Kosher Ham Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Super consumers...not sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Kosher Ham said: Super consumers...not sustainable. Coherent point...not made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Ha. It is very clear and pertinent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 15 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said: Ha. It is very clear and pertinent. You mean having massive consumer debt isn't sustainable?? Whaaaaat? Crazy talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 On 1/8/2017 at 10:40 AM, Springfield said: The point is to keep the Mexicans out of America, right? That is the end game. If I'm wrong, please correct me. What would work better? Building a wall, or propping up their economy so that Mexicans want to stay in Mexico. Helping their government to fight corruption and clean out drug cartels, or building a wall. Not only that, but if Mexico is a half decent place then I'd bet all the other Spanish speaking Central and South Americans would rather go there instead. I thought the end game was securing the southern border, for two major reasons; crime and control over immigration. The Mexican economy is not under the US's control. We can't wave our hands and make them a stable advanced state just because we want to. We can help, and I'm certainly onboard with helping, but they aren't a sandbox for the US to play in. Likewise Mexican illegal immigration laws, are also not under US control. They are much harsher than they are here which is likely intended to encourage them to keep moving north as much as it is to stop them from sneaking in to begin with. if the goal is to help Mexico, secure the southern border (it hurts cartels and other criminals) and create a robust guest worker program in addition to an easily navigated immigration system for those that find gainful employment and wish to stay. Leaving the border as is doesn't strike me as an ideal path forward for either country. Oh and also, since we're talking about helping, find a way to get Americans to stop buying illegal drugs that come through Mexico. That would be a huge help. I will stress however that this is not the same thing as building a wall (fence). A fence won't stop anyone, merely delay them. I'd like to see an explanation for why that brief delay is worth the cost. Seems to me that if they manned the border with enough people and technology to secure it, the fence really wouldn't make much of a difference. I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Destino said: I thought the end game was securing the southern border, for two major reasons; crime and control over immigration. I will stress however that this is not the same thing as building a wall (fence). A fence won't stop anyone, merely delay them. I'd like to see an explanation for why that brief delay is worth the cost. Seems to me that if they manned the border with enough people and technology to secure it, the fence really wouldn't make much of a difference. I could be wrong. This is where I'm at too (we can debate who should be let in to the country and on what terms, but there is no question that it should be a US decision that cannot be easily overcome by insistence and ingenuity of border crossers). And active control by some combination of sufficient manpower and technological surveillance (with enforcement personnel available nearby) seems to be a far better solution than a passive obstacle like a wall/fence. If the wall/fence is unmanned, then all you need is time and tools. If the wall/fence is going to be manned or actively monitored, why do you need the wall/fence in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weganator Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I think you need some combination of active and passive defensive strategies in order to secure the border. The quality of the obstruction allows for an increased possible response time to an incursion / illegal entry. But if there is no active monitoring / response whatsoever to the incursion, the obstruction is merely a deterrent, not actual security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 18 minutes ago, bearrock said: This is where I'm at too (we can debate who should be let in to the country and on what terms, but there is no question that it should be a US decision that cannot be easily overcome by insistence and ingenuity of border crossers). And active control by some combination of sufficient manpower and technological surveillance (with enforcement personnel available nearby) seems to be a far better solution than a passive obstacle like a wall/fence. If the wall/fence is unmanned, then all you need is time and tools. If the wall/fence is going to be manned or actively monitored, why do you need the wall/fence in the first place? a virtual fence is certainly acceptable to me, the real wall (at least in spots) reduces the manpower needed though and restricts vehicles allowing response time. a common tactic is to draw border patrol to one area in response then cross at another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 24 minutes ago, twa said: a virtual fence is certainly acceptable to me, the real wall (at least in spots) reduces the manpower needed though and restricts vehicles allowing response time. a common tactic is to draw border patrol to one area in response then cross at another. Sure, I think strategic wall/fence placement makes sense and am sure would have to be part of an overall effective strategy. The Great Wall of China comparison and how we're gonna get Mexico to pay for it seems nonsensical to me. Like a lot of things, setting aside the my way or the highway politics would result in finding a lot of common ground on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ The percentage of Mexicans entering into the country illegally has been declining for years, while the numbers for non-Mexicans has been increasing. Building a wall is not only an enormous waste of money, but it accomplishes very little in doing what Trump claimed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Gamebreaker said: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ The percentage of Mexicans entering into the country illegally has been declining for years, while the numbers for non-Mexicans has been increasing. Building a wall is not only an enormous waste of money, but it accomplishes very little in doing what Trump claimed to do. there are still plenty crossing the Mexico border, of all nationalities....a wall does not stop just Mexicans However if you prefer to focus on denying them work,housing and care I'm willing to listen.....how effective would those be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Can we get one built on the border of Florida? Maybe a mile or two high? It's effing cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 14 hours ago, twa said: there are still plenty crossing the Mexico border, of all nationalities....a wall does not stop just Mexicans A wall doesn't stop anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 32 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said: A wall doesn't stop anybody. So why do we have one between the US and Mexico in other places? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: So why do we have one between the US and Mexico in other places? Bad ideas have a starting point somewhere, I guess. How does a wall stop tunnels and ladders? How does a wall stop airplanes that carry future illegal immigrants on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Just now, Gamebreaker said: Bad ideas have a starting point somewhere, I guess. How does a wall stop tunnels and ladders? How does a wall stop airplanes that carry future illegal immigrants on it? That's sort of like arguing we shouldnt have locks on our doors. A border wall wont keep EVERYONE out, but it will prevent MOST people from entering. The issue is, as always, the cost. If we could build a 20 foot high wall with 20 feet under ground etc we'd probably do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 57 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said: A wall doesn't stop anybody. I hear Obama is building a wall around his new house......but I bet the guys with bullets can stop people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Gamebreaker said: A wall doesn't stop anybody. I bet some people who used to live in East Berlin would disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanboyOf91 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 21 hours ago, Gamebreaker said: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/ The percentage of Mexicans entering into the country illegally has been declining for years, while the numbers for non-Mexicans has been increasing. Building a wall is not only an enormous waste of money, but it accomplishes very little in doing what Trump claimed to do. The wall also doesn't stop the large number of illegals who overstay their visas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Admiring the parallels between the current argument, and the people arguing that we must not permit any gun laws whatsoever, because existing gun laws to not stop gun crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Larry said: Admiring the parallels between the current argument, and the people arguing that we must not permit any gun laws whatsoever, because existing gun laws to not stop gun crimes. who is arguing no gun laws whatsoever? some dude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 1 hour ago, twa said: who is arguing no gun laws whatsoever? some dude? You. Every single time anybody proposes a gun control law, and you point out that existing laws did not prevent (this week's mass shooting). And every single time you (or someone else) points out that criminals break laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 That would be asserting we have enough gun laws, can you guess how many we have? tis true a law never stopped anything.....certainly not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 @Larry yea I think you overstepped saying he didn't think we should have any gun laws. Over exaggeration doesn't help your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Umm, why did we go from "border wall" to "gun laws"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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