Harvey Weinstein, Fired Amongst Sexual Harassment Allegations

[tshile]

9 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

So you walk into a hotel restaurant, set a lap top on a table, and then stand up and give a presentation to somebody sitting at the table?

 

I've been to a lot of science meetings where a lot of people were doing presentations, and I've never seen that, and I've never heard of anybody doing that.  Generally, I'd consider that pretty rude to the people trying to work in the restaurant and the other people trying to eat there.

 

Maybe we just stay in different types of hotels? Yes, i've seen it done, yes I've been a part of it. It's involved posters and other things as well.

 

About the only time I've seen it not be acceptable is when there's a portable projector involved.

 

I'm not saying it works all the time for everyone in every situation. Just that it absolutely can work, and thinking a policy of not doing it in your hotel room with just you and another person is sexist (or because you think they are just worried they can't control themselves) because it can't possibly be done somewhere else is silly.

 

Like everything else there are choices and and there are costs associated with them. Yes, policies in place to avoid closed-door one on one situations because you're concerned about power dynamics, people being uncomfortable, or creating an environment with which sexual harassment/assault happens in (and goes unreported in) have multiple costs associated with them.

 

Ideally no one would falsely accuse anyone of such a thing, and people who are victims of it would speak out to prevent future victims, but simply paying attention shows that's not currently the case. Sexual harassment and assault is a complex issue in terms of actually stopping/preventing it and holding people accountable for perpetrating it... (even better, ideally people wouldn't harass or assault anyone, but it's quite clear that's not currently possible)

 

And the not meeting alone goes beyond actual harassment and assault. Which has been noted repeatedly, but goes ignored for whatever reason.

Edited October 12, 2017 by tshile

[PeterMP]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Maybe we just stay in different types of hotels? Yes, i've seen it done, yes I've been a part of it. It's involved posters and other things as well.

 

About the only time I've seen it not be acceptable is when there's a portable projector involved.

 

I'm not saying it works all the time for everyone in every situation. Just that it absolutely can work, and thinking a policy of not doing it in your hotel room with just you and another person is sexist (or because you think they are just worried they can't control themselves) because it can't possibly be done somewhere else is silly.

 

Like everything else there are choices and and there are costs associated with them. Yes, policies in place to avoid closed-door one on one situations because you're concerned about power dynamics, people being uncomfortable, or creating an environment with which sexual harassment/assault happens in (and goes unreported in) have multiple costs associated with them.

 

Ideally no one would falsely accuse anyone of such a thing, and people who are victims of it would speak out to prevent future victims, but simply paying attention shows that's not currently the case. Sexual harassment and assault is a complex issue in terms of actually stopping/preventing it and holding people accountable for perpetrating it...

 

And the not meeting alone goes beyond actual harassment and assault. Which has been noted repeatedly, but goes ignored for whatever reason.

 

Again, though you are defaulting to an assumption that women are more likely to claim they have been harassed when they have not then males or are more likely to be uncomfortable in one-on-one situations than males.

 

Where are those assumptions coming from?

[tshile]

26 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

3.  I haven't seen him say that, but again realistically the action only makes sense if you believe one of a few things;

 

(1.  That a sexual harassment claim by a woman is more damaging to him than one from man.  That doesn't seem likely.

2.  That a female is more likely to claim sexual harassment when they haven't been harassed.

3.  You don't trust yourself to not harass females.)

 

 

I think you're missing one for any sort of celebrity or otherwise public figure - some random person taking a picture of the two entering a hotel room by themselves, then making their own accusations (either public, or for bribery, or whatever.) Something you or I or majority of people probably don't need to worry about, but someone like an athlete or a politician could certainly be reasonable in worrying about.

 

Because even if nothing wrong happened, the picture looks bad, and the narrative is easily crafted and hard to combat. You're reduced to proving a negative, in a world where people read headlines to form their opinion and never really consider changing their opinions afterwards.

 

[PeterMP]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I think you're missing one for any sort of celebrity or otherwise public figure - some random person taking a picture of the two entering a hotel room by themselves, then making their own accusations (either public, or for bribery, or whatever.) Something you or I or majority of people probably don't need to worry about, but someone like an athlete or a politician could certainly be reasonable in worrying about.

