Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

It was thrown by bartenders to get their attention because they were talking during the anthem.  

 

Clear?

great, so then they followed the American tradition of violence being the answer.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

The "support the military" thing is starting to make me nervous, and has for the last couple years.

 

 

I totally understand that idolization of the militay can be bad, but.... where are we going with this. The military overall has had a positive influence on your life, no? I’m trying to imagine where the united states would be without a strong military and it is kind of hard to picture it leading anywhere good.

 

Anyway, “support the military”  has to do with the idolization of foot soldies, not the leadership. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Bozo the kKklown]

56 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

They should have picked up the ice and thrown it back. Forced “respect” or “patriotism” by way of physical violence and threats doesn’t help their position and seems to go against the ideals this country was founded on. 

It is sadly exactly what this country was founded.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I totally understand that idolization of the militay can be bad, but.... where are we going with this. The military overall has had a positive influence on your life, no? I’m trying to imagine where the united states would be without a strong military and it is kind of hard to picture it leading anywhere good.

 

Anyway, idolization of the military has to do with the foot soldies, not the leadership. 

It's a ploy to support the military even when they're in situations they shouldn't be in.  

 

It feels like every other commercial is supporting the military, politicians compete with each other on who supports the military more.  It's just words at that point, our policies don't indicate the level of support we claim to give to them.  They are underpaid, especially several enlisted positions (why so many can't wait to get out if doing IT to work in private sector), the rape situations is beyond embarrassing, and again, the VA is an absolute joke.  For me, we need to stop talking about how much we love our military and actually show it.  

 

So much of that DoD budget is going to R&D and contractors its not even funny, talk less, more results.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Oh, i though you were suggesting it was dangerous. As a cheap money grab by companies and politicians trying to get people in the military to buy their crap, then i’m with you.

Edited May 24, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Renegade7]

21 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Oh, i though you were suggesting it was dangerous. As a cheap money grab by companies and politicians trying to get people in the military to buy their crap, then i’m with you.

Both.  We're being conditioned to support the military no matter what, DoD is literally paying entities to show military appreciation.  They shouldn't be doing that, they shouldn't have to be doing that, I can't think of a positive reason for DoD to be doing that.

 

Edit:  If your response is to question my support for the military, you prove my point.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Renegade7

[Bang]

6 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

 

I totally understand that idolization of the militay can be bad, but.... where are we going with this. The military overall has had a positive influence on your life, no? I’m trying to imagine where the united states would be without a strong military and it is kind of hard to picture it leading anywhere good.

 

Anyway, “support the military”  has to do with the idolization of foot soldies, not the leadership. 

the point is not that the military is bad, it's that blind cheerleading national symbols and militarism has never been good for any society. Once it becomes a natural blank check of zealous support, the slopes get slippery. Throughout history, societies that follow this path inevitably become aggressive and eventually need to be destroyed.

There is nothing inherently wrong with supporting our military. It's the people who demand that support without any checks on why it is given, and without any conscience towards what that fervor actually does that are the problem. 

Blind devotion to symbolism and militarism leads to actions of conquest and oppression. For the last 20 or so years, we've been Pavlov's dog when it comes to this. We are conditioned to not question anymore, to cheer blindly and chant USA as if these things do not enable what history shows is is practically inevitable.

Watch a Trump rally. See it in action. too many people do not separate any distinction in what any of it means. To them it means superiority and forcing their will, shouting down anyone who dares go against their grain and question any of it.

Now lets keep giving these people power. What do you think will happen? 

(Spoiler: they will keep finding reasons to send our kids off to fight. In regimes like this and attitudes like we see on display among their followers, it is the only thing they have to control power..  keeping us angry and fearful, and directing that anger and fear towards their chosen scapegoats. Mexicans, Muslims, and so on. Eventually the firebrand rhetoric that they are so attracted to isn't enough anymore, and they have to act on their fearmongering to keep control. Then we get talks like "Final Solutions" and things like that. 

History... blah blah blah learn something something repeat it. Who cares. USA! USA USBARK!UBARK!BARK!BARK!BARK! BARK!

Good boy.

 

~Bang

Edited May 24, 2018 by Bang

[No Excuses]

This is what PC policing really looks like:

 

 

[Bang]

"Maybe you shouldn't be in the country"

 

not too long a step to 'maybe you should be in this camp"

 

It is the inevitable direction these things take. Kilmeade's comment is by design, and this sentiment will grow just like it is supposed to, and just like it has in the past anywhere else words like this have been uttered. Fox is state propaganda, and we know it. 

 

Ask yourself. When they discuss their Final Solution, on which side of the fence do you think they will put you?

