The price we paid to get RGIII doesn't matter!

[PeterMP]

 

 #NFCEast Hawkins retweeted

TB3 ‏@TBates3  18m18 minutes agoNew Jersey, US

@Redskins good thing 49ers never gave up on Steve young #operation patients#No pressure no diamonds @RGIII #HTTR

 

I know it is a different era, but teams used to develop talent not just exploit it. 

 

 

Uggh.

 

Do people really talk about the NFL and not know history?

 

Steve Young started in TB.

 

He then went to SF where he sat for 4 years behind an Hall of fame QB.

 

In those years, he went 7-3 in the games he did play..

 

The year after that Montana gets hurt and he gets extensive playing time, and he went 5-5.

 

The next year he's the full time start and went 14-2.

 

The 49ers "waited" on Steve Young because initially he wasn't on the team even and when they did get him, they had a Hall of Fame QB that was winning Super Bowls for him to sit behind, but when he did play he had a winning record.

 

It isn't like they ran him out there for years as he accumulated a 12-21 record.

 

Even in his first 2 years in TB, he seems to have been getting better (even though the team was still bad and they were losing a lot (he was 3-17 in TB).

 

His QB rating was up, his sack% was down, his TD/INT rating is up, his fumbles/game are down.

 

Just from year 1 to 2, everything looks like a positive trend (and then he gets traded to SF).

[carex]

My point is this- Leaving his raw talent and friendly demeanor out of the conversation, if Robert Griffin is as hardworking and diligent a leader as his own hype desperately wants us to believe then why are we facing the potential for TWO HCs in a row walking away from one player? I mean that's just... rare.

 

I get exhausted trying to figure this mess out. I get exhausted thinking about this team. Chachie no likey.

 

on the leadership thing, I point to the seven game win streak.  I know it was a while ago, but the thing is it was done with him stepping up after the coach stepped back, by saying they were going into evaluation mode.

 

And Shanny is a known control freak, he's a coach who went for Donavan McNabb, who never completely won over Philly even with all his success, and Rex Grossman who was always in danger of being benched in Chicago or was a backup, and John Beck.  Not the best leaders you know, I'm not sure he wanted a leader at QB.  Isn't that kind of the issue he had in Denver with Jay Cutler?

[Wyndorf25]

" It's the OL. It's the LOS on both sides of the ball. We suck at the trenches. We are the French in WWII, we hand out bouquets and baguettes to opposing teams at the LOS"

 

 

I love a great analogy! 

[XtremeFan55]

Lavar, Clinton, Robert... who will be the next pet diva?

Jameis

[PlayAction]

Most people don't understand the concept of a sunk cost. You'll just keep knocking your head against the wall trying to explain it to them.

There's no question that RG3 isn't the QB that we hoped he would be. Can he still develop into a quality QB? Quite possibly. But he probably needs a significant amount of time to learn what it takes to be successful. The Skins don't have the luxury of developing him that way because his draft position requires a gigantic contract payment that only a fool organization would pay. A team that picks up RG3 as a free agent would give him a contract commensurate to a #2 QB and only incentives if he succeeds.

Could RG3 be successful in an entirely new offense that caters to his strengths? Well he was successful in year 1 under Kyle Shanahan's offense but he was injured three times. After the injury he couldn't execute the same offense in the same manner. RG3 wanted a different offense but wasn't able to demonstrate his capability to run that offense. So fans started hating on Kyle and the Shanahans were fired. New professional coach and fans are hating on Gruden. I think RG3 is the one that needs to fix himself. He no longer has the physical tools to be the phenom that he was in year 1. Teams are not going to design an offense entirely around physical gifts that no longer exist.

[Wyndorf25]

I understand about the sunk cost.  I simply don't trust Gruden being the one to decide if Robert is a sunk cost because I don't think he's a good coach for this team.  This is reminding me more and more of the Josh McDaniels and Jay Cutler scenario in Denver.  Lucky for Denver that they ended up with Manning after the Tim Tebow show.  Eerily similar to our scenarios is that Mike Shanahan was the coach fired that started the Josh McDaniels/Jay Gruden eras in Denver and Washington.

 

Some tough and complicated decisions must be made for this team to steady itself. Assuming a GM is hired and Allen in demoted to Team President only...what would you do if you were the incoming GM?

