2017 NCAA Football Thread

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

That's the point I'm trying to make, it's bigger than just UNC basketball or football, it's a university wide scandal.  All students involved were misled and the two or three people involved in creating and in the know should face criminal charges, imo.  They messed with students lives, degrees, etc.  

 

People are calling for the death penalty and vacating wins and championships, which shouldn't happen imo, because it's not an issue related to just athletes.  Which is why the NCAA can't do anything.  I want to see those involved and in the know face severe punishment, which at this point I think is only linked to three people.  Them not facing any kind of punishment is the bigger issue here, imo.

 

I agree, there should be penalties that are not limited to the athletic department.  I disagree that just because the issue is bigger than the athletics dept, it should get off scott free.  They cheated.  Period.  For A LONG TIME.  Internal and independent reports verify hundreds of students -- many of them athletes -- benefitted from hundreds of phony courses dating back to 1997.  Athletes were part of the cheating and probably the driving force behind it.  The athletics dept. should be have the ****ing wood laid to them.  Not the death penalty, that doesn't happen to name-brand schools.  But in a just world UNC basketball would be on probation for 15 years, lose 1/3 of its scholarships for at least 5, and Droopy Dog should be out.  The fact that they got zero sanctions is scandalous and entirely because the crooked-assed NCAA just doesn't want to harm one of it's biggest money makers.  

[PleaseBlitz]

11 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

No its not.  The coaches knew the classes were fake and not accredited?  Where is your proof of that?  Kids that took the class knew about it?  Proof?  The only connection to athletes is some took the class (50%) and steered towards it.  

 

Did coaches and tutors know the class was an easy A, I'm sure they did.  Was the class created to boost athletes grades?  I'm sure it was, but again, zero evidence of that (at least not yet).  Which is why it's a school academic issue and not just a NCAA issue.  Was the intention of making it available to all students part of the master plan by the few who created it?  I'm sure it was.  

 

You don't have to prove that the coach had direct knowledge that something like this was happening, you have to show that it happened and the coach should have known.  If the coach failed to put policies and procedures in place to ensure that something like this doesn't happen, that is called "lack of institutional control" and/or the less severe "failure to monitor."  Both are sanctionable offenses.  Clearly, those steps were not taken because SO MANY athletes took the fake class.  There is more than enough evidence here for a fair process to conclude that sanctions are proper.  Of course, when I refer to a fair process, an NCAA "investigation" is outside of that definition.  

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

7 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I agree, there should be penalties that are not limited to the athletic department.  I disagree that just because the issue is bigger than the athletics dept, it should get off scott free.  They cheated.  Period.  For A LONG TIME.  Internal and independent reports verify hundreds of students -- many of them athletes -- benefitted from hundreds of phony courses dating back to 1997.  Athletes were part of the cheating and probably the driving force behind it.  The athletics dept. should be have the ****ing wood laid to them.  Not the death penalty, that doesn't happen to name-brand schools.  But in a just world UNC basketball would be on probation for 15 years, lose 1/3 of its scholarships for at least 5, and Droopy Dog should be out.  The fact that they got zero sanctions is scandalous and entirely because the crooked-assed NCAA just doesn't want to harm one of it's biggest money makers.  

 

The reason I think there were not any sanctions is because the athletes themselves did not know the class was fake and there was no direct evidence that the coaches knew the class was fake either.  From my understanding (article I read a while ago), the coaches are not directly involved with academics, outside of "is so and so making his grades?" etc. that they have a hands off approach and staff that handles that stuff (making sure kids are going to class, grades are kept up, tutoring if needed, etc.).  

 

Knowing/believing that the class is an easy A to help keep their grades up, is completely different and appears that it's the stance the athletic department and programs have taken.  Could they be lying?  Sure, they could be.  But right now there isn't any evidence to prove they are lying.  Which is why I think they got off without any sanctions.  

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

25 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

But in a just world UNC basketball would be on probation for 15 years, lose 1/3 of its scholarships for at least 5, and Droopy Dog should be out.  

I take it you're not a UNC fan? 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, PleaseBlitz said:

 

You don't have to prove that the coach had direct knowledge that something like this was happening, you have to show that it happened and the coach should have known.  If the coach failed to put policies and procedures in place to ensure that something like this doesn't happen, that is called "lack of institutional control" and/or the less severe "failure to monitor."  Both are sanctionable offenses.  Clearly, those steps were not taken because SO MANY athletes took the fake class.  There is more than enough evidence here for a fair process to conclude that sanctions are proper.  Of course, when I refer to a fair process, an NCAA "investigation" is outside of that definition.  