 

~Bang

[Llevron]

Oh I know exactly where they want to put me. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

@Bang

 

“We are conditioned to not question anymore, to cheer blindly and chant USA as if these things do not enable what history shows is is practically inevitable.”

 

 

All americans do is question. At there are a dozen talkshows devoted to questioning. The media constantly questions. We question so much we wonder if 9/11 was an inside job. Americans are constantly questioning. Americans don’t blindly believe the military is just. Hence the fact we know about the incidents of torture, the systematic problems with rape, and the problems with the va. Not because americans blindly idolize their military.  It’s not even close.

 

about than 50 percent of the country doesn’t think you should have to stand for the anthem....

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Zguy28]

54 minutes ago, Bang said:

"Maybe you shouldn't be in the country"

 

not too long a step to 'maybe you should be in this camp"

 

It is the inevitable direction these things take. Kilmeade's comment is by design, and this sentiment will grow just like it is supposed to, and just like it has in the past anywhere else words like this have been uttered. Fox is state propaganda, and we know it. 

 

Ask yourself. When they discuss their Final Solution, on which side of the fence do you think they will put you?

 

~Bang

I can only hope to live up to the legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Zguy28

[Renegade7]

53 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

about than 50 percent of the country doesn’t think you should have to stand for the anthem....

 

I'm not a math wizards, but by my calculations, that means 50 percent of the country does.

 

I'm one of the most optimistic people in here on this topic, believe the Blue Wave is real and Trump will be a one term president.  Having said that, I know if I'm wrong the odds of @Bang being right increase ten-fold.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Renegade7

[Zguy28]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm not a math wizards, but by my calculations, that means 50 percent of the country does.

 

I'm one of the most optimistic people in here on this topic, believe the Blue Wave is real and Trump will be a one term president.  Having said that, I know if I'm wrong the odds of Bang being right increase ten-fold.

This ain't Star Wars, be careful with trusting your feelings and/or confusing them for knowledge.

[Renegade7]

Just now, Zguy28 said:

This ain't Star Wars, be careful with trusting your feelings and/or confusing them for knowledge.

Again, I'm an optimist, but I'm not basing this on hyperbole, we've seen this in other countries, just not here.  I'm not sold it will ever get to the point of death camps, but Trump is absolutely following a playbook towards authoritarianism, discrediting checks on his power, demanding loyalty pledges, ete, dude even wants a military parade.  He HAS to go, there are too many people in this country fine with him being president because they are getting what they want out of it.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Americans are constantly questioning. Americans don’t blindly believe the military is just. Hence the fact we know about the incidents of torture, the systematic problems with rape, and the problems with the va. Not because americans blindly idolize their military.  It’s not even close.

 

But the conversation during the Iraq war was basically anyone that opposed the war on legitimate grounds was anti-troop, anti-military and branded anti-american. "Either support the troops which means don't criticize or discuss the war or the get the **** out of the country" was all too common. 

 

This even became a factor during the 04 election because Kerry had been very vocal about his Vietnam experiences upon returning and was charged as being unAmerican and unpatriotic

[Bang]

2 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

@Bang

 

“We are conditioned to not question anymore, to cheer blindly and chant USA as if these things do not enable what history shows is is practically inevitable.”

 

 

All americans do is question. At there are a dozen talkshows devoted to questioning. The media constantly questions. We question so much we wonder if 9/11 was an inside job. Americans are constantly questioning. Americans don’t blindly believe the military is just. Hence the fact we know about the incidents of torture, the systematic problems with rape, and the problems with the va. Not because americans blindly idolize their military.  It’s not even close.

 

about than 50 percent of the country doesn’t think you should have to stand for the anthem....

 

 

 

 

there is a major difference between questioning and being contrary so as to establish narrative.

The major difference being "questioning" is to seek an answer

What we see all too often is establishing answers, then question those who do not adhere to it so as to discredit them. If questioning was what was actually happening, truth would matter. But it doesn't. Side of the aisle is more important than truth to a lot of people.

 

Hardly any of those talk shows "question".

They establish narrative, and convince people they are only asking questions, and this is what truth we have learned.

 

The fact is that "Americans" is a HUGE body, but it doesn't take the entire body to press the rest into submission. In all of those cultures in the past that have walked this path of destruction, there were plenty of people who saw what was happening. And as i have said in the past here,, often evil takes root because good people findit hard to believe the irrational aspect of them and expect to be able to give answers to their "questions".

 

For example. We have roughly 30% of our population who "question" all the time. But they have shown time and time again that truth is not what they are interested in. Do you think Hannity and his legion are simply asking questions to glean truth?

They ignore truth,.

It is propaganda, and propaganda's final goal is to condition response.