 

1) Keep Gruden and jettison RG3 for a mid-round draft pick

 

2) Keep RG3 and fire Gruden for utter impenitence in that he found a way to make a miserable situation even worse with the QB and team he was supposedly hired to improve

 

3) Get rid of them both and cleanse the organization of both taints. Hire a coach that you think will succeed under your management structure and work with THAT coach to find a QB who can guide this team moving forward

 

4) Keep Gruden and RG3 and put a maximum concerted effort to upgrade the O-line and supporting blockers (TE and RB) in an effort to keep ANY QB upright and have the ability to learn and flourish in a singular offensive system  

[WilberMarshall]

Is Robert a car with a shot engine and broken transmission or just needs new spark plugs?

 

If it is the former, I will let him be someone else's problem.

[skinsmania123]

forget what we gave up to get him think about how he played and how you felt as a fan when we were winning in 2012. think about the 8 tds THROWN in 5 DAYS. he has it in him. we just need the right coach now. gruden is in way over his head imo

No.  He does NOT have it in him. That was 2012 before he was injured badly during the Seattle playoff game.  Now he is damaged goods emotionally and physically due to that catastrophic injury.  He has always had the body of a sprinter and the mentality of a linebacker.  But not he cannot sprint.  He has a lost a step or two - this is the NFL - it won't do - he can't outrun anyone.  He is done IMO both mentally and physically.  And can we say injury prone.  That last injury was just a joke.  And when he came back holy cow what a mess.

 

But he is a great person IMO and does not deserve the crap he has been given by the fans and the media.  Fortunately there is life after football in the NFL and he is going to do very well, regardless of what he choses to do.  He is very high on himself.  I think he will be released shortly after the season ends.  I just do not see him here.  Might be the best thing for him to get out of here. 

[carex]

No.  He does NOT have it in him. That was 2012 before he was injured badly during the Seattle playoff game.  Now he is damaged goods emotionally and physically due to that catastrophic injury.  He has always had the body of a sprinter and the mentality of a linebacker.  But not he cannot sprint.  He has a lost a step or two - this is the NFL - it won't do - he can't outrun anyone.  He is done IMO both mentally and physically.  And can we say injury prone.  That last injury was just a joke.  And when he came back holy cow what a mess.

 

But he is a great person IMO and does not deserve the crap he has been given by the fans and the media.  Fortunately there is life after football in the NFL and he is going to do very well, regardless of what he choses to do.  He is very high on himself.  I think he will be released shortly after the season ends.  I just do not see him here.  Might be the best thing for him to get out of here. 

 

 

An ACL tear is no longer catastrophic in the NFL

 

The Redskins rarely give up on someone to soon, usually they keep them long after they can be useful.  I do not see him being released this year

[HogHeaven84]

At the same time, look how long teams stuck with Young, Elway, and other phenoms even though they played like bums initially.  Even today, look at how unwilling the Rams and Lions are going, unwilling to let go of their oft injured disappointing franchise QBs. 

 

 

Young played for the Bucs the first two years of his career-the whole team was terrible.  Then he sat behind Montana....he never have a QB rating below 90.0 as a full time starter.  Elway only "struggled" statistically because the threw the ball down the field a lot and challenged defenses....like Andrew Luck.  I don't see anyone complaining about how many picks Luck throws..or suggesting that he's "struggling."  The Rams only held onto Bradford for so long because he was part of the last crop of first round QB's before the new rookie salarly scale. And I assume you're referring to Stafford in Detroit...well all he does is routinely throw for 4000+ yards, and 25+ TD's...oh and he can read a defense.  

 

A) is he too shell shocked by the injuries, poor line play, and the effects of his own bad decision making to regain his mojo and confidence. Is he broken?

 can any quarterback succeed under the conditions that RGIII, Cousins, and McCoy played under this year and last (IE line and scheme)

C) Can the problems be fixed in time to salvage RGIII.

D) Can he become an effective QB

E) Is the greatness we saw in pocket presence, elusiveness, and accuracy from his rookie year gone forever

 

I don't think we know the answers to these.  Some of the data looks bad, but the fact that every QB starts off well and then falls off a cliff in 2014 speaks to factors outside of RGIII.

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure we have a pretty good idea about those questions

 

A) If they fire Gruden, I can't think of any one QB in NFL history to go through 3 different systems that early in his career after playing that poorly and be successful  

 

Good point...do you see it getting much better in a year?  Because I don't, and it would have to for the team to pick up his option.

 

C)/D) No.....goes back to my response to A)...Can you name me any QB in NFL history that wasn't naturally a pocket QB(i.e. a mobile guy) that struggled that significantly into his third year and turn out to be anything but a career back up or short-term starter?