 

Because even if nothing wrong happened, the picture looks bad, and the narrative is easily crafted and hard to combat. You're reduced to proving a negative, in a world where people read headlines to form their opinion and never really consider changing their opinions afterwards.

 

 

Okay, but then you still have to make the argument the situation looks worse for Pence if it is a female than a male where plenty of male politicians have survived actual documented affairs on their wives, but I don't know of a single male politician that's survived a claim of sexual misconduct with another male (even McGreavy, the Democratic governor in NJ was partly brought down partly by claims of homosexual misconduct) (and it absolutely made the national news)). (though it wasn't direct harassment).

Edited October 12, 2017 by PeterMP

[tshile]

15 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Again, though you are defaulting to an assumption that women are more likely to claim they have been harassed when they have not then males or are more likely to be uncomfortable in one-on-one situations than males.

 

Where are those assumptions coming from?

 

I don't know how likely a woman is to falsely claim harassment. The whole thing is tricky because she could feel harassed, but a reasonable 3rd party could feel there wasn't harassment, and then it gets into who gets to decide what harassment is etc etc. If she feels harassed, but you and I as a third party deem it wasn't harassment, is that "falsely claiming" harassment? Seems different than claiming harassment when the supposed victim knows it didn't occur but claims it anyway to extort money.

 

Anyways, what I was really trying to say is that I don't know how likely a woman is to falsely claim harassment, under any circumstance. I'd be willing to bet that what is significantly (and much more so) more likely to happen is that a woman is harassed and she doesn't report it. I have no hard facts to back that up, it's just my gut feeling on the situation.

 

I also don't know that it is more likely than a male would claim, but I think the statistics show men are significantly less likely to be harassed in general (for a number of factors), and women are a larger percentage of the population, and men have a larger share of 'power' positions in society, and therefore I don't think it's a stretch to think that harassment in general is more likely to occur to women, and that therefore false claims probably come more from women than men. It is just an assumption though.

 

I haven't said anything about men being more/less uncomfortable in one-on-one situations.

 

I also have said I'm not against, or don't think it's a bad idea, that these policies not be specific to opposite sex situations. I've also said just change the policy to avoid putting any specific woman at a disadvantage in the work place because the superior is a male (the whole can't work late, can't be hired, etc you keep mentioning.)

 

I'm all about applying the rules equally to everyone.

6 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Okay, but then you still have to make the argument the situation looks worse for Pence if it is a female than a male where plenty of male politicians have survived actual documented affairs on their wives, but I don't know of a single male politician that's survived a claim of sexual misconduct with another male (even McGreavy, the democratic governor in NJ was partly brought down partly by claims of homosexual misconduct) (and it absolutely made the national news)).

 

I think you're misunderstanding me/I'm doing a bad job of explaining my opinion.

 

I think someone like Pence is more likely to brush off the accusation. He's more likely to dodge the accusation in the public perception.

 

If the public believes he actually did it, I absolutely agree that it being against another male would be worse for him than it being against a woman. He works for a constituency that is very much against gay marriage, and I don't think it's a stretch to say they're against being gay in general (to what degree varies, it's all over the place...) So, if we believe that him sexually harassing/assaulting a man would mean he's sexually attracted to other men (gay or bisexual), then yeah that would be way more harmful to him than if it was a woman.

 

I trying to speak to how the accusation would be treated in regards to how easily the public would believe the victim's side of the story. If the public does believe the victim, I agree a male would actually be worse than a female for him (even though, in my opinion, it shouldn't matter.)

Edited October 12, 2017 by tshile

[TheGreatBuzz]

@tshile. False claims by women definetly happen.  I was the recipent of one.  And I have seen a few others also.  And these aren't just little incidents where there good ole boy network determined it wasn't harrassment.  Im talking full blown JAG investigations.  I actually have been to come here and share my experience.  Its just a long story and I haven't had time to write it out.

