The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, Skinz_4_life said:

 

 

Hmmmmm rg3 flourished in shanny's scheme before he wanted to become a pocket passer.. even won rookie of the year.. and I believe he was also voted number 3 on top 100 that year as a rookie. 

 

 

Running a version of his old system he ran in college. Once he tried to run a "NFL" offense in different systems and teams, he showed he could not run any of them. Kirk has even run that same system Griffin ran in college effectively, as well as running 2 different "NFL" systems effectively.

 

Probably best not to bring up the number of times Griffin has been on IR either, because he can't be an effective pocket passer.

 

Edit: 3 NFL systems that are QB friendly that Griffin has failed in, not 2.

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, Skinz_4_life said:

 

ok I'll practice my sarcasm!

[Skinz_4_life]

Just now, Morneblade said:

 

Running a version of his old system he ran in college. Once he tried to run a "NFL" offense in different systems and teams, he showed he could not run any of them. Kirk has even run that same system Griffin ran in college effectively, as well as running 2 different "NFL" systems effectively.

 

Probably best not to bring up the number of times Griffin has been on IR either, because he can't be an effective pocket passer.

 

 

Whoa buddy you're taking this down a whole other path. 

 

You missed the point I was trying to make. Back to the original question.. is it the qb or is it the scheme? 

 

Kirk is a great fit for the scheme but if they can't work out the numbers I'm sure jay can do it with another especially if he gets in on the selection. 

[Morneblade]

41 minutes ago, Skinz_4_life said:

 

 

Whoa buddy you're taking this down a whole other path. 

 

You missed the point I was trying to make. Back to the original question.. is it the qb or is it the scheme? 

 

Kirk is a great fit for the scheme but if they can't work out the numbers I'm sure jay can do it with another especially if he gets in on the selection. 

 

You brought up RGIII, did you not? And I explained why in RGIII's case, the success he was due to scheme, because he could not replicate it outside of that scheme. I then point out that Kirk has been good in multiple schemes. So, the answer, which you bring up again, is it scheme of QB?

 

In Kirk's case, it's the QB. And when you look at the history of how hard it is to find a guy like him, you can't expect to just "do it with another". Like we have over they past 20+ years, right?

 

Seriously, how can you even say that?

 

Edit: What urks me is that I already answered your question once about "system or QB". Then you go on about RGIII, which I counter and then you're like "whoa, you're going down a whole other path"

 

That you brought up. And I shot it down.

 

Then it's like "oh, we'll just get another guy". I'm done with this conversation.

[Veryoldschool]

The Skins could trade Cousins even if he refused to negotiate with the acquiring team, let's say the Browns.  The Skins, sans Scot, decide to trade Kirk for a 2nd round pick, more compensation is off the table because Kirk isn't interested in a LTD so the Skins decide to take a 2nd rounder from Cleveland and use the 24M a year on a couple Danny's brainstorms.  Cleveland gets Cousins hoping he'll be able to elevate them from putrid to respectable in 2017 and even more important they have a chance to win him over and get him to sign a long term deal in 2018.  It's they NFL version of a fat old guy import a hot Russian bride only the Brown's know exactly what they are risking while the smitten old fool is just a fool.  Cleveland has some kind of chance Kirk would want to stay or transition tag him and get a 3rd round pick as compensation.  It makes sense for Cleveland and because of Snyder it doesn't have to make sense for Washington, a suckers bet is Snyder's MO.

 

If they had Kirk in Cleveland at least the Browns would have a chance to win him over, they would never get Kirk or anyone remotely close to being a 28 year old Pro Bowl QB to freely choose Cleveland.   The Skins save or redirect the 24M Cousins was going get to Danny's genius trade move, a super fat and lazy nose tackle and a broken QB like Romo and a trip to the Bahamas to celebrate Snyder's latest master stroke.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

21 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

If they had Kirk in Cleveland at least the Browns would have a chance to win him over, they would never get Kirk or anyone remotely close to being a 28 year old All Pro QB to freely choose Cleveland.  

 

Kirk isn't an All Pro QB. I've been seeing that recently...not the case.

[Skinz_4_life]

4 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

The QB.  Andy Dalton didn't come close to putting up Kirk like numbers with even better talent at receivers, a better running game, and a better defense to create field position.  Not sure you thought your position through.  Your last name isn't Maddow is it?