 

Right now the President has been trying to lay the groundwork for shutting down our avenues to legitimately question, and his followers are enabling it.

Propaganda takes a while. Trump slowly but steadily drops hints about removing the media (except the ones he likes), he even said in as campaign speech that maybe there was a 2nd amendment solution to his CNN problem. Every single night at every single rally there is the obligatory turn around and scream at the press pool in the room. Threaten them. Trump eggs them on and riles them up.

Trump has now on 2 occasions mentioned how he admires China's decision to establish their president for life, and a couple of sweeks ago suggested "many are saying" that his presidency should extend beyond 8 years. (To wild cheers)

Every time he does this, every time these talk shows propagandize (ie: Hannity..  think his questions have any desire to find any truth except the one he is trying to create?).. it firms up the road.

 

One way to make a compliant population is enforced nationalism, worship of symbolism, and weaponized militaristic zeal. Right now if you question why the military does this or that, you are not supporting the troops, and a good many people will not listen to what you are saying because they are offended that you don't just blindly support. I respect our military, but to believe any military is not capable of the worst is naive. We are proud of our military, but our military also committed atrocities at Mai Lai, and other incidents. But the nuance of what is actually being called out is lost by the thickheaded notion of "support our troops" means 100% no matter what... which is 100% true for a lot of people.

 

Using your half and half measurement, the issue is this...  50% of the country thinks you don't have to stand. The other 50% does, and of that group, a solid percentage would be violent in their response to people not standing. Plenty of videos from last season of people being attacked in the stands for not standing.

Good people rely on reason, and expect that because that is the right thing to do, other people will as well.

But the others don't give a **** about reason, and by the time the good people have exhausted the 'civilized' ways of  dealing with people who have no intention in dealing with them, it's too late.
there is a solid group who couldn't care less about truth, and in fact get great pleasure out of exasperating those who desperately try to give them the truth. Demands of blind unflinching fealty is what they consider patriotism.

That makes them very easy to exploit with "questions".

 

~Bang

Edited May 24, 2018 by Bang

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Yes. People have different opinions on things.  That’s a lot different then “we are conditioned not to question anymore”

 

if you want to make the argument “we are conditioned not to question our side” that is a fair argument.  Otherwise there are plenty of people questioning everything, even facts.

 

”everyone wants to change the world, no one wants to change themselves”

Edited May 24, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Bang]

19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Again, I'm an optimist, but I'm not basing this on hyperbole, we've seen this in other countries, just not here.  I'm not sold it will ever get to the point of death camps, but Trump is absolutely following a playbook towards authoritarianism, discrediting checks on his power, demanding loyalty pledges, ete, dude even wants a military parade.  He HAS to go, there are too many people in this country fine with him being president because they are getting what they want out of it.

Love your optimism,, wish i shared it.

Unfortunately, history shows once authoritarians take power, they have to remove those who would question and fight back.

And then the rest of the ugliness happens... camps, disappearances, slavery, conquest..  it is the path authoritarians must take. There isn't any other way to go. When your entire cult of personality is built on pointing fingers at others (all your problems are because of the liberals...  the mexicans are why you are poor. Muslims want to kill you and God..) then eventually you have to act on it or you lose that power. And as the path continues, those who fall onto the wrong side of things increases and increases, because you always need a new scapegoat to direct the mob against.

 

They came for my neighbor, and isaid nothing.

then they came for my other neighbor and i said nothing

then they came for me.

 

If everything is someone else's fault, there always needs to be someone paying the price. Eventually that will be you.

 

~bang

[TheGreatBuzz]

10 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

Which is why they should be upset people are making it seem like they either dont care or agree that the players shouldn't protest. 

 

Think of how fast this **** would have been over if a branch of the military officially weighed in on that stance? 

 

Done. Nothing else to talk about. See you next Sunday. But I guess it's an effort not to be political. Which is exactly what the NFL is doing with thos policy. Which I guess is why I dont like it. 

 

Something I think people need to remember about free speech.  The person yelling "Hey **** stick, stand up!"  is also exercising free speech.  And the 1st only prevents the government from suppressing your speech.  A business has the right to set their own rules.  Which is why I support the NFL doing this.  And everyone has a right to let the NFL know how they feel, either with voice or wallet.  I wonder how many people screaming about the NFL players would support a cashier at McDonalds saying "go back to your country, wetback" to every Hispanic looking customer as a protest to current immigration policy.  Free speech is easy to support when you agree with the position.  The measure of a person is can you support free speech when you don't agree with the message.  Free speech is a double edged sword.

 

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Military deals aren't because they support anyone, its because they know they can go to your CO if you fall behind on payments.  The state of our VA shows how much "support" they actually get.  NFL charges the military for their "support".

