The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[Skinz_4_life]

2 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

Lots of things happened that way under Bruce leadership that didn't make a hint of sense as for the timing. If we were gonna let Barry go, why not do that in week 13 or 14 last season and give our new DC a chance to show how the guys would do for him in real life situations? Why did they wait until the day of the combine to let the public know Scot wasn't there? Timing for Bruce has always been awful

Gruden is in charge of his own staff not Bruce.

[Est.1974]

11 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

So, if Kirk gets around the high 50's or low 60s I think he'd sign.  After all, it really is all about the guaranteed contract.  Everything else is monopoly money. 

 

Totally agree. He's looking at 60mil over two years without a LTD so that's the base number set.

 

5/125 with 60gtd would be my conservative guess at the base asking price.

[Veryoldschool]

23 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not that I feel like this is a good way to do business, but couldn't the Skins simply play hardball and tell him they are going to ship him off to Cleveland where they plan to transition tag him after the 2017 season and keep him there in football hell for a few years?

 

 

 

I'm not sure how scary that would be to Cousins, it might look like a wash.  Kirk and his receivers made the Skins look a lot better than the Browns, but if Kirk is throwing for the Browns next season it might be role reversal.  I don't think the Cleveland fans are going to be unfavorably comparing a very good Cousins in 2017 to perfection, that would be a plus.  The Browns don't have a town full of butt hurt Griffin fans that resent Kirk and Cleveland has running game unlike the Skins.  Remember how the Browns pounded it on the Skins last year?    This is getting much less scary.

 

I'm not suggesting Kirk or anyone else would be excited about going to Cleveland because their owner is also a wack job and the weather really sucks but maybe the Browns  wack job owner wouldn't blow things up if he ever got it going unlike Snyder.  So unless Kirk signs a long term deal  the Browns get a 1 year rental.  They pay 24M for year 1 and put the transition tag on him and get compensation when Kirk negotiates with another team.  Would the Browns want to trade a second round pick and pay Kirk 24M for making it respectable a year and a chance to maybe win him over?  Why not?  Worse case they get a third pick as comp in 2018.  From Snyder's perspective the Skins get a 2nd round pick and save 24M in cap space so Fantasy League Danny has more to work with 2017 to make a big splash!  Deal Maker Dan can save the day!  

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Taylor 36 said:

The truth is that the FO took it this far.  Cousins didn't tag himself two years in a row.  The FO did that, and, by doing so, they pushed up his "worth" by pushing up his guaranteed salary, essentially pushing up his team's asking price.  No other franchise has had "a QB willing to do so" because no other franchise has ever tagged their franchise QB two years in a row. This is 100% on the FO.  Kirk is only playing the game that the FO bought, opened, shuffled, and dealt for him.

 

Without being in the know, it's impossible for you to state one side being  %100 responsible. 

 

I also don't see fault in this situation. One side can't laud Kirk for maximizing his earning potential and trash the other side for trying their best to work a deal out. It's a business situation all around for both sides. 

 

if Kirk gets signed to a long term deal, no "fault" has taken place. 

[Skinz_4_life]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Without being in the know, it's impossible for you to state one side being  %100 responsible. 

 

I also don't see fault in this situation. One side can't laud Kirk for maximizing his earning potential and trash the other side for trying their best to work a deal out. It's a business situation all around for both sides. 

 

if Kirk gets signed to a long term deal, no "fault" has taken place. 

 

Exacty! It's a business! Both sides are right on the respective ends. Kirk has proven that he can be elite, but he hasn't won a single playoff game. That giants game really hurt his stock because he really laid an egg. There is no right or wrong, we could sign him to a LTD and he becomes a flacco or a kapernick big contract crippling the team to get a solid supporting cast or he could be a breez, Rogers or Big Ben with the ability to completely play lights out and possibly win a Super Bowl. It's a toss up both sides are valid 

[Bang]

Frankly, at this point, i'm content to wait. A signing before the draft leaves trades still open. Once we pass the draft, i'll feel better, because then it's LTD or bust.

 

~Bang

[Taylor 36]

20 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Every competent QB has leverage in the NFL, it's just Kirk is the first to have taken it this far. Literally every competent QB can do this to their franchise when there deal is up, but of course the Skins have to be so lucky to have a QB willing to do so.

 

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Without being in the know, it's impossible for you to state one side being  %100 responsible. 

 

I also don't see fault in this situation. One side can't laud Kirk for maximizing his earning potential and trash the other side for trying their best to work a deal out. It's a business situation all around for both sides. 

 

if Kirk gets signed to a long term deal, no "fault" has taken place. 

