US Soccer thread.

[Fergasun]

So I am a casual fan and watched the game with good family friends who are Mexican.

Is the cupboard really empty of decent young, US soccer talent? Beasley is old as dirt, they played tonight the over the top game and it was bad... Mexico had all the. chances, and each of their goals were set up by some nifty passes.

[ixcuincle]

USA isn't looking elsewhere and from the Planet Futbol podcast Bradley was quoted as saying "If we lose Saturday we prepare for the World Cup qualifying in November and if we win Saturday we prepare for World Cup qualifying in November". I don't think we wanted to participate in the Confederations Cup. The best teams don't succeed in that and many of the best teams in the world don't even qualify (Spain / Germany) yet win the World Cup. Oddity. 

 

That's not to say this loss hurt though because man we were all packed in the basement of the American Outlaws chapter bar in DC last night and everyone there was hooting and hollering and screaming when Wood tied it and then Bam everyone is deflated after MExico scored it was terrible

 

In the end it would have been nice to participate in that cup, as it is more practice, but I wouldn't be too pissed off that this team didn't make it. The Olympic games ,from the podcast, are more important and we have to focus on qualifying for that. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by ixcuincle

[daveakl]

Not a good night for the good guys.

[Long n Left]

Ugh, just ugh. Not only was the result bad, but the style of play is just ponderouly inconsequential. Klinsman may be riding a dead horse now.

I realize that most of the 2nd half was manned by backups, but all that did was highlight the glaring lack of talent on this US squad. Also, the U-23's had their hands full with Canada. Something needs to change in US soccer, and not just the national team, but throughout the entire organization. What they are doing is not working.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Long n Left

[Kilmer17]

We have a World Cup qualifier in a month. Can anyone say with absolute certainty who our starters are at more than 3 spots? Or even what formation we will be using?

JK expanded the player pool. And set some high bars with great wins. But it's pretty clear now that someone else is needed as manager going forward

[Elessar78]

It's a multi-faceted problem.

 

JK has his qualities, but probably lacks it as a tactician. But correct tactics are only a part of it. But he does have the highest winning percentage of any US coach. 

 

The senior players really aren't that good. Our best field player was a sub (at best) at Spurs and only one of the best players at midtable Fulham. 

 

There may not be any worthwhile players in the pipeline. Don't be misled by the U-XX team results. At that level, "playing right" is more important than the results. The stuff happening at this level, you can't really be certain of the final product for another 5-10 years. 

 

There probably isn't a top level manager working at a national team right now. Besides, it's a different animal than managing a club. There's nothing to be done with the current pool, that's their technical ability, soccer IQ (more or less). The great thing that Jurgen is doing is revamping the youth ranks: how they are trained, how they play, the skills emphasized. But that even has it's own roadblocks as he can't really mandate any youth coach to teach a certain way. He's really limited to sharing his vision and hope that enough grassroots people buy in. 

 

See flow chart below, there's AT LEAST 3 different youth entities and US Soccer has quasi-control of how things operate in each league. And it's not necessarily wrong, because what's best in VA may not be the best in California. In contrast, Belgium is the hot bed dujour for youth development and they can mandate (and have) that all professional youth teams play 4-3-3. They all are brought up to play possession style. They all have professionally licensed coaches. They're players are coached not to tackle the ball, you win it back by intercepting it—the offshoot is that players learn to read the game better from a young age. You don't even get that kind of stuff at high school age here and we wonder why we have no legit pros for the senior team—they die on the vine. 

 

[Kilmer17]

I'd be fine making JK the head of US Soccer.  And let him set the parameters.

 

We have a serious MLS problem that NOBODY will talk about.  It does our National Team a disservice to have our top players play at home in MLS for more money than they can make oversees playing against better competition.  I don't know how to solve that problem.  MLS' success is hurting us.  Michael Bradley was a much better player when he was playing for Roma than he is now dominating at Toronto.

 

We're seeing the same thing happen with Diskerud, Demspey, Jones, etc.  They don't have to play as hard or train as hard to be successful and make more money in MLS.  And it shows on the National Team.

 

Here's my biggest frustration with JK over the last year.  Have we played consecutive games with the same back 5 (GK, LB, RB, CB, CB)?  No.  Why not?  At some point, someone earns the spot.  And stays there.  It's ludicrous to trot out different groups every game and expect any consistency.  And it shows.   Other than games against Cuba, Haiti and Guatemala, we don't have a single shutout in a year. 

 

So while we can all complain about Altidore and Dempsey, or how we have no midfield presence, our issues start at the back.  Fix that (and I think we have the players to do so) and then move up.