Edited October 12, 2017 by TheGreatBuzz

[PeterMP]

8 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

@tshile. False claims by women definetly happen.  I was the recipent of one.  And I have seen a few others also.  And these arent just little invidents where there good ole boy network determined it wasnt harrassment.  Im talking full blown JAG investigations.  I actually have been to come here amd share my experience.  Its just a long story and I haven't had time to write it out 

 

I'm not claiming false claims don't happen.  The issue is a false claim more likely to happen from a female than a male (and not just sexual harassment claims, but realistically any inappropriate activity).  Does spending time alone with a female put you at greater risk of them making some false claim of inappropriate activity than spending time alone with a male?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/12/entertainment/james-van-der-beek-grabbed/index.html

"James Van Der Beek says male executive groped him"

 

James Van Der Beek says male executive groped him.

 

Of course, he didn't name the person.  He did post this:

 

https://www.thecut.com/2017/10/im-a-coward.html?utm_campaign=thecut&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

 

(which includes this, which I thought was good:)

 

"This kind of thing doesn’t only happen to heroes. It happens to normal women — women who are cowards, ambitious jerks, talented artists, lonely girls, girls who put out, girls who don’t, girls who don’t like being called “girls,” wonderful and complicated and still-forming creatures who are forced to make impossible choices that follow them forever. Life isn’t a Miramax movie. Life is a mess. Yes, I am a coward, but let’s be clear: The man in the hotel room is to blame."

Edited October 12, 2017 by PeterMP

[tshile]

11 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 Does spending time alone with a female put you at greater risk of them making some false claim of inappropriate activity than spending time alone with a male?

 

Does time spent alone with a female produce more cases of sexual harassment accusations in general?

 

I don't know, I'm asking.

 

If the answer is yes, then I would think the answer to your question is also yes. Unless you're aware of research that suggests one gender is more prone to making false claims than the other. I'm not aware of that, but I don't study it either.

[PeterMP]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Does time spent alone with a female produce more cases of sexual harassment accusations in general?

 

I don't know, I'm asking.

 

If the answer is yes, then I would think the answer to your question is also yes. Unless you're aware of research that suggests one gender is more prone to making false claims than the other. I'm not aware of that, but I don't study it either.

 

Your post makes no sense to me.  I suspect that most males harassing people are heterosexual (I don't know that homosexual are more likely to harass some body and most males are heterosexual), and then you get the added part that sexual harassers are more likely to go out of their way to be alone with the person they are harassing.

 

That combination is almost certainly going to end up with more cases of sexual harassment because there is going to be more sexual harassment.

 

How that's connected to and results in more FALSE claims of (in general) inappropriate behavior in isn't clear to me.

 

(Especially in the context of you not wanting to claim that one gender is more prone to making false claims.)

[LadySkinsFan]

Can we agree that one sex is more likely to be a sexual predator than the other, whether hetero or homosexual?

 

Not to say that females don't sexually harass people.

 

And it's the power differential that's important. Sexual predators get much more gratification out of these encounters by bending others to their will than the sexual acts. It's the exercise of power. 

 

Examine the words of Trump on the Access Hollywood tape. He gropes women BECAUSE HE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. That's the kick for him. A woman wouldn't say no because of who he is, his power. And in his special delusion about his sexual prowess, he actually thinks he's irresistible. Plenty of women have turned him down, notably Candace Bergen and Brooke Shields for two. So if he can force a woman, that counts in some weird way.

[tshile]

42 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

How that's connected to and results in more FALSE claims of (in general) inappropriate behavior in isn't clear to me.

 

(Especially in the context of you not wanting to claim that one gender is more prone to making false claims.)

If the occurrence of something in two groups equally likely to occur, and one group is significantly larger, then....

 

 

[LadySkinsFan]

Interesting video about how we can raise boys to not be like Weinstein.

 

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I find it unbelievably ironic that this thread has become a "Broads lie" discussion.

 

Carry on,

Also, meet in a damn empty conference room with the door open.

 

Good God, you people.

[LadySkinsFan]

When others might go to prison, the powerful go to rehab.

 

Sex addiction or in other words not controlling oneself and acting decent.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/10/weinstein-sex-addiction/542619/?utm_source=atlfb

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

When others might go to prison, the powerful go to rehab.

 

Sex addiction or in other words not controlling oneself and acting decent.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/10/weinstein-sex-addiction/542619/?utm_source=atlfb

 

I bet he goes to Europe and doesn't come back, like Roman Polanski.  That's a dude that the Hollywood set loves to love, even though he did some gross stuff.  

[LadySkinsFan]

I won't see a Polanski movie.