 

Let's think about this logically.  A new class is created and offered to all students on campus.  Word gets spread that it's going to be an independent study class where you have one paper and don't have to show up for classes, cause there isn't any reason to, it's independent study.  Athletes and regular students start taking the class.  Coach hears about his players taking said class and hears also that it's a class and easy A for any student that takes it.

 

So, with that said:

 

1.  Why would the coach doubt the class was legit?

2.  Why would the students/athletes that took the class doubt it was legit?

3.  Why would one put policies in place to check the legitimacy of a class offered for everyone?  See question 1 & 2 (why would there be any reason to doubt the class was legit?).

 

I agree that the coaches need a handle on their athletes and need to monitor them.  But in this case, it's a matter of a few people creating a fake class, keeping it under wraps for decades.  I think it is beyond the scope of responsibilities of the coach to question whether or not a class is fake, at least before this scandal.  Now, obviously that should be included in his responsibilities moving forward from the day that information was brought to our attention.  

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

Just now, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I take it you're not a UNC fan? 

 

LOL, I don't really have any feelings towards them one way or the other.  I have an aunt, uncle and two cousins that went there and bleed Carolina blue.  One of my best friends at work went there.  I sure as **** like them a lot better than Duke.  But, their conduct in this instance makes me ****ing sick.

 

But, objectively, Roy Williams looks like Droopy Dog.  

 

  

4 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Let's think about this logically.  A new class is created and offered to all students on campus.  Word gets spread that it's going to be an independent study class where you have one paper and don't have to show up for classes, cause there isn't any reason to, it's independent study.  Athletes and regular students start taking the class.  Coach hears about his players taking said class and hears also that it's a class and easy A for any student that takes it.

 

So, with that said:

 

1.  Why would the coach doubt the class was legit?

2.  Why would the students/athletes that took the class doubt it was legit?

3.  Why would one put policies in place to check the legitimacy of a class offered for everyone?  See question 1 & 2 (why would there be any reason to doubt the class was legit?).

 

I agree that the coaches need a handle on their athletes and need to monitor them.  But in this case, it's a matter of a few people creating a fake class, keeping it under wraps for decades.  I think it is beyond the scope of responsibilities of the coach to question whether or not a class is fake, at least before this scandal.  Now, obviously that should be included in his responsibilities moving forward from the day that information was brought to our attention.  

 

 

 

1.  Because the class did not require attendance and barely required any work.

2.  Because the class did not require attendance and barely required any work.

3.  Because the class did not require attendance and barely required any work.

[PleaseBlitz]

Here are a few paragraphs from the report produced by Cadwalader, a major international law firm that did the external investigation:

 

http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/files/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

 

Quote

Deborah (“Debby”) Crowder was hired in 1979 as the Student Services Manager in the
African and Afro-American Studies Curriculum at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
(“Chapel Hill”). As a non-faculty member, her official responsibilities were limited to serving as
office secretary and administrator for the Curriculum.

 

Red flag one, the class was conducted by some random secretary, not a faculty member or teacher of any kind.

 

Quote

Specifically, she designed and offered what are called “paper classes.” These were classes
that were taught on an independent study basis for students and student-athletes whom Crowder
selected. Like traditional independent studies at Chapel Hill or any other campus, these classes
entailed no class attendance and required only the submission of a single research paper. Unlike
traditional independent studies, however, there was no faculty member involved in managing the
course and overseeing the student’s research and writing process. In fact, the students never had a
single interaction with a faculty member; their only interaction was with Crowder, the Student
Services Manager who was not a member of the University faculty.

Crowder provided the students with no actual instruction, but she managed the whole
course from beginning to end. She registered the selected students for the classes; she assigned
them their paper topics; she received their completed papers at the end of the semester; she graded
the papers; and she recorded the students’ final class grades on the grade rolls. When Crowder 

graded the papers, she did so generously – typically with As or high Bs – and largely without regard
to the quality of the papers. The result was that thousands of Chapel Hill students received high
grades, a large number of whom did not earn those high grades with high quality work. 

 

Red flag two, there was no actual instruction provided to students.  