My response was to your post (the one quoted at the top) which appears that you are faulting Kirk, and even basically saying he is the only QB that is willing to do this.  Again, see your first quoted post above.  He didn't take anything "this far."  That is 100% on the FO, and everyone is in the know about that just looking at the facts.  The FO tagged him two years in a row.  That is unprecedented, which is the only reason that the "Skins have to be so lucky to have a QB willing to do so."  They are the only FO willing to use the EFT on their franchise QB two years in a row.  So, yes, the FO is 100% responsible for creating this situation and giving Kirk's team the leverage they have.  (If you aren't faulting Kirk, than we are in agreement, but that's how I read the first part of your post).

 

Now, that doesn't mean I blame the FO.  Last season, they wanted to see more before committing so much to him.  I get that.  This offseason, they figured they would use the tag again to prevent him from getting snagged by another team while giving themselves four and a half extra months to negotiate, I get that as well. I wish they would have just worked out a LTD prior to this, but I can be patient and wait for them to hopefully get something done between now and July 15th.  

 

On the other hand,  I don't and can't blame Kirk for using this unprecedented move by the FO to get the best deal possible. The FO pushed up the price tag more than Kirk and his team would have probably done in normal negotiations, and they are taking advantage of this once in a career opportunity.  

 

You are absolutely right in your last post that this is a business situation, and each side is trying to handle their business.  However, the FO is the one who has allowed it to go this far, so it is 100% on them that Kirk is in the position to seek the contract he is seeking.  I hope all of that makes sense.  

[TheShredder]

There's a leverage swing in motion....Kirk had all the leverage until now.  Since he doesn't want to be traded and specifically not to Cleveland, that's started some motion.  Leading up to the draft will only increase the leverage in the Skins favor.  They've got to strike a LTD and use this leverage.  They'll lose some of the leverage after the draft, but not all of it.  He's already negotiated at $100m over 5-years and the hang up from KC agent is the guaranteed money.  He will get 60M range guaranteed or he won't sign it. 

[XtremeFan55]

23 hours ago, petedaddy said:

 

Kirk also said he was fine to let the market decide his value, but at least our FO isn't quite that dumb

 

The market just decided Cousins is worth at least $24 million a year because that is what he will be paid in 2017.

 

However...if Cousins had hit the market without a tag...there was a good chance that many teams would have made a bid on him.  49ers, Browns, Jets, Chicago to name a few would have made a serious push to sign him and I believe Cousins could have received a $125 million, 5 year deal with close to $80 million guaranteed.

 

without the trade implications due to the tag...teams would have made serious offers.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, XtremeFan55 said:

 

The market just decided Couins is worth at least $24 million a year because that is what he will be paid in 2017.

 

 

The CBA decided that, not the market.

[RedskinsMayne]

yes, the market is probably higher.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 minutes ago, RedskinsMayne said:

yes, the market is probably higher.

 

Yep, very well could be...

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Califan007 said:

 

The CBA decided that, not the market.

 

How does CBA come up with that number? Aren't they looking around the league and saying this is what a QB is worth now since the going rate has been set higher by the Texans now?

[wit33]

8 hours ago, Taylor 36 said:

 

You are absolutely right in your last post that this is a business situation, and each side is trying to handle their business.  However, the FO is the one who has allowed it to go this far, so it is 100% on them that Kirk is in the position to seek the contract he is seeking.  I hope all of that makes sense.  

 

Just like Kirk is sticking up for his QB buddies with future deals in mind, the Skins must stay strong for all organizations. There's just no way to give one side 100% without any known facts, you know. Kirk continues to bet on himself, it's just not as great of a risk for QBs in today's game, as the money has become so outrageous. We'll see if it turns into a trend. 

 

It will be a sad day if the NFL were to become a player driven league, much like the NBA has become. I'll pass, that's just me. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

6 hours ago, zskins said:

 

How does CBA come up with that number? Aren't they looking around the league and saying this is what a QB is worth now since the going rate has been set higher by the Texans now?

 

The CBA determines the number for a franchised QB, no matter who it is...it didn't determine the market value for Cousins. The Redskins determined Cousins "market value" for them alone, and for 1 year.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

13 hours ago, TheShredder said:

There's a leverage swing in motion....Kirk had all the leverage until now.  Since he doesn't want to be traded and specifically not to Cleveland, that's started some motion.  Leading up to the draft will only increase the leverage in the Skins favor.  They've got to strike a LTD and use this leverage.  They'll lose some of the leverage after the draft, but not all of it.  He's already negotiated at $100m over 5-years and the hang up from KC agent is the guaranteed money.  He will get 60M range guaranteed or he won't sign it. 