[Bozo the kKklown]

26 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I find it unbelievably ironic that this thread has become a "Broads lie" discussion.

 

Carry on,

Also, meet in a damn empty conference room with the door open.

 

Good God, you people.

its insane. Hatred of women is often masked in fragile masculinity.

[tshile]

55 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I find it unbelievably ironic that this thread has become a "Broads lie" discussion.

 

Carry on,

Also, meet in a damn empty conference room with the door open.

 

Good God, you people.

 

28 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

its insane. Hatred of women is often masked in fragile masculinity.

 

It's telling that's all you two see out of it. Along with the people who liked your post.

 

Of course you're the people that think the issue is that people are worried they can't control themselves

[Dan T.]

This whole "Pence was right" narrative is bull****.  Pence talked about not even going to lunch with a woman.  In a public restaurant.  Because Satan might make his private parts all tingly.

 

He also said he wouldn't attend any event where alcohol was served unless mommy was along. 

 

He and Karen Pence are certainly entitled to live their lives by those rules.  But let's not pretend those rules are prudent hints for avoiding false accusations.  They are backward, ultra-conservative strictures out of line with professional norms.

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

 

 

It's telling that's all you two see out of it. Along with the people who liked your post.

 

Of course you're the people that think the issue is that people are worried they can't control themselves

 

Of course, people should protect themselves. I never have a one on one meeting with a woman in a room with a closed door. That's just basic common sense, and it's really for both your protection.

 

But we've reached a weird point in America where you can literally have a story about one of the most powerful men in Hollywood literally raping starlets, and someone is going to turn the story on its head with "Well...yea....what about all the men falsely accused of rape."

 

Same with race discussions. Talk about white nationalists and someone is going to bring up Sharpton.

 

White men in America have a serious case of "victim envy."

[Dan T.]

Now very similar allegations against Steven Seagal are coming out.  Inside Edition is airing a story tonight.  Inside Edition correspondentLisa Guerrero, who was an actress for a time, and Jenny McCarthy have come forward with accusations against Seagal, who was a big shot for a while in Hollywood.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/off-dress-men-hollywood-steven-202021745.html

Edited October 12, 2017 by Dan T.

[Destino]

Does Steven Seagal being a creep surprise anyone?  

[LadySkinsFan]

No.

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

31 minutes ago, Destino said:

Does Steven Seagal being a creep surprise anyone?  

 

I thought it was known that he was a creep for awhile.  This isn't news.

 

I saw someone say that Louis CK is having accusations brought forward soon.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Of course, people should protect themselves. I never have a one on one meeting with a woman in a room with a closed door. That's just basic common sense, and it's really for both your protection.

 

But we've reached a weird point in America where you can literally have a story about one of the most powerful men in Hollywood literally raping starlets, and someone is going to turn the story on its head with "Well...yea....what about all the men falsely accused of rape."

 

Same with race discussions. Talk about white nationalists and someone is going to bring up Sharpton.

 

White men in America have a serious case of "victim envy."

 

Except that what really happened was that someone brought up Pence's 'policy', and accused people of using such a policy of being either sexist or afraid they cannot control themselves and not harass/assault a woman when one-on-one, and it was mentioned multiple times by multiple people that there were good reasons for doing it including (as you point out) that it's to protect *both* parties.

 

Ironically the people normally ****ing about sexism and what you're talking about, were the ones focusing and steering the conversation to false accusations. 

 

It's almost like you didn't follow the conversation at all, saw a post or two, and decided you knew what was going on and posted some nonsense to be witty.  Problem is, that's not really how it went. At all.

 

2 hours ago, Dan T. said:

This whole "Pence was right" narrative is bull****.  Pence talked about not even going to lunch with a woman.  In a public restaurant.  Because Satan might make his private parts all tingly.

 

He also said he wouldn't attend any event where alcohol was served unless mommy was along.

Did he actually say the part about his parts all tingly (I realize you're using your own words to be funny)? Because that's basically been said by multiple people here but I haven't seen where anyone has shown he actually said it.

 

If he did then that's absurd. I didn't follow Pence's career. Honestly never really knew anything about him until he was Trump's running mate. I don't know if he said it or not.

 

The I agree with the rest of your post though. I don't subscribe to his ultra-conservative/religous view points at all.