 

Evans looked good against Costa Rica.  Lichaj is playing every match for Nottigham Forest in the Championship (which is better than MLS talent wise and training).  But both of those guys are shunned completely by JK (until the other night for Evans).  Spector is playing regularly with Birmingham City, but he saw his first action in years.

 

Give me Besler and Cameron at CB until Brooks regains his form and pick the 4 best outside defenders and be done with it for the first round of WCQ.  That lets F Johnson and Yedlin play wide in the midfield.  Move Bradley back to his natural 6 position as a holding Mid and put Diskerud/Bedoya etc as the playmaker.

 

I'm convinced we have the talent.  But we waste it and coddle it and the talent gets lazy.

[Elessar78]

I'd be fine making JK the head of US Soccer.  And let him set the parameters. Yes

 

 

I'm convinced we have the talent.  But we waste it and coddle it and the talent gets lazy. We do?

To the latter, if we did, we'd have players with the big clubs in Europe who are key contributors to those teams. 

[PeterMP]

Realistically, the same organizational issues is true for girl's and boy's soccer.  US soccer (tries to) dictate what happens at the lower levels, but it has to trickle down and go through the state (and even sub-state) organizations.

 

But that doesn't prevent us from having the best women's team in the world.

 

The issue is that (mens/boys) soccer in the US is taking a back seat to football, basketball, and baseball, and it is going to continue to as long as those are the big money sports in the US (i.e. what US spectators are willing to pay to watch and so what is what is on our tv, and the people that make big money.  

 

My daughter is 10.  The parents with the boys that are the best athletes are already squeezing them out of soccer and into one of the big 3 (and where I live you even throw in ice hockey).  The parents of the girls aren't.

US soccer is making changes.  One thing they are going to do is change the cut off for ages of teams, which is going to rip apart teams that have been playing together for years.

 

http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/changes_coming_to_youth_soccer_in_2016/

 

And state and local soccer agencies are looking at this and asking does this actually make sense to do with respect to the actual kids (most of whom aren't going to play big time soccer) in our programs.

Edited October 14, 2015 by PeterMP

[Elessar78]

yes, because Mario Gotze 5'9" and Andres Iniesta 5'7" (guys who scored the last two World Cup winning goals) would be badly missed by the NBA and NFL. 

 

We're good on the women's side because few other countries invest or has the athletic culture for their women as we do. Even with our "superiority" we had had a drought in Women's World Cups until this past year. Last one we were beaten by a diminutive Japanese side. 

[PeterMP]

yes, because Mario Gotze 5'9" and Andres Iniesta 5'7" (guys who scored the last two World Cup winning goals) would be badly missed by the NBA and NFL. 

 

We're good on the women's side because few other countries invest or has the athletic culture for their women as we do. Even with our "superiority" we had had a drought in Women's World Cups until this past year. Last one we were beaten by a diminutive Japanese side. 

 

We had a "drought" in World Cups, but there is no doubt that year in and year out, we are one of the best teams in the world even in the years that we didn't win the world cup.

 

It isn't just the NFL and the NBA.  It is college football and basketball too and the scholarships offered by those programs.

 

There are 351 D1 men's basketball programs in the US.  There are 206 D1 men's soccer programs in the US.

 

http://web1.ncaa.org/onlineDir/exec2/sponsorship?sortOrder=0&division=1&sport=MSO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_programs

 

I have no idea how many people are playing minor league baseball in this country.

 

Why do you think there are so many more D1 basketball programs than soccer?  Money.

 

And I'll be if you look scholarship dollars, the gap is even larger.

 

And what fuels that gap?  tv dollars

 

Oh and Darren Sproles is 5 ft 6.  Wes Welker is 5 ft 9.  Yeah, if your kid is looking like they might be in that size range their odds are low, but parents aren't necessarily very logical about their kids' futures.

Edited October 14, 2015 by PeterMP

[Elessar78]

You've named two 5 foot nothings in the NFL. 

 

Ever seen some D1 soccer players? A lot of them ain't exactly little and slow. We have hundreds of soccer players in college alone that can run as fast as Cristiano Ronaldo. But that's not what makes Ronaldo Ronaldo. 

 

C'mon. There's only a handful of schools that generate any surplus revenue from their basketball programs. Could it be partly that rostering 12 is smaller than rostering 25?

[daveakl]

Isn't there a strong argument that college soccer programs hurt the player development a lot?

[Elessar78]

Yes. Massively. They have limited training time while their Latin American and European counter parts train year round. Because of college football rules.

[PeterMP]

You've named two 5 foot nothings in the NFL. 

 

Ever seen some D1 soccer players? A lot of them ain't exactly little and slow. We have hundreds of soccer players in college alone that can run as fast as Cristiano Ronaldo. But that's not what makes Ronaldo Ronaldo. 

