Bonez3 Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 4 hours ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said: Do you really believe bree is juicing because he doesn't look like the past 2 years...when everybody on our defense looked atrocious the past 2 years and now they suddenly look like they know how to play again? It's the credibility of the coaches that are now there running the show. Not really but I felt like making a bold statement. I hope he isn't. I stayed with him as long as I could last year before I had to sign off. Took a little while in preseason with some of the immature antics. But, I'm fully back in and love the way he plays. Hope to resign him but I know he ain't giving this team any discounts and gonna go for every penny he can get. I doubt we resign him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilandil Tasardur Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Personally, taking out all emotion, I think that a "good" organization would re-sign Breeland and look to either restructure Norman or move him after the 2019 season (when he has 1 year left on the current deal in what would be his age 31 season). Norman's cap his is 17 million next year, but goes down to 14.5 and 15.5 the two years after that. If you can find a way to make both contracts work for one year, you get a little relief towards the back end. Theoretically, you would want to do this because Breeland has 5 "pre-30" years left whereas Norman has only 1. While I don't expect it, Norman could really lose a step or fall off talent wise in 2018 or more likely 2019. Letting 5 good years of Breeland walk because you have money tied up in 2 good years of Norman doesn't make sense. Good teams plan so that the twos become the ones, the ones move on, and the rookies become the twos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Adama Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 Pay that man his money https://media.giphy.com/media/fBWxEYkGiDPTW/giphy.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method man Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 11/11/2017 at 11:13 AM, Vilandil Tasardur said: Personally, taking out all emotion, I think that a "good" organization would re-sign Breeland and look to either restructure Norman or move him after the 2019 season (when he has 1 year left on the current deal in what would be his age 31 season). Norman's cap his is 17 million next year, but goes down to 14.5 and 15.5 the two years after that. If you can find a way to make both contracts work for one year, you get a little relief towards the back end. Theoretically, you would want to do this because Breeland has 5 "pre-30" years left whereas Norman has only 1. While I don't expect it, Norman could really lose a step or fall off talent wise in 2018 or more likely 2019. Letting 5 good years of Breeland walk because you have money tied up in 2 good years of Norman doesn't make sense. Good teams plan so that the twos become the ones, the ones move on, and the rookies become the twos. I know it is two games but Norman was trash against the Vikings and Saints. Thought it was unthinkable but maybe this is something we do look at. Breeland has held his own against seemingly every top WR he has gone at this season with the exception of Thielen, who has wrecked everybody. If Breeland were a #1 CB, I think he'd end up middle of the pack. The guy is going to get paid this offseason and it is going to be tough to keep him. The guy who would come here on a short term deal to reestablish his value is Vontae Davis (he'd get a chance to start, he is a DC guy and his brother is here). He was trash this season but was really hampered by a groin injury, which he is now getting surgery for. I'd give him a 1-year $4M type of deal (he will be 30 as well so there's that) so that we can afford to keep Dunbar as well and give us insurance to help Moreau grow another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 11/11/2017 at 2:13 PM, Vilandil Tasardur said: Personally, taking out all emotion, I think that a "good" organization would re-sign Breeland and look to either restructure Norman or move him after the 2019 season (when he has 1 year left on the current deal in what would be his age 31 season). We have to take an entire 360 degree view of it first though. We've spent third-round picks each of the past two drafts on corners (Moreau and Fuller) in addition to investing time into converting another young player from a WR to a corner (Dunbar). It could be that this organization isn't going to invest in both Breeland and Norman at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: We have to take an entire 360 degree view of it first though. We've spent third-round picks each of the past two drafts on corners (Moreau and Fuller) in addition to investing time into converting another young player from a WR to a corner (Dunbar). It could be that this organization isn't going to invest in both Breeland and Norman at all. Not investing in Breeland or Norman would be so dumb. You've gotta have one of them, and I would want both. I'm thinking we'll hear about a nagging injury for Norman since he hasn't been himself the last few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said: Not investing in Breeland or Norman would be so dumb. You've gotta have one of them, and I would want both. I'm thinking we'll hear about a nagging injury for Norman since he hasn't been himself the last few weeks. Sorry - I meant that they may not intend to invest in both guys...only one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: Sorry - I meant that they may not intend to invest in both guys...only one of them. Yeah, I figured. I'm agreeing with you but didn't phrase it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Too much young talent on this roster at CB to even consider keeping Breeland. Has he looked good recently? Yes. But let us not forget the twitter tantrums he often has as well and the games where he can be beaten like a drum. If you don't think that this kind of player is the kind that chases money then you are kidding