 

E) Ok....let me take this.  RGIII wasn't so much better his rookie season.  In fact he's the very same guy he is now...without the explosiveness.  The difference is the scheme isn't covering for his lack of play recognition and awareness.  Bottom line is...he was making 1-READ throws for most of the year..while only looking at HALF the field at a time.  Throw in the read-option...(which teams didn't know how to defend for 16 games) and well he looked like superman.  The bottom line is....he hasn't gotten any better...and for the first time he's being ask to be an NFL QB.........and he obviously can't do it.  

 

As far as the other QB's on the roster.........really?   Cousins was and is a 4th round Project QB.....nothing more.  Colt McCoy...well...seriously..just about every veteran QB looks good in short stints.  Charlie Batch ring a bell?  

 

People on this board need to suck it up and admit the guy is a BUST..........it sucks...but it is what it is.  At this point I think the team should be asking...did we just commit the biggest draft blunder in NFL history....is RGIII the biggest draft bust ever?  I mean..hey...it's not like the organization is known for swinging for the fences on players....and striking out consistently or anything...........right.....right??  

[carex]

 

People on this board need to suck it up and admit the guy is a BUST..........it sucks...but it is what it is.  At this point I think the team should be asking...did we just commit the biggest draft blunder in NFL history....is RGIII the biggest draft bust ever?  I mean..hey...it's not like the organization is known for swinging for the fences on players....and striking out consistently or anything...........right.....right??  

 

 

you have no idea what a bust is and your analysis is a joke

[JSSkinz]

Robert is only worth unloading if we get enough in return, we shouldn't let go for less than a 3rd rounder.

 

 

Its crazy people have talked themselves into believing Roberts a victim, first Shanny and now Gruden.  Will it take 3 or 4 coaches before people realize there is something more to this story than just X's and O's.

[HogHeaven84]

you have no idea what a bust is and your analysis is a joke

 

I'm just looking at history......and if I were betting on a QB becoming an elite guy, I wouldn't be betting on Robert.  He has much more in common with great college QB's that turned out to be busts, than he does guys like Brady, Brees, and Rodgers.  I thought that was pretty obvious.  

[A Skinhead in Saints Land]

Watching what the rams built on defense with our picks..... I'm calling bull**** on your observation.

[tomwvr]

So let me add my 50 cents here - ---

 

1) Yes it matters - we gave up a lot for RGIII and 4 games with Gruden is not enough - he should have finished out the season with RGIII, if he was still awful by the end the FANS would not say a word about not starting him next year.

2) Colt McCoy is a 3rd string QB nothing more will ever come of him - playing him is a very bad decision - if he doesn't want to play RGIII then it should be Cousins 

3) All of the running QBS are doing not so well this year - Seattle, San Fran ect - they just have better talent on the teams so they are not falling off the surface of the planet like we have.

4) If you look at NFL history there are VERY few QB's that have come into the league and performed at all pro levels in seasons 1-2-3 and some times 4. It takes TIME to become a all pro QB. The Steve Young comparison earlier in the thread was to that point

5) Teams that do not let QB's develop  won't be successful long term in the NFL - if you toss them aside every 2-3 years you will never get any place 

6) Cousins and Griffin need to be on the team next season along with someone else - I am not at all convinced that McCoy is a NFL starting QB - and all of them need to have an open competition for the JOB. 

7) This team cannot afford to draft a QB high in the draft this season - way to many other holes.

[HogHeaven84]

Here's something interesting...since 1967 here's a list of the offensive ROTY winners who were QB's  (Because I know there's got to be someone out there thinking...but but but...he was the "Rookie of the Year...we can't give up on him."

 

Dennis Shaw (1970) Buffalo Bills.................after the '73 season he became a journeyman 

Ben Reothlisberger (2004) Pittsburgh Steelers...........2x Superbowl winner

Vince Young (2006) Tennessee Titans..........never realized his potential, spent 6 years in the NFL before no one wanted him

Matt Ryan (2008) Atlanta Falcons...........Mr. consistency...lowest QB rating since 2nd year is 89.6

Sam Bradford (2010) St. Louis Rams.......hasn't done much..highest TD total 21

Cam Newton (2011) Carolina Panthers........having his worst season as a starting QB 

Robert Griffin III (2012)

 

Who does he most resemble on that list?  it seems like at least half the guys on that list...ended up being nothing special after their rookie year.  

[bradboyd80]

Here's something interesting...since 1967 here's a list of the offensive ROTY winners who were QB's  (Because I know there's got to be someone out there thinking...but but but...he was the "Rookie of the Year...we can't give up on him."