Reg flag three, the papers were just given grades at random.

 

Quote

These paper classes were taken by students of all types, but were especially popular among
student-athletes, particularly those who played the “revenue” sports of football and men’s
basketball. Many of these student-athletes were referred to these classes by academic counselors in
the Academic Support Program for Student-Athletes (“ASPSA”) who were always under pressure to
maintain student-athlete eligibility and saw these classes – and their artificially high grades – as key to
helping academically-challenged student-athletes remain eligible and on the playing field. 

 

Biggest red flag of all:  The athletic department referred the students to the class.  

 

Then this lady retired.  Guess what happened.  Again, from the report:

 

Quote

When Crowder retired from the University in 2009 and she was no longer in position to arrange these classes, under-prepared
students and student-athletes began to struggle to maintain academic eligibility. At the request of
ASPSA football counselors, Nyang’oro offered several classes after Crowder’s retirement that
followed a similar format and were equally lacking in academic rigor. 

 

Quote

A good number of these student-athletes were “steered” to the AFAM paper classes by certain academic counselors in ASPSA. This steering was most prevalent among the counselors for the revenue sports of football and men’s basketball. While some of these counselors knew only that these were easy classes, others were fully aware that there was no faculty involvement and that Crowder was managing the whole course and grading the papers. Those counselors saw these paper classes as “GPA boosters” and steered players into them largely in order to help them maintain their GPAs and their eligibility under the NCAA and Chapel Hill eligibility rules. At least two of those counselors went so far as to suggest what grades Crowder should award to their players who were taking her paper classes.

 

The report goes on like this for 136 pages.  

[Hersh]

39 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

No its not.  The coaches knew the classes were fake and not accredited?  Where is your proof of that?  Kids that took the class knew about it?  Proof?  The only connection to athletes is some took the class (50%) and steered towards it.  

 

Did coaches and tutors know the class was an easy A, I'm sure they did.  Was the class created to boost athletes grades?  I'm sure it was, but again, zero evidence of that (at least not yet).  Which is why it's a school academic issue and not just a NCAA issue.  Was the intention of making it available to all students part of the master plan by the few who created it?  I'm sure it was.  

 

Maybe you are a UNC homer, I have no idea, but this remains a laughable defense/excuse that lacks integrity. It doesn't matter if the classes were created specifically for athletes to remain eligible nor does it matter if 100% of the students in those classes were athletes. (BTW, 50% of the participants in these classes is a HUGE number that you seem to casually dismiss) What matters is that coaches knew and academic officials knew of these fake classes and did nothing but guide athletes (and give consent by not stopping it) to these classes in order for athletes to remain eligible. It wasn't a couple of rogue people. 

 

[ixcuincle]

smh at UNC fans trying to explain away blatant cheating. EVeryone knows they should have gotten the hammer. UNC should be ashamed of themselves. Yeah we KNOW athletes are not there for school. We know that. One and done largely killed any mirage of these being student athletes. But that doesn't excuse what UNC did. UNC for 20 years allowed athletes to take these courses, guided them and encouraged them to do so, just so they could maintain eligibility. Meanwhile the rest of us hard working stiffs have to get challenged, take hard **** like calculus while they're taking sham classes for easy A's. 

 

I will say this again and again. This decision means that the NCAA doesn't give a damn about an athlete's education. He can take all the fake classes he wants, but if he still is eligible to make money for the university and the NCAA (despite NOT BEING ABLE TO GET PAID) the NCAA won't touch him. You know what is funny? The NCAA went after other schools for academic violations. Derrick Rose faked a SAT score and Memphis was put on probation. But when UNC players do it, nothing happens. Why? 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

  I agree that it's disgusting this ever happened and that those involved in creating the fake classes should face criminal charges.  With that said, I'm done, they got off, it's over until someone with hard evidence comes out of the woodwork and the investigation gets re-opened (which could happen).  Until then, GO HEELS!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

There is a TON of hard evidence.  Just a ton.  

 

http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/files/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

 

[Hersh]

10 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

There is a TON of hard evidence.  Just a ton.  

 

http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/files/2014/10/UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

 

 

Those defending UNC have essentially the same mindset about this as those that defend Trump's lies. 

[PleaseBlitz]

42 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Those defending UNC have essentially the same mindset about this as those that defend Trump's lies. 

