pinpoint the team's on-field identity. What is it that the team is trying to build? This is a damning issue for any President or GM. No culture means you're only a wild card. There is no consistency.

 

I wouldn't rule it out, on a year where injuries don't plague us, that the team could go 12-4 and make a run in the playoffs. But I would be willing to bet large sums of money that with the way the team is currently run that we will never see Redskin teams consistently that good. It would take a lot of luck on injury prone players to get to that mark. And that luck rarely happens twice. This team, with its talent, can be a consistent 6-10 to about a 9-7 team. Anything above or below has a lot to do with luck in my opinion.

 

I'd like to stop relying on luck to be consistent. And that starts with having a culture and an identity to build on. 

 

What is the team's mission statement? Does anyone have any idea?

[bird_1972]

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

2) Reliance on Injury Prone Talented Players - Part of getting talent for the Redskins has been getting it at reasonable costs (aside from a few pieces). A lot of the reasonable cost comes from signing guys who have an injury history. That works on a few pieces. It doesn't work on 15-20 pieces of your roster. Making a shrewd deal on an injured player (Guice in particular) is a great move. Making 20 of them is questionable. 

 

 

I'd like to see more focus on this issue. I also don't believe all of the injuries year in and year out are just due to chance. There definitely is a systemic issue and this could possibly be the reason (plus poor preparation and possibly an issue with the training staff).

[HardcoreZorn]

3 minutes ago, bird_1972 said:

 

I'd like to see more focus on this issue. I also don't believe all of the injuries year in and year out are just due to chance. There definitely is a systemic issue and this could possibly be the reason (plus poor preparation and possibly an issue with the training staff).

I think a lot of it is poor preparation/not practicing hard enough. It's not rocket science. The body can't coast mon-sat and then sunday go full speed and not expect to sustain injuries. This falls on Gruden IMO.

 

The reason we got guys like Fuller and Moreau where we did is because of injuries in college. It's football, injuries happen. So I wouldn't completely steer away from players that have suffered them. But we need to prepare like we are going to play on sundays.

[Reaper Skins]

57 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

What is the team's mission statement? Does anyone have any idea?

 

[KDawg]

30 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I think a lot of it is poor preparation/not practicing hard enough. It's not rocket science. The body can't coast mon-sat and then sunday go full speed and not expect to sustain injuries. This falls on Gruden IMO.

 

 

I love criticizing the FO... but this is only partially true. 

 

The CBA has a large role in the way team's practice. Having said that... I agree that Gruden could run things a bit tougher.

[bird_1972]

32 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I think a lot of it is poor preparation/not practicing hard enough. It's not rocket science. The body can't coast mon-sat and then sunday go full speed and not expect to sustain injuries. This falls on Gruden IMO.

 

The reason we got guys like Fuller and Moreau where we did is because of injuries in college. It's football, injuries happen. So I wouldn't completely steer away from players that have suffered them. But we need to prepare like we are going to play on sundays.

 

I think we agree. It's multifactorial. 

 

Although I do think the points raised from K Dawg on this were interesting and should be considered. OK for us to gamble on a couple of bargains (esp guys who drop in draft) with injury histories but we can't rely on too many of them.

[HardcoreZorn]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I love criticizing the FO... but this is only partially true. 

 

The CBA has a large role in the way team's practice. Having said that... I agree that Gruden could run things a bit tougher.

True, that's part of it as well. Aren't injuries up league wide?

 

I just felt sick reading what Bill B said about practicing with the Redskins. And DJ's comments. There has to be a way to practice harder and faster paced while still conforming to the rules of the CBA.

[bird_1972]

2 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

True, that's part of it as well. Aren't injuries up league wide?

 

 

If this is true, I wonder if the Players Association may reconsider some of the practice rules next time the CBA is renegotiated.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

But the only thing I have a shred of sympathy toward Dan for is not wanting to face the fans and media. Trust me, 10 years ago when Dan would hold pressers with his shiny new toys up at the podium, fans begged him to stay the F away. Now they want him to come out and talk? Just funny to me is all.

 

 

Unless I am misunderstanding you to me this is a hard point for me to follow on your end.

 

Even in his heyday when he spoke on rare occasion he was even then more reclusive than the average owner.  He's never been much of a talker publicly.  And I recall the beef that fans had with Dan back then well.  It wasn't gosh we don't want to see Dan make any public appearances ever.  It was why are they trading draft picks away and signing has been FAs.  The beef wasn't why is Dan Snyder present in the press conference (like any other owner does typically) of the new acquisition.  The beef what is the team doing.