 

C'mon. There's only a handful of schools that generate any surplus revenue from their basketball programs. Could it be partly that rostering 12 is smaller than rostering 25?

 

Do you want me to name more?

 

In 2010, 143 D1 colleges reported net profits from men's basketball.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/18/news/companies/basketball_profits/

 

For the schools in the football bowl division, the median net profits from men's basketball teams was 340K.

 

And that doesn't even get into the idea that college basketball is more popular (and so on tv more) than soccer and what that means in terms of endowment and enrollment.

 

Schools put more money into football and basketball because it gets more press, which has a positive affect on applications and endowments.

 

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/devin.pope/research/pdf/Website_SEJ%20Sports.pdf

 

(This connects to what I told Zguy in the other thread with respect to funding sports and college revenues.)

 

Heck, the men's NIT gets more press than the NCAA D1 men's soccer championship in this country or any "youth" soccer championship.

 

Lebron had a high school basketball game on tv.  That affects how people think and what they do and tv companies are doing what they are doing based on money.

Edited October 14, 2015 by PeterMP

[daveakl]

What about private academies that would play other private academies. The cost to attend is x plus 1% of all professional earnings.

[Kilmer17]

To the latter, if we did, we'd have players with the big clubs in Europe who are key contributors to those teams. 

No we wouldn't.  MLS is paying them stupid money to stay home and not work hard.

[Elessar78]

No we wouldn't.  MLS is paying them stupid money to stay home and not work hard.

 

If they were any good, the European clubs would be giving them more stupid money to play there. 

[Kilmer17]

If they were any good, the European clubs would be giving them more stupid money to play there. 

Well that's the catch 22.  To get that good, they'd have to first play in Europe for less. 

[FanboyOf91]

http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2015/11/06/17/29/151106-mnt-klinsmann-calls-23-players-for-begining-of-2018-world-cup-qualifying-cycle

 

Go away, Jozy.

[ixcuincle]

Isn't he supposed to be our best forward?

Qualifying begins next week for the world Cup.

[pointyfootball]

"The United States Soccer Federation has outlined plans to stop children aged 10 and under heading footballs."

 

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/34780549

 

I coach U14 girls club team and we are "behind" in heading development.  Most of our training has been using volleyballs, and only for nodding balls to the ground, not clearing a punted or corner-kick ball.  I've kind of seen this coming for awhile.  At some point (this year for us), they have to begin heading the ball, especially defenders.

 

I don't know how you really stop heading balls, so not sure how they're going to implement this.  Hopefully better than the age-year mess they've created.

[DC9]

Check out Michael Bradley playing the 8... affecting the game from deep and ****.

 

I think most of us have asked for that for the last 6 years.

 

Why do these coaches wait until they are about to get fired to listen to me?

[daveakl]

Check out Michael Bradley playing the 8... affecting the game from deep and ****.

I think most of us have asked for that for the last 6 years.

Why do these coaches wait until they are about to get fired to listen to me?

It's usually at that point they start grasping at straws, throwing **** at the wall to see if something sticks, and listening to DC9.

[DC9]

We're good on the women's side because few other countries invest or has the athletic culture for their women as we do. Even with our "superiority" we had had a drought in Women's World Cups until this past year. Last one we were beaten by a diminutive Japanese side. 

 

Disagree to an extent.  Had this conversation with the lady who is taking over my job (I'm moving up, so to speak) this week.  She played in Amsterdam in high school (she's American) and her coach played for Ajax back in the day (don't remember the name) then she played for Rutgers for a bit.

 

Anywho, her take was that most kids play soccer.  Boys move on to football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc... girls move onto basketball and softball, but most still play soccer.  The way the seasons line up in school, it's set up for girls to play all three.

 

Boys have to choose, and frankly we don't have enough choosing world football.  American football is a year round sport now with conditioning programs, etc. 

It's usually at that point they start grasping at straws, throwing **** at the wall to see if something sticks, and listening to DC9.

 

Well, tbh I think he was throwing a lot of **** at the wall tonight, but I liked Jozy as a false 9 and Wood playing on top of that.  Lots of German club teams use that and Liverpool recently started (Jurgen Klopp, go figure) having Christian Benteke on top and instead of playing with a CAM they've played with a false 9 who plays closer and runs behind/off of the  striker.  Coutinho and Jordan Ibe have been used for that by Klopp.

 

Klinsmann seemed to be using Jozy as a center forward, but playing him as a midfielder.  Not sure how that'll work with a more talented team who can hold an offside trap, but we'll see.  It worked tonight.

 

And to be more frank, I think there are high school teams in the US that could shred St Vincent pretty badly, too, so pass the salt.

 

Good showing though.