yourself. Invest that money into another inside linebacker and no I do not mean Foster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbunny Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 44 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said: Not investing in Breeland or Norman would be so dumb. You've gotta have one of them, and I would want both. I'm thinking we'll hear about a nagging injury for Norman since he hasn't been himself the last few weeks. Still hurting broken ribs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachboy757 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I don't think the FO will be considering Breeland's Twitter account when offering a new contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, fordranger76 said: Too much young talent on this roster at CB to even consider keeping Breeland. Has he looked good recently? Yes. But let us not forget the twitter tantrums he often has as well and the games where he can be beaten like a drum. If you don't think that this kind of player is the kind that chases money then you are kidding yourself. Invest that money into another inside linebacker and no I do not mean Foster. Really think back to how many games Breeland has been beaten like a drum. Not many, just the ones that are memorable because he was performing poorly. He's been great this year and is on an upward trajectory. You don't base a contract on what someone has done, you base it on what you think they will do. Bree is on the upswing. And the young talent? Fuller is an ace in the slot. Why change that? Dunbar isn't a #2 and Moreau isn't proven. I don't think that our talent is ready. 7 minutes ago, Wildbunny said: Still hurting broken ribs? Ding ding, good call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilandil Tasardur Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I just that, when you draw it up in a theoretical boardroom "5 year plan", the ideal scenario is that Breeland resigns, Norman gets moved a year before he drops off (or restructures to make his money more palatable) and everyone else moves up the depth chart. As you guys have pointed out, we've invested a LOT of picks into the position and paying them both only ensures that those picks remain depth. That doesn't sound so bad, but it's crippling to a team. To really be successful you need guys overplaying their contracts. Having 2 lockdown corners doesn't do you any good if you're paying for 2 lockdown corners. Now, the question is, in real life, do you think the board room scenario can actually work. And, in my opinion, over the entirety of their time playing together, Breeland has been NO WORSE than Norman. They've both had great games. They've both been dusted. But neither travels with the receivers and I think the coaching staff truly believe that they can line each up on either side and it doesn't matter. If that's true, then you pay Breeland. You just do. To be fair though, I do NOT think Norman is recovered from those ribs. I don't think he's current play is a drop-off as much as playing hurt. But I don't think that factors into it for me. I'm not paying Breeland bc Norman is dropping off. I'm paying Breeland because he'll give me 5 years of his 20s while Norman will give me 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Skins Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I don't think its a coincidence that Norman has looked bad as soon as Hall came back into the lineup. I think he's missing assignments and its leading to confusion in the rest of the secondary. Other players, Norman included, are left looking out of position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method man Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 43 minutes ago, fordranger76 said: Too much young talent on this roster at CB to even consider keeping Breeland. Has he looked good recently? Yes. But let us not forget the twitter tantrums he often has as well and the games where he can be beaten like a drum. If you don't think that this kind of player is the kind that chases money then you are kidding yourself. Invest that money into another inside linebacker and no I do not mean Foster. I'd rather draft the next ILB or move Anderson to that spot as he is blocked by a bunch of guys at OLB and might just be a better fit at ILB anyway given his all around game. Foster is no Pro Bowler but he is a cheap quality stopgap starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said: I don't think its a coincidence that Norman has looked bad as soon as Hall came back into the lineup. I think he's missing assignments and its leading to confusion in the rest of the secondary. Other players, Norman included, are left looking out of position. I've had the same thoughts. But he's been beaten one on one on routes by average players that I just haven't seen out of him since he's been here. I'm not sure how much I expect it to happen, but it'd be lovely if he'd be willing to re-do his deal and allow us to free up some cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said: I don't think its a coincidence that Norman has looked bad as soon as Hall came back into the lineup. I think he's missing assignments and its leading to confusion in the rest of the secondary. Other players, Norman included, are left looking out of position. You could see it on DJ's face when Hall rubbed the TE (i think it was fleener) on the TD then bailed to the outside on the WR, despite the fact that Norman was out there... thus leaving the TE uncovered in the Endzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said: Really think back to how many games Breeland has been beaten like a drum. Not many, just the ones that are memorable because he was performing poorly. He's been great this year and is on an upward trajectory. You don't base a contract on what someone has done, you base it on what you think they will do. Bree is on the upswing. And the young talent? Fuller is an ace in the slot. Why change that? Dunbar isn't a #2 and Moreau isn't proven. I don't think that our talent is ready. You change that because you drafted for