 

The occasional rare, once a year presser that Dan would show up to would give a rare window into what the team was thinking.  The beef wasn't about that rare presser. 

 

Dan's always been flirting with the Greta Garbo motif.  He's just gotten even more extreme in that regard.  

 

You can get the typical owner for example Mara to talk from time to time and ditto other owners during the year let alone just once a year like Dan did for a time -- and now its at zero with the exception of a rare comment or two at a charity event.

2 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

I think we're about to see a pretty big shakeup. I don't buy for a second that Dan Snyder doesn't know how bad this thing is right now, he's about to go vintage Dan Snyder. Just a hunch.

 

Hard to tell for me but I think its possible.  The rumblings are a bit all over the place. 

[MariusVT]

3 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

Dan needs to sell the team. 

 

The NFL should pressure him to do so for the good of the league. 

 

No jurisdiction in the DMV should give an inch to Snyder in order to build a stadium. He has not proven himself a worthy investment risk.

 

So much this, Danny wants a new stadium? He can pay fair market value for the land and build the entire thing himself out of his own pocket.

3 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

Dan needs to sell the team. 

 

The NFL should pressure him to do so for the good of the league. 

 

No jurisdiction in the DMV should give an inch to Snyder in order to build a stadium. He has not proven himself a worthy investment risk.

 

So much this, Dan wants a new stadium? He can pay fair market value for the land and build the entire thing himself out of his own pocket.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

I've not commented myself on any of those Redskins tweets where they all pile on but i have to say its amusing to watch what happens each time they post.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

3 hours ago, bird_1972 said:

 

If this is true, I wonder if the Players Association may reconsider some of the practice rules next time the CBA is renegotiated.

When does the current CBA expire anyway? Not too far away right? Isn’t it like after next season or after the 2020 season? 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

 

It's pretty rotten when Skins FO and management can't even keep their fans posted on what they are doing.  They just keep silent.  The entire world sees what they are doing and they just don't care!  Sad!  Snyder owned a communications company before selling and buying a majority of the Redskins yet he can't communicate to his fanbase.  Again, sickening and sad.  Childish, I might add.  Sorry SIP not aiming the frustration at you but the tweet above.   

[LightningBuggs]

Great. 

 

In other words, more of “the way have done things around here before works. Let’s go back to that.”

[Skinsinparadise]

Just listened to Hoffman after listening to Jones before that.  Jones didn't give the vibe that Bruce is being reassigned but he didn't address the point directly, he just said he expects the main change for the off season will be Manusky going.  He thinks they should wait to do it because of all the permutations with interviews for HC jobs and when that dust settles more candidates will be available.

 

Hoffman disagrees with the WP stories about Bruce being reassigned.  He echoes what Chris Russell likes to say which is Bruce really really likes to be considered a "football guy" and he's not going to want to go out of that department.  Hoffman more or less goes he's too tight with Dan and has too much power in that building running things and is too good of a politician behind the scenes to lose power. 

 

The backdrop to that point wouldn't really go against part of the WP narrative or that of Sheehan and Finlay either which is they think fans are just hot because of the losses at the end of the year and are reactionary.  Something like the tweet below.

 

Hoffman also thinks some movement with assistant coaches will happen this week because they are in meetings on it in the beginning of this week.

 

 

 

[Conn]

Shanahan, McVay, and LaFleur (soon for the Packers apparently) all exciting young offensive minds turned HC's now. All developed here  in some capacity while Allen ran the team into the ground with vanilla Gruden doing his best Jeff Fisher impersonation, never rising above mediocrity. 

[skins island connection]

17 hours ago, Peregrine said:

So, because its a football team they dont have the ability to cheat their paying customers, and lie to them?  

 

Wow.

 

Also, for you to say a multi-billion dollar business has never lied to you makes you out to be the biggest fool of all.  Theres never been one that hasnt.

 

 It kinda reminds me of that old saying;

 " it used to be wine, women and song.

   Now its beer, the ol' lady and tv ".

 

I understand different people have their personal views of how or what this franchise has done or not done to them, but everyone is different. If they want to feel cheated, its their prerogative, as long as that person doesn't force their mindset onto others expecting the same results. To each their own.

 

Personally, I'm not happy one damn bit about how Snyder has let a weasel like Bruce Allen slowly and methodically run this team down; Snyder HAD to have done some research into Bruce's past affiliations with other NFL organizations and saw how that turned out, so my only conclusion is he was hired as a two-fold perspective; past GM / president operations and nostalgic hire.  Don't get me wrong, if he were on fire I'd give him some urine in a stream-type flow, but that's just my personal feelings on Allen.