 

My position is I want Kirk signed long term but because we don't know what the negotiation numbers are I fully trust Gruden because of his track record with running efficient offenses and the ability to get the most out of his qbs. I fully understand why the redskins don't want to overspend for Kirk. 

[Skinz_4_life]

3 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

You brought up RGIII, did you not? And I explained why in RGIII's case, the success he was due to scheme, because he could not replicate it outside of that scheme. I then point out that Kirk has been good in multiple schemes. So, the answer, which you bring up again, is it scheme of QB?

 

In Kirk's case, it's the QB. And when you look at the history of how hard it is to find a guy like him, you can't expect to just "do it with another". Like we have over they past 20+ years, right?

 

Seriously, how can you even say that?

 

Edit: What urks me is that I already answered your question once about "system or QB". Then you go on about RGIII, which I counter and then you're like "whoa, you're going down a whole other path"

 

That you brought up. And I shot it down.

 

Then it's like "oh, we'll just get another guy". I'm done with this conversation.

No sir I didn't bring up rg3 another member did. The point of it was rg3 was "electrifying" under shannys scheme but was a disaster under grudens. 

 

Look man I agree cousin can run Gruden scheme very efficiently but there is something the organization is seeing that has them treading with caution... all I'm saying is I see it from both sides. 

 

Lower your pitch fork 

[bobandweave]

33 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said:

The Skins could trade Cousins even if he refused to negotiate with the acquiring team, let's say the Browns.  The Skins, sans Scot, decide to trade Kirk for a 2nd round pick, more compensation is off the table because Kirk isn't interested in a LTD so the Skins decide to take a 2nd rounder from Cleveland and use the 24M a year on a couple Danny's brainstorms.  Cleveland gets Cousins hoping he'll be able to elevate them from putrid to respectable in 2017 and even more important they have a chance to win him over and get him to sign a long term deal in 2018.  It's they NFL version of a fat old guy import a hot Russian bride only the Brown's know exactly what they are risking while the smitten old fool is just a fool.  Cleveland has some kind of chance Kirk would want to stay or transition tag him and get a 3rd round pick as compensation.  It makes sense for Cleveland and because of Snyder it doesn't have to make sense for Washington, a suckers bet is Snyder's MO.

 

If they had Kirk in Cleveland at least the Browns would have a chance to win him over, they would never get Kirk or anyone remotely close to being a 28 year old All Pro QB to freely choose Cleveland.   The Skins save or redirect the 24M Cousins was going get to Danny's genius trade move, a super fat and lazy nose tackle and a broken QB like Romo and a trip to the Bahamas to celebrate Snyder's latest master stroke.

 

With as many picks that Cleveland has right now if they wanted Kirk and the team was willing to trade him they would. They aren't trading Kirk ain't happening

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, Skinz_4_life said:

No sir I didn't bring up rg3 another member did. The point of it was rg3 was "electrifying" under shannys scheme but was a disaster under grudens. 

 

Look man I agree cousin can run Gruden scheme very efficiently but there is something the organization is seeing that has them treading with caution... all I'm saying is I see it from both sides. 

 

Lower your pitch fork 

 

Dude, did you or did you not write this?

 

" Hmmmmm rg3 flourished in shanny's scheme before he wanted to become a pocket passer.. even won rookie of the year.. and I believe he was also voted number 3 on top 100 that year as a rookie."

 

And it was not really the Shanahan playbook, they had to try and recreate the Baylor playbook for Griffin. The Actual Shanahan Playbook came out when Cousins had to go in.

 

 

[Skinz_4_life]

2 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Dude, did you or did you not write this?

 

" Hmmmmm rg3 flourished in shanny's scheme before he wanted to become a pocket passer.. even won rookie of the year.. and I believe he was also voted number 3 on top 100 that year as a rookie."

 

And it was not really the Shanahan playbook, they had to try and recreate the Baylor playbook for Griffin. The Actual Shanahan Playbook came out when Cousins had to go in.

 

 

 

Guy, I don't care if it was Shanys scheme, Baylor coach guys scheme, tom cruises scheme... the point is in 2012 the scheme that we used played to Roberts strengths and he flourished.. if you were a redskins fan during those years you should remember he didn't want to run that offense anymore hence shanny jr. having to change the offense for bob to be a drop back passer which he was terrible at. 