 

If Kirk Cousins is willing to play here on a one-year deal, we have no leverage. We can't trade him anywhere if he doesn't want to sign a LTD with the other team. So, we could TRY to trade him to Cleveland, but he could simply refuse to hammer out a deal with them and there'd be no trade. As it's been, the only leverage we truly have is Snyder's checkbook. 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

The CBA determines the number for a franchised QB, no matter who it is...it didn't determine the market value for Cousins. The Redskins determined Cousins "market value" for them alone, and for 1 year.

 

Got it. Thanks Cali! You are the best.

[slaga]

16 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

If Kirk Cousins is willing to play here on a one-year deal, we have no leverage. We can't trade him anywhere if he doesn't want to sign a LTD with the other team. So, we could TRY to trade him to Cleveland, but he could simply refuse to hammer out a deal with them and there'd be no trade. As it's been, the only leverage we truly have is Snyder's checkbook. 

Once Kirk signed the franchise tag, the Redskins could trade him (that 1 year contract) to any team they want and Kirk's only recourse is to not play. Kirk does not have to agree to a LTD in order to get traded. As long as the team receiving Kirk's 1 year franchise tag contract is fine with the 1 year rental, the Redskins can trade Kirk to any team they want without Kirk's input whatsoever. There was a reason Kirk's discussions with Danny and Allen happened right before he signed. Kirk was gauging the Redskins' interest in trading him to Cleveland.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, slaga said:

Once Kirk signed the franchise tag, the Redskins could trade him (that 1 year contract) to any team they want and Kirk's only recourse is to not play. Kirk does not have to agree to a LTD in order to get traded. As long as the team receiving Kirk's 1 year franchise tag contract is fine with the 1 year rental, the Redskins can trade Kirk to any team they want without Kirk's input whatsoever. There was a reason Kirk's discussions with Danny and Allen happened right before he signed. Kirk was gauging the Redskins' interest in trading him to Cleveland.

 

Well of course, but what team would give away assets to be in the situation we are in right now? 

[slaga]

15 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Well of course, but what team would give away assets to be in the situation we are in right now? 

A team more in position to win now that lacks a good QB. A team that needs to spend $60 mil to meet the salary cap floor the NFL requires. They already have to spend the money anyway, why not on a decent QB, even if it is a 1 year rental? The money would be a sunk cost. In reality, Cleveland would only be out the pick(s) they would have to trade because they have to spend the money anyway.

[TheGreek1973]

17 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

Totally agree. He's looking at 60mil over two years without a LTD so that's the base number set.

 

5/125 with 60gtd would be my conservative guess at the base asking price.

This but about 75+ GTD would do it IMO.  No reports that he wants less than 4 or 5 years, but the way Rodgers got blind sided with his contract (what I mean is the cap going up so much since he signed) I bet QBs will push for only 4 with a lot of gtd money.

[Est.1974]

16 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said:

This but about 75+ GTD would do it IMO.  No reports that he wants less than 4 or 5 years, but the way Rodgers got blind sided with his contract (what I mean is the cap going up so much since he signed) I bet QBs will push for only 4 with a lot of gtd money.

I agree on the 4 year thing. Works here too as that fits with Grudens deal. So you could go 4/100 with 65-70 gtd. You basically fully commit for 3 years which I guess under a LTD for a QB is the way it should be.

[Taylor 36]

5 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

I agree on the 4 year thing. Works here too as that fits with Grudens deal. 

Good point!  I would think that, even if minimally, the Gruden deal will factor into some of the thoughts on both sides during negotiations.

[TheGreek1973]

12 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

Good point!  I would think that, even if minimally, the Gruden deal will factor into some of the thoughts on both sides during negotiations.

I am sure it does.  I am more hopeful KC will sign a LTD now that Gruden has been extended.  If you think about it, why would KC want to go anywhere else if we get close to what he should be getting anyway.  He has two young guys to throw to in Doctson, Crowder and Pryor can be the next AJ Green if he continues to improve.  He also has his OL with a couple of guys on the right side getting into their very productive years, plus his sure handed TE.  Best of all if he continues to be successful next contract at 32 or 33 would be worth HUGE money.

[desertbeagle85]

4 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

If Kirk Cousins is willing to play here on a one-year deal, we have no leverage. We can't trade him anywhere if he doesn't want to sign a LTD with the other team. So, we could TRY to trade him to Cleveland, but he could simply refuse to hammer out a deal with them and there'd be no trade. As it's been, the only leverage we truly have is Snyder's checkbook. 

 

 

Thank you

 

For anyone that thinks Kirk doesn't have the leverage because of signing the tag.

 

Well you're wrong

 

Like this gentleman has said there isn't a team out there that will trade for Kirk if he doesn't sign a long term deal with that team.