[RWJ]

It will be interesting to see how many more years of lost revenue and fans Snyder will endure until he finally lets Allen go.  Totally stupid to think about building a new stadium when the old one is FAR from being filled up each and every home game.  That will be more revenue lost for Snyder until he decides to part with Allen and Co.

[bakedtater1]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Shanahan, McVay, and LaFleur (soon for the Packers apparently) all exciting young offensive minds turned HC's now. All developed here  in some capacity while Allen ran the team into the ground with vanilla Gruden doing his best Jeff Fisher impersonation, never rising above mediocrity. 

I just come here to post something like this...good call man..wish the skins would get there **** together..

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, RWJ said:

It will be interesting to see how many more years of lost revenue and fans Snyder will endure until he finally lets Allen go.  Totally stupid to think about building a new stadium when the old one is FAR from being filled up each and every home game.  That will be more revenue lost for Snyder until he decides to part with Allen and Co.

 

I get the vibe if it stays status quo the thinking is this

 

A.  Pure bad luck foiled the team.  They are really really close to being really good.  6-3 start is the real story. 

 

B.  I am ok with Jay but I think he's part of selling this narrative and in his defense he has no choice but to do so.  That is, him saying they are close.  And saying Colt could win the division next season so the QB situation isn't as bleak as some make it out to be.  I've noticed every time Jay is asked if the Alex injury is the turning point -- he more or less says no it was Colt's injury in addition to that.  The way he makes the point it gives the vibe that in his mind Colt and Alex are interchangeable.  

 

C.  Just to play it safe they will draft a Qb relatively high this draft to protect the future.  Fans will be excited about that. 

 

D.  The fans aren't really that down on Bruce, he's just the scapegoat du jour, fans are just upset about losing 6 out of the last 7 games and of course the GM and coach are the scapegoats.  They will get over it next season when we win the division.  It's just emotion that will blow over. 

 

E.  Lets give the fans a little red meat and bring a big name D coordinator.   That should satisfy them. 

 

 

They might be successful selling this now - not that fans will buy into it but Dan buys into it.  But if so I suspect its going to come crashing next season whether they like it or not.   And the more I think about it I am not going to have that much angst about it because its the perfect year draft wise to have a downturn and if that's whats needed to sweep out Bruce than its a win win.  So am not sweating anything this year including FA.  

 

They lost 6 out of 7 and it easily could have been 7 in a row.  Before Alex's injury they lost 2 out of 3 and that easily could have been 3 in a row.  I think they are overrating the start of the season.  Arizona was terrible then so were the Giants, GB was hobbled with Rodgers' injury and had a bad season.  Tampa dominated the game statistically but 4 turnovers turned it to a win.  the Cowboys game was arguably the best win but even that one could have easily gone the other way.   The Panthers game maybe the other nice win but the Panthers fell apart this season.

 

 

[kleese]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Just listened to Hoffman after listening to Jones before that.  Jones didn't give the vibe that Bruce is being reassigned but he didn't address the point directly, he just said he expects the main change for the off season will be Manusky going.  He thinks they should wait to do it because of all the permutations with interviews for HC jobs and when that dust settles more candidates will be available.

 

Hoffman disagrees with the WP stories about Bruce being reassigned.  He echoes what Chris Russell likes to say which is Bruce really really like to be considered a "football guy" and he's not going to want to go out of that department.  Hoffman more or less goes he's too tight with Dan and has too much power in that building running things and is too good of a politician behind the scenes to lose power. 

 

The backdrop to that point wouldn't really go against part of the WP narrative or that of Sheehan and Finlay either which is they think fans are just hot because of the losses at the end of the year and are reactionary.  Something like the tweet below.

 

Hoffman also thinks some movement with assistant coaches will happen this week because they are in meetings on it in the beginning of this week.

 

 

 

 

I actually think Dan might be right about that. At least in the sense that I don’t think firing Bruce is gonna put butts in the seats. They could fire Bruce today, have him leave the building, promote Smith or whoever and I don’t think it would make one iota of a difference in ticket sales or crowd presence to start next year. It will placate an angry mob, but for those that have bailed on the team I seriously doubt that is enough to bring them back. It would calm social media for a few months, sure. But if we play Dallas or Philly or whoever at FedEx week 1 I’ll be expecting a half full stadium and/or a takeover regardless of whether Bruce is there or not. It would be different if the team is 8-2 playing a home game next year— then you’d see a change— again, whether Bruce is there or not. 

 

I’m not defending Bruce here. I want him gone too, but I don’t think in the short term it will have any impact on how gameday looks. Long term? Yeah hopefully it would be a step in right direction.