 

Dennis Shaw (1970) Buffalo Bills.................after the '73 season he became a journeyman 

Ben Reothlisberger (2004) Pittsburgh Steelers...........2x Superbowl winner

Vince Young (2006) Tennessee Titans..........never realized his potential, spent 6 years in the NFL before no one wanted him

Matt Ryan (2008) Atlanta Falcons...........Mr. consistency...lowest QB rating since 2nd year is 89.6

Sam Bradford (2010) St. Louis Rams.......hasn't done much..highest TD total 21

Cam Newton (2011) Carolina Panthers........having his worst season as a starting QB 

Robert Griffin III (2012)

 

Who does he most resemble on that list?  it seems like at least half the guys on that list...ended up being nothing special after their rookie year.  

 

You're not doing a very good job of supporting your own stance here.  Four of those listed are still quality QBs.  

 

Bradford "hasn't done much" because of his injuries.  It's hard to do much when you're constantly on IR.  He was looking good, and I read that the Rams were extremely excited for his potential with all their weapons, when he tore his ACL.  

 

Cam Newton literally has no weapons outside of Kelvin Benjamin, who is a rookie.  If 59% completion percentage, 16 TD/11Int, 7 ypa, is his worst season, then he's still better than anybody on our team. 

 

Not even going to address Ryan and Big Ben as they are both solid. 

 

Outside of Shaw (because I don't know much about him), Vince Young is the only one that experienced a short career because of lack of production. 

[HogHeaven84]

You're not doing a very good job of supporting your own stance here.  Four of those listed are still quality QBs.  

 

Bradford "hasn't done much" because of his injuries.  It's hard to do much when you're constantly on IR.  He was looking good, and I read that the Rams were extremely excited for his potential with all their weapons, when he tore his ACL.  

 

 

I think the point I was trying to make is that it's not unheard of for a former rookie of the year to fizzle out after year one.  I tend to disagree a bit on Bradford.  I think he's pretty darn average at this point in his career(when healthy--he had 1 ok-type season-amazing defense and injuries aside), but I'll have to defer to you on what Rams fans think-I personally don't see much to get excited about.  I would think the organization has a major decision to make on him in the future.  

 

Cam Newton literally has no weapons outside of Kelvin Benjamin, who is a rookie.  If 59% completion percentage, 16 TD/11Int, 7 ypa, is his worst season, then he's still better than anybody on our team. 

 

Not even going to address Ryan and Big Ben as they are both solid. 

 

Newton, Ryan, and Roethlisberger are the ones who obviously have succeeded.  I was was just throwing out known information and posing a question.  (i.e. what QB does he most resemble)

 

Shaw was a journeyman like I said...and well everyone knows Vince Young.  Personally out of the list...I think RGIII most resembles Vince Young...and unless I'm mistaken, I think Vince Young at least had the consistency of the same offensive system and head coach to develop under...and RGIII doesn't even have that.

[bradboyd80]

I think the point I was trying to make is that it's not unheard of for a former rookie of the year to fizzle out after year one.  I tend to disagree a bit on Bradford.  I think he's pretty darn average at this point in his career(when healthy--he had 1 ok-type season-amazing defense and injuries aside), but I'll have to defer to you on what Rams fans think-I personally don't see much to get excited about.  I would think the organization has a major decision to make on him in the future.  

 

 

Newton, Ryan, and Roethlisberger are the ones who obviously have succeeded.  I was was just throwing out known information and posing a question.  (i.e. what QB does he most resemble)

 

Shaw was a journeyman like I said...and well everyone knows Vince Young.  Personally out of the list...I think RGIII most resembles Vince Young...and unless I'm mistaken, I think Vince Young at least had the consistency of the same offensive system and head coach to develop under...and RGIII doesn't even have that.

I definitely agree that the Rams have a huge upcoming decision to  make on Bradford.  And also believe that your last statement is exactly why we shouldn't close the book on RG3 just yet.  He hasn't played well, but he's also only had four games in Gruden's system.  Sadly though, it doesn't appear as though they can coexist, so one of them is likely gone at seasons end; and no matter which one it is, it will suck for the franchise. 

[skins/psu1981]

I definitely agree that the Rams have a huge upcoming decision to  make on Bradford.  And also believe that your last statement is exactly why we shouldn't close the book on RG3 just yet.  He hasn't played well, but he's also only had four games in Gruden's system.  Sadly though, it doesn't appear as though they can coexist, so one of them is likely gone at seasons end; and no matter which one it is, it will suck for the franchise. 

But yes, apparently Heisman winner and ROY don't mean jack when it comes to playing in your 2nd year in the NFL. We want to assume RG3 is still/was great, but I seriously have my doubts at this point.