 

Actually, it is illegal for a debtor to go to your CO and has been so for a number of years now.  Military deals are (in my opinion) mostly about getting customers in the door, just like any other deal.

 

8 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Both.  We're being conditioned to support the military no matter what, DoD is literally paying entities to show military appreciation.  They shouldn't be doing that, they shouldn't have to be doing that, I can't think of a positive reason for DoD to be doing that.

 

Edit:  If your response is to question my support for the military, you prove my point.

DoD pays because it is a recruiting tool.  And it has actually shown to quite an effective one.  Same as the Blue Angels.  And a lot of who they target for recruitment watch sports.  So that is why they spend money on it.  NFL though gives an extremely discounted rate for the time compared to if they gave that time to Coke or something.  So the NFL is showing military appreciation.  Just not as cheaply as you would like.

 

I'm staying out of the "should you stand" argument.  It has been had already and I doubt anything productive will come out of arguing it again.  And I'm going to stay out of the "how much should you support the military" argument because I don't want to get banned.  I just wanted to clear up a few facts.

[Bang]

12 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Yes. People have different opinions on things.  That’s a lot different then “we are conditioned not to question anymore”

 

if you want to make the argument “we are conditioned not to question our side” that is a fair argument.  Otherwise there are plenty of people questioning everything, even facts.

 

”everyone wants to change the world, no one wants to change themselves”

 

So when does reality set in?

Conditioning is happening. Denying it means you've already been affected, or the history of these things should be checked. (And know this CC84,, i don't think you are stupid.. we are arguing points, i am not lumping you with these folks )

 

The entire point i am making is that we are seeing the tools of propaganda at work. Renegade is right, it is a path toward authoritarianism. (I don't think they are even hiding it very well anymore. I think they feel that enough  of their support is of that blind type and will defend whatever they say, and never listen to those who see right through it. )

 

 One of the methods is to establish fealty to symbols and militarism. 
Those legitimately questioning are being shouted down. the president and his band gaslight every moment of the day. Their followers simply believe they are right because of who they are, no other reason.  Look at how many of their values they have already thrown away.
 

 

It should not be ignored that we are following in the footsteps of the worst history has to offer.

 

~Bang

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Bang

[Bozo the kKklown]

4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Something I think people need to remember about free speech.  The person yelling "Hey **** stick, stand up!"  is also exercising free speech.  And the 1st only prevents the government from suppressing your speech.  A business has the right to set their own rules.  Which is why I support the NFL doing this.  And everyone has a right to let the NFL know how they feel, either with voice or wallet.  I wonder how many people screaming about the NFL players would support a cashier at McDonalds saying "go back to your country, wetback" to every Hispanic looking customer as a protest to current immigration policy.  Free speech is easy to support when you agree with the position.  The measure of a person is can you support free speech when you don't agree with the message.  Free speech is a double edged sword.

and a great way to disagree with free speech is by being violent to the person who you disagree with.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

@Bang

 

“Conditioning is happening. Denying it means you've already been affected.“

 

There are lines in the sand for everything. The president proclaiming people should stand doesn’t quite rise to that line, for me.   He’s said much worse.  The good thing is there are enough people questioning him and saying how rediculous he is. The fact that 50 percent of people agree with him isn’t a symptom of authoritarian rule. It’s a symptom of democracy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by CousinsCowgirl84

[luckydevil]

The NFL played itself, Trump just took this to another level this morning.

[Bang]

5 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

@Bang

 

“Conditioning is happening. Denying it means you've already been affected.“

 

There are lines in the sand for everything. The president proclaiming people should stand doesn’t quite rise to that line, for me.  There were enough people questioning him and saying how rediculous it was. The fact that 50 percent of people agree with him isn’t a symptom of authoritarian rule. It’s a symptom of democracy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, but the President continuing to say things to discredit the free press, to hint at remove any media that questions him, when he continually day after day rages against the press who are seeing through his lies, and when he encourages his followers to berate them at every single rally... when he wants to control the DOJ to lock up his political opponents, as he drops hints about a third term and president for life.. as he admires the strongmen around the world like Duarte in the Phillippines and then echos that he thinks it's a good idea to execute drug dealers (Which they do in the phillipines with death squads and vigilantes.. proof of a crime is not required)..  as he continues to say all of these things,, and then you couple it into the sincere shift toward militarism and symbol worship that has been cultivated for about 20 years...

THAT is conditioning.

THAT is propaganda.

And that is not Democracy at work. That is how democracies have been exploited.

Remember, Hitler was "elected".

 

~Bang

Edited May 24, 2018 by Bang