 

Oh and after back tracking you was the one the brought up Robert. Please look at the point I'm trying to make and not the player.... guy 

[Morneblade]

3 minutes ago, Skinz_4_life said:

 

Guy, I don't care if it was Shanys scheme, Baylor coach guys scheme, tom cruises scheme... the point is in 2012 the scheme that we used played to Roberts strengths and he flourished.. if you were a redskins fan during those years you should remember he didn't want to run that offense anymore hence shanny jr. having to change the offense for bob to be a drop back passer which he was terrible at. 

 

Oh and after back tracking you was the one the brought up Robert. Please look at the point I'm trying to make and not the player.... guy 

 

It also got his knee blown out.

 

I know the point you're "trying" to make, you're just doing a horrible job defending it. Mostly because it's not really defendable.

 

RGIII can't run a NFL offense. He could only run a gimmik college offense.

 

Kirk Cousins has run multiple NFL offenses with success. Which you fail to acknowledge, even though I've pointed it our several times.

 

Your question, which I answered several times, is it the scheme or the player?

 

Since Andy Dalton never put up the kinds of numbers that Cousins has, with A.J. Green at WR?

 

It's the player. Clear enough for ya?

 

Just because Bruce Allen is a cheap **** has nothing to do with it.

 

 

[Skinz_4_life]

15 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

It also got his knee blown out.

 

I know the point you're "trying" to make, you're just doing a horrible job defending it. Mostly because it's not really defendable.

 

RGIII can't run a NFL offense. He could only run a gimmik college offense.

 

Kirk Cousins has run multiple NFL offenses with success. Which you fail to acknowledge, even though I've pointed it our several times.

 

Your question, which I answered several times, is it the scheme or the player?

 

Since Andy Dalton never put up the kinds of numbers that Cousins has, with A.J. Green at WR?

 

It's the player. Clear enough for ya?

 

Just because Bruce Allen is a cheap **** has nothing to do with it.

 

 

Ok man you win

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Shefter was on the radio today and was asked about Cousins. "I don't see a LTD getting done in Washington." It was his opinion, but needless to say the guy is plugged in everywhere.

 

if this is truly the case and we dont want to pony up, then isn't it imperative we trade him this year before or at the draft? 

To carry this uncertainty and tumult thru the year and into next offseason would be a roller coaster for everyone, I think I'd nip it in the bud if we know we are not paying. 

 

Potential suitors

49er's

Jets

Rams

Texans

cleveland

Jacksonville

 

if you don't get a nice booty in return then i guess u kee him for the year and try and figure something out, but yeesh already with all this.  crap or get off the pot.

 

 

 

[Wildbunny]

You can cross Jacksonville and the Rams off this list.

[markmills67]

One part that is bothering me with this whole Cousins saga is if the so called sticking point is guaranteed money why does it take so long to complete. We offer  $50m , they want $85m, we say we will not go over $70m, if they won't agree to that figure then trade him to the highest bidder. There you go 2 minutes to post this thread but both parties know the score, so sign or leave and our Redskins can move on. 

 

HTTR 

[Wildbunny]

Who's to say no side is gonna budge from their offer now when the deadline approaches?

It's part of the waiting game. We all know that Kirk is fine playing on the tag again. So our brass is trying to call his bluff and see if they don't move an inch come the deadline. And if they feel scared, they'll back off and offer what he asks for. Or they risk to have to go into a bidding war next year, which might not go well for us and would probably spell doom for Bruce.

 

So, we're playing the waiting game, just like Denver did with Von Miller last year.

[FrFan]

7 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

Shefter was on the radio today and was asked about Cousins. "I don't see a LTD getting done in Washington." It was his opinion, but needless to say the guy is plugged in everywhere.

Since it has been reported that Kirk was SMC's favorite QB, and knowing the couple of years tag drama, I'm wondering how Allen can convince him to sign a long term deal ?

 

[Est.1974]

Someone is going to pick up Romo.

 

The 3 teams picking in the top 6 of the draft are still a threat if this drags on another month.

[goskins10]

9 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

Shefter was on the radio today and was asked about Cousins. "I don't see a LTD getting done in Washington." It was his opinion, but needless to say the guy is plugged in everywhere.

 

edit

 

 

 

Schefter may truly believe that. But he also believed that about Von Miller last year. The point is that just when all appears lost the dreaded deadline comes and causes movement. Here are some headlines from Von Miller negotiations and one for Drew Brees.

 

BTW: I agree with Drew in that it should take less time. But he was free to back down and play for less. He did not so he was just as much the cause of the extended negotiations. I am not saying he should not have held out. It was worth a lot of money to him. But it's not just on the teams that it takes as long as it does.