 

Yep.  "They may be sleezeballs, but they're MY sleezeballs, so anything they do is justifiable."

[Long n Left]

If anything should come from this, IMO, it is a congressional oversight committee for the NCAA. One of the most corrupt organizations in America that just keeps on chugging along, doing whatever they want under the auspices of "We're looking out for the kids!" Right...

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

3 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Maybe you are a UNC homer, I have no idea, but this remains a laughable defense/excuse that lacks integrity. It doesn't matter if the classes were created specifically for athletes to remain eligible nor does it matter if 100% of the students in those classes were athletes. (BTW, 50% of the participants in these classes is a HUGE number that you seem to casually dismiss) What matters is that coaches knew and academic officials knew of these fake classes and did nothing but guide athletes (and give consent by not stopping it) to these classes in order for athletes to remain eligible. It wasn't a couple of rogue people. 

 

 

Last reply to anyone on this topic (at least I'm going to try to not reply anymore ).  First, I am a UNC basketball fan.  Second, my integrity is not in question.  I didn't attend the college, get misled into taking fake classes, steer others including athletes into taking classes, etc.  Third, I have never dismissed that 50% of participates were athletes, I have pointed out that fact in previous posts.  

 

Fourth, there is no physical evidence to prove that the coaches knew the classes were not accredited and were indeed fake classes.  They could only prove they knew the class existed and that athletes were steered towards the class.  

 

I have also stated that I think the classes were obviously created for athletes and by allowing non-student athletes to take them as well was the perfect cover-up/fail safe if the legitimacy of the class was ever found out.  It was and because of the fact it was offered to regular students and not just athletes it creates a roadblock for the NCAA because special treatment was offered not just to athletes, but regular students as well.  It cannot be improper benefits if everyone that took the class received the same treatment and same easy grade.  

 

You can speculate and make assumptions all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the evidence was not there to punish the athletic programs.  It doesn't matter if we all know that most likely more people involved knew it was fake and not just an easy class.  I'm not blind to anything and have my doubts and assumptions as well.  And if solid evidence comes out against basketball program as far as coaches knowing it was fake (and not just an easy grade) then feel free to impose sanctions, etc.  

11 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Those defending UNC have essentially the same mindset about this as those that defend Trump's lies. 

 

You're out of line now.  Comparing UNC defenders to Trump supporters.....just stop man.  

[ixcuincle]

5 minutes ago, Long n Left said:

If anything should come from this, IMO, it is a congressional oversight committee for the NCAA. One of the most corrupt organizations in America that just keeps on chugging along, doing whatever they want under the auspices of "We're looking out for the kids!" Right...

 

After that whole FBI thing Emmert said he'd create one for college basketball but who knows what effect that will really have. Boxing and college sports, the two most corrupt money driven athletics in the US 

[The Evil Genius]

I'd say the UNC peeps are more like the Paterno and/or PSU  apologists.

 

 

[Hersh]

1 minute ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Last reply to anyone on this topic (at least I'm going to try to not reply anymore ).  First, I am a UNC basketball fan.  Second, my integrity is not in question.  I didn't attend the college, get misled into taking fake classes, steer others including athletes into taking classes, etc.  Third, I have never dismissed that 50% of participates were athletes, I have pointed out that fact in previous posts.  

 

Fourth, there is no physical evidence to prove that the coaches knew the classes were not accredited and were indeed fake classes.  They could only prove they knew the class existed and that athletes were steered towards the class.  

 

I have also stated that I think the classes were obviously created for athletes and by allowing non-student athletes to take them as well was the perfect cover-up/fail safe if the legitimacy of the class was ever found out.  It was and because of the fact it was offered to regular students and not just athletes it creates a roadblock for the NCAA because special treatment was offered not just to athletes, but regular students as well.  It cannot be improper benefits if everyone that took the class received the same treatment and same easy grade.  

 

You can speculate and make assumptions all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the evidence was not there to punish the athletic programs.  It doesn't matter if we all know that most likely more people involved knew it was fake and not just an easy class.  I'm not blind to anything and have my doubts and assumptions as well.  And if solid evidence comes out against basketball program as far as coaches knowing it was fake (and not just an easy grade) then feel free to impose sanctions, etc.  

 

I'm not speculating. The "independent" report UNC paid for, better known as the Wainstein report, lays out that the classes were created for the benefit of athletes. Even the fraudulent NCAA noted UNC's ever shifting position on this case. 