that. You drafted that way knowing Breeland was a FA soon and you cannot pay him what he most likely will want. Considering Cousins will get a huge chunk of cap, a likely resign of Brown to a fair deal, finding a new receiver, possible LG, and most definitely a new FS. Looking at those positions the only one we have actual depth is at CB. Paying Breeland mega bucks would be foolish IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilandil Tasardur Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Cousin isn't going to eat any more of the cap than he already is; he may even eat less depending on how the deal is structured. We're already paying 25 million. You have to a lot a decent amount to Brown, but you also get rid of Hall, probably Lauvao, Pryor, etc. The question that I posted last week that reignited this conversation is: can you find a way to live with paying BOTH Breeland and Norman for 2018 with the understanding that you're either moving on from Norman in 2019 or else restructuring his deal to reflect his age. If we don't pay Breeland because we don't think he's worth it, that's okay with me. But if the rationale is "Norman deserves that money instead", I'll be very upset. Because I think Breeland is equal in quality, 5 years younger, and still getting better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazhog Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 COUSINS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Vilandil Tasardur said: If we don't pay Breeland because we don't think he's worth it, that's okay with me. But if the rationale is "Norman deserves that money instead", I'll be very upset. Because I think Breeland is equal in quality, 5 years younger, and still getting better. I understand what you are saying but Norman vs Breeland is not close. Breeland is not going to make close to the money that Norman is making. Norman in many circles is considered a top 5 corner in the game. Never ever heard that about Breeland anywhere. I'm not saying that Breeland is bad. Infact I think he is very good. But he is not Norman. And for me that makes the decision easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilandil Tasardur Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, fordranger76 said: I understand what you are saying but Norman vs Breeland is not close. Breeland is not going to make close to the money that Norman is making. Norman in many circles is considered a top 5 corner in the game. Never ever heard that about Breeland anywhere. I'm not saying that Breeland is bad. Infact I think he is very good. But he is not Norman. And for me that makes the decision easy. They're not close on brand recognition, or on cell phone commercials, or high profile fisticuffs, but I'm not convinced they're so far in terms of on the field. When watch the games I don't see one over the other giving up more passes. I don't see either trailing the number 1 receiver exclusively. And I know I've seen Breeland lock down the likes of Dez and OBJ before. He lacks some of the "football player" of Norman (causing fumbles, etc), but I think they're closer than you think. Edit: if the front office thinks it's the difference been JJ Watt and Ryan Kerrigan, then you keep Watt (Norman) and let the other go. But if it's more like Orakpo and Kerrigan then you let the older guy go and the young guy take the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, fordranger76 said: I understand what you are saying but Norman vs Breeland is not close. Breeland is not going to make close to the money that Norman is making. Norman in many circles is considered a top 5 corner in the game. Never ever heard that about Breeland anywhere. I'm not saying that Breeland is bad. Infact I think he is very good. But he is not Norman. And for me that makes the decision easy. We've heard nothing about the team trying to work out an extension with Breeland to this point in the season. 2 offseasons will have passed between the time Josh got his deal and we begin to talk business with Breeland. The cap has only gone up since then. I'd imagine Breeland is looking forward to free agency and seeing what type of deal he'll garner on the open market. The only other guys out there are Trumaine Johnson and Malcolm Butler. I expect Breeland to get paid this offseason, close to what Norman got 2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: We've heard nothing about the team trying to work out an extension with Breeland to this point in the season. 2 offseasons will have passed between the time Josh got his deal and we begin to talk business with Breeland. The cap has only gone up since then. I'd imagine Breeland is looking forward to free agency and seeing what type of deal he'll garner on the open market. The only other guys out there are Trumaine Johnson and Malcolm Butler. I expect Breeland to get paid this offseason, close to what Norman got 2 years ago. Really? I don't know if I could justify that to myself to pay him that kind of money... but you may be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: The only other guys out there are Trumaine Johnson and Malcolm Butler. I expect Breeland to get paid this offseason, close to what Norman got 2 years ago. It might be possible I guess. Teams overpay every offseason. And if some team offers what Norman is making to Breeland there is no way this team should match that. Too many other vulnerable spots on this roster. For reference. NFL's highest paid cornerbacks (average salary per year): 1. Rams cornerback Trumaine Johnson: $16.7 million 2. Redskins cornerback Josh Norman: $15 million 3. Cardinals cornerback Patrick Peterson: $14 million 4. Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman: $14 million 5. Falcons cornerback Desmond Trufant: $13.8 million 6. Browns cornerback Joe Haden: $13.5 million 7. Jaguars cornerback A.J. Bouye: $13.5 million 8. Patriots cornerback Stephon Gilmore: $13 million 9. Giants cornerback Janoris Jenkins: $12.5 million 10. Lions cornerback Darius Slay: $12 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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