 

If the next CBA changes the date to April 30th, these contracts would get done April 30th. Something I think they should change. The July 15th date is ridiculous. The actual time spent negotiating is likely less than a total of 40 hours. Yet they the timeline linger until July 15th. I am sure fans would need a lot less antacids if they would move the date to say just after the draft.  

 

Broncos set an artificial deadline where they threatened to pull the deal:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2016/06/08/von-miller-contract-denver/85605056/

 

Contract talks turn ugly:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/this-is-how-ugly-it-s-gotten-between-von-miller-and-broncos-014029461.html

 

Adam Schefter on the Von Miller negotiations on June 8th last year. A deal was done July 15th.

Adam Schefter‏Verified account @AdamSchefter 8 Jun 2016

Not to say it can't get done, but it will be very difficult for Denver and Von Miller to reach long-term agreement by July 15 deadline.

Retweets 201

• Likes 338
• 10:27 AM - 8 Jun 2016

 

July 15th - Broncos offer what Miller's team wanted all along:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17079694/denver-broncos-increase-latest-offer-von-miller

 

 

Drew Brees contract negotiations - June 26, 2012 - Brees unhappy being hit the tag. Frustrated it took that long. But ultimately signs and all is forgiven.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-26/news/sns-rt-fbn-saints-newssxcce48a4-20120626_1_drew-brees-franchise-tag-contract-talks

 

 

[Est.1974]

19 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

July 15th - Broncos offer what Miller's team wanted all along:

 

 

The Von Miller one is a poor example because in the end the Broncos FO rolled over and said tickle me. It was a wasted 4 months and in our case what would the benefit be of our FO posturing for that long just to give in. Kirks demands aren't going to lessen. 

 

To wait 4 months to strike a deal that could be done now would be poor management. Maybe we will wait all that time and save some imaginary $$$$$$ from 2021 of his deal or something.

 

I understand the premise that history shows a deal can be done before the deadline, I can't see any merits in our FO taking that long to do it this time around. Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

We are backed into a corner and the only way to get out is to pay the man what he wants. 

[XtremeFan55]

18 hours ago, Morneblade said:

 

It also got his knee blown out.

 

I know the point you're "trying" to make, you're just doing a horrible job defending it. Mostly because it's not really defendable.

 

RGIII can't run a NFL offense. He could only run a gimmik college offense.

 

Kirk Cousins has run multiple NFL offenses with success. Which you fail to acknowledge, even though I've pointed it our several times.

 

Your question, which I answered several times, is it the scheme or the player?

 

Since Andy Dalton never put up the kinds of numbers that Cousins has, with A.J. Green at WR?

 

It's the player. Clear enough for ya?

 

Just because Bruce Allen is a cheap **** has nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

We need to bury RG3.  The guy is unemployed, out of the NFL and running around down in Florida with his Estonian girlfriend.  Three respected quarterback/offensive coaches...Shanahan, Gruden and Hue Jackson...took a shot and decided he didn't have the right stuff to play in the NFL.   Meanwhile you have Cousins here on a franchise tag...let that sink in...FRANCHISE TAG....for second year which means the Redskins really, really want him but are too cheap to pay his value and you have another former coach drooling at the prospect of getting him.  Besides that...if Cousins were free to negotiate with any team this year, he would have had maybe a half dozen or more teams fighting for him and could have realistically ended up being the highest paid player in the NFL.

 

Rather than comparing Cousins to Brady, Rodgers, or Ryan....you need to think back to when a bonafide franchise quarterback in his prime was last available.  As long as Cousins does not sign a LTD, he is essentially available.  Either now or next year and that is an extremely hot commodity in a quarterback-driven league that doesn't even have 16 legitimate quarterbacks that can play the game at a high level.  Cousins can. RG3 can't....and RG3 is the poster child of what can go wrong picking a college quarterback.  

 

[goskins10]

Just now, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

The Von Miller one is a poor example because in the end the Broncos FO rolled over and said tickle me. It was a wasted 4 months and in our case what would the benefit be of our FO posturing for that long just to give in. Kirks demands aren't going to lessen. 

 

To wait 4 months to strike a deal that could be done now would be poor management. Maybe we will wait all that time and save some imaginary $$$$$$ from 2021 of his deal or something.

 

I understand the premise that history shows a deal can be done before the deadline, I can't see any merits in our FO taking that long to do it this time around. Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

We are backed into a corner and the only way to get out is to pay the man what he wants. 