The entire thing is a joke. The NCAA knows they have opened to the door for every other school to get away with this which just continues their way of ******* on students in favor of money.

 

[PleaseBlitz]

20 minutes ago, Long n Left said:

If anything should come from this, IMO, it is a congressional oversight committee for the NCAA. One of the most corrupt organizations in America that just keeps on chugging along, doing whatever they want under the auspices of "We're looking out for the kids!" Right...

 

Congress overseeing the NCAA would be an ungodly vortex of corruption.  

15 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

 

Fourth, there is no physical evidence to prove that the coaches knew the classes were not accredited and were indeed fake classes.  They could only prove they knew the class existed and that athletes were steered towards the class.  

 

 

Physical evidence no, this isn't a "physical evidence" type of case.  MOUNTAINS of other types of evidence which are just as valid and admissible; you just don't want to acknowledge it. 

15 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

 

 

You can speculate and make assumptions all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the evidence was not there to punish the athletic programs.  It doesn't matter if we all know that most likely more people involved knew it was fake and not just an easy class.  I'm not blind to anything and have my doubts and assumptions as well.  And if solid evidence comes out against basketball program as far as coaches knowing it was fake (and not just an easy grade) then feel free to impose sanctions, etc.  

 

 

 

Once again:

 

[Long n Left]

In an effort to get this thread back on track: I like Syracuse +24 at home to Clemson tonight. Bryant is a little nicked up, and Dabo doesn't like to run up scores.

 

That said, there's always a chance that Clemson D goose eggs Cuse.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

23 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

I'd say the UNC peeps are more like the Paterno and/or PSU  apologists.

 

 

 

Paterno should have faced charges.  I love you TEG, but comparing academic fraud to a serial rapist cover-up?  Come on man, not cool.

 

I'm not an apologist, I acknowledge the wrong doing at UNC.  I also acknowledge that the investigation led them to determine there wasn't any hard evidence to punish the sports programs involved. 

 

Looking at the what PB posted, one basketball counselor knew how the classes operated and that Crowder did some of the grading.  Again, if he kept that info to himself and never notified any of the coaching staff, that's on him not the coaches.  And it doesn't specifically state that he knew the class was fake and unaccredited, just that he knew how the class worked (independent study, no actual class meetings, one paper, graded by Crowder, etc.).  

 

Like I said, if there is evidence that directly implements Roy Williams or any of the coaching staff (still under employment) then by all means bring the hammer of justice down upon them.  Impose sanctions, fines, suspensions, termination, etc.   

 

I've said before, I think the fact that it involved all students that took the class, both athletes and non-athletes and all were treated the same way, same rules, same grading process, etc. is the reason the NCAA's hands were tied in this particular case.  Yes, UNC not only dodged a bullet, but an H-Bomb coming down on the basketball and football programs, I admit that.  

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

If you actually read the report, it will become very clear that the ENTIRE athletic department knew exactly how the class operated, and that it was not a legitimate class.  A football academic advisor was telling the secretary what grades she should give for ****s sake.

 

Instead of questioning that, they shepherded their kids to it; THEN, when the first lady retired, they demanded that someone else offer classes like that, which UNC then did.  

 

The academic advisors may not be coaches, but they are absolutely employees of the athletic department.  

[Hersh]

Other reports indicate coaches knew, but I see the goalposts have now been moved to coaching staff still under employment. Last time I checked if players were staying eligible through fake classes and coaches didn't know, that seems to be failure to monitor along with lack of institutional control since people did know. 

[The Evil Genius]

50 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Paterno should have faced charges.  I love you TEG, but comparing academic fraud to a serial rapist cover-up?  Come on man, not cool.

 

Sorry that wasn't the message I was trying to convey.

 

I was talking about the ability of some to not accept major wrongdoing in light of overwhelming evidence. UNC is very lucky they are who they are. Had then been Wake Forest or another lower ACC team, the hammer would have dropped a lot harder, I'd think.

 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, The Evil Genius said:

 

Sorry that wasn't the message I was trying to convey.

 

I was talking about the ability of some to not accept major wrongdoing in light of overwhelming evidence. UNC is very lucky they are who they are. Had then been Wake Forest or another lower ACC team, the hammer would have dropped a lot harder, I'd think.

 

 

I agree with this 100%.  UNC dodged a plethora of bullets on this.