 

Then 6 of the 8 teams that placed the exclusive tag on the players are under poor management. 5 signed the player on or after the July15th deadline (player did not sign the tender) and one signed them in late June. So since the Von Miller contract is consistent with 75% of the exact same situations, it is an exact example.

 

Sorry it does not fit your narrative but the facts are there. It's your right to ignore them but that will not change the facts.

 

Does this guarantee that Kirk gets signed? No. It does mean all this panic and chastising the team for not getting it done sooner is premature and shows a purposeful choice to ignore the mechanics of the process.

 

[Est.1974]

Think we should be treating our franchise QB a little differently. 

 

Simple question, Do do you think it is a good idea to wait 4 months then agree a deal that is on the table now ? Forget all the stats you keep bringing up, please clarify what is good about waiting, without using the answer that is what others have done. 

 

Where does the team benefit from that dogmatic approach in our specific case?

[bobandweave]

 

32 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

I understand the premise that history shows a deal can be done before the deadline, I can't see any merits in our FO taking that long to do it this time around. Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

We are backed into a corner and the only way to get out is to pay the man what he wants. 

 

The organization and Kirk himself have said repeatedly that a trade is out of the question. It's not gonna happen. If the contract won't get done before July the team will hold onto him this year and he will leave next offseason and we will get a compensatory pick. Unless that doesn't happen and he signs. Who knows at this point what's in store. From everything that's out there the teams not gonna budge on this barring some team (this I think will never happen) throwing out a redic offer they can't refuse. If that was in the works it would have already been done and it's not and now all the cap money is pretty much gone around the league.

 

The rest of the league is fine waiting for Kirk next year that won't cost them anything and probably feel that way because of the opinion he's not gonna sign long term. Why give up valuable draft picks and a boat load of cash for someone when all you really need is patience and a boat load of cash to get it done? This is what other teams are gonna think.

 

Last we heard the franchise number is at 24 million a season, the team offered him I think one of the admins here with insider knowledge said we offered him 23 a year. All of the news reported had us at 20 a year. Kirk's guys said that the talks happen when they get up to 24 a year. So if the teams offering 23 over 5 years, will Kirk's guys say No because they aren't getting that 5 million difference? If the teams offering 20 a year over 5 will Kirk's people say No to that because there is a difference of 20 million? Hard to say but I think they will say no to that. 20 is a big difference from 5.

 

 Speculating what could be our best option is a wasted effort because we know he is not going to be traded, Schefter may or may not be right in saying he won't sign long term, so all we can do is wait and see what happens. There is as much a chance he's here long term as there is he's gone and we **** this whole thing up (50-50) and lose him.

 

One thing I don't think will happen is what you said there and the team just bends over and pays him whatever he wants. That will not happen. Why should it because the moment that does happen every player and agent here on out would know the teams a pushover and that will cost us millions. Won't happen.

 

When your talking 100 million dollars, what is the big deal about 5 million really? I can see some issue with them being 20 off for the agent but who is stupid enough to advise someone that they should turn down 100 million dollars because he's really wants 105? No one. I think it gets done and he stays long term but I don't know and that's just a guess.

 

 

19 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

Think we should be treating our franchise QB a little differently. 

 

Simple question, Do do you think it is a good idea to wait 4 months then agree a deal that is on the table now ? Forget all the stats you keep bringing up, please clarify what is good about waiting, without using the answer that is what others have done. 

 

Where does the team benefit from that dogmatic approach in our specific case?

 

Answered it above. From the teams perspective, will the player decide that getting 105 is a "must" and turn down 100? Seems odd to me to do that. Is 5 a big deal when your talking about 100? Not really but this is big money ball being played by millionaires with massive egos so who knows. They both want to win. Good or Bad is indifferent. If they are having a pissing contest over 5 million difference that could go on forever and we have to accept that unless these men can come to a  Win-Win for everyone someone will lose. With Kirk having all of the leverage more then likely the team will lose. And that means we are starting over at QB next year because we've all seen this team is not afraid to move on from players who play hard ball with them.

 

You know what's crazy? As good as Drew Brees is, first ballot hall of famer/Superbowl winning QB, you know that it's been almost a decade since he was in the Superbowl? And that he's had multiple losing seasons in his career including the last three years in a row? Reason I bring him up is as much as we feel the QB is important Brees shows all of us that even when you have a top 5 QB every year getting to the playoffs isn't something you pencil in and say it's definitely gonna happen.