[bradboyd80]

But yes, apparently Heisman winner and ROY don't mean jack when it comes to playing in your 2nd year in the NFL. We want to assume RG3 is still/was great, but I seriously have my doubts at this point.

It's obviously just my opinion, but I think he still has the talent to succeed.  I don't think he'll reach MVP-level status, but I also don't believe he'll be on the streets in a year either (like a lot of people seem to think). 

[Tomel]

Come on guys, you're just dragging me into this discussion kicking and screaming. As the OP, I just wanted to make the point that we needed to forget the sunk costs and just look at where we are today with RGIII and make the best decsion for the future. I'm surprised at how my initial post has gone in so many diverse directions . . . but the discussions HAVE been interesting and I can't help but throw a few other thoughts into the mix.

 

First, a number of you have said RGIII hasn't really had an opportunity to show what he can do because of his injuries (among other things). In my view, injuries are part of the mix. If RGIII keeps getting injured and, therefore, can't get on the field, that needs to be in the minus column when looking at whether he's our QB of the future. I remember RGIII throwing himself through the air and caution to the wind in order to gain a couple of extra yards IN A PRESEASON GAME! Are you kidding me!!! You do that in a playoff game or the super bowl, NOT in a preason game. Can RGIII control his emotions and act rationally in the heat of battle???

 

Regarding Gruden. I like Gruden. I like his frank and straight forward approach. Having said that, I'm having serious reservations about him as our coach. The QB is not the only issue with this team. It seems like we've regressed in every single phase of the game (except, perhaps, punting). If you agree we're seeing a team-wide failure this year, who but Gruden can be held accountable?

 

Lastly, if we keep RGIII through his rookie contract, but don't option him for the 5th year (I think we have to do that by this March at a cost of $16 million for that 5th year), won't he be a free agent after next year. Let's say that's true and he hits the ball out of the park next year. He shows his superstar potential. He gets comfortable in the pocket, etc, etc. The question is will he stick around after what he's experienced thus far in Washington? If he does stick around, what will we have to pay to retain his services?

 

Just a few more thoughts for consideration.

[bradboyd80]

Come on guys, you're just dragging me into this discussion kicking and screaming. As the OP, I just wanted to make the point that we needed to forget the sunk costs and just look at where we are today with RGIII and make the best decsion for the future. I'm surprised at how my initial post has gone in so many diverse directions . . . but the discussions HAVE been interesting and I can't help but throw a few other thoughts into the mix.

 

First, a number of you have said RGIII hasn't really had an opportunity to show what he can do because of his injuries (among other things). In my view, injuries are part of the mix. If RGIII keeps getting injured and, therefore, can't get on the field, that needs to be in the minus column when looking at whether he's our QB of the future. I remember RGIII throwing himself through the air and caustion to the wind in order to gain a couple of extra yards IN A PRESEASON GAME!

I whole-heartedly agree in the "sunk costs" statement.  And to be honest, you shouldn't be surprised that this thread took so many turns.  Anything that has to do with RG3 brings out the worst in ES for some reason.  

[Aireskoi]

Anyone who wants RG3 gone immediately should consider how hard it is to get an NFL QB onto our roster, and what we and other teams have paid for a shot at one.

 

We potentially have one for very little money, so lets see how it plays out.  

 

The "sunk costs" are no longer a factor, so lets just say we get to try this one more year for his base salary of 3.3M (all other costs are SUNK including his bonus).

 

Worst case we part ways next year and get nothing or close to it.

 

Best case is he forces a new contract with his play and we have to overpay him like everyone hoped.

 

*Edit - A team could put together a solid trade offer based on the low 1 year salary also, so that should be considered.  We usually can't trade anyone because our contracts were historically bad, but this was rookie slotting.  I would want more than a ham sandwich.

[Chachie]

on the leadership thing, I point to the seven game win streak.  I know it was a while ago, but the thing is it was done with him stepping up after the coach stepped back, by saying they were going into evaluation mode.

 

And Shanny is a known control freak, he's a coach who went for Donavan McNabb, who never completely won over Philly even with all his success, and Rex Grossman who was always in danger of being benched in Chicago or was a backup, and John Beck.  Not the best leaders you know, I'm not sure he wanted a leader at QB.  Isn't that kind of the issue he had in Denver with Jay Cutler?

 

 

 

McNabb was a mistake but I think Shanny erred on the side of veteran leadership there. No question it failed miserably but the intention was valid. After that and before RG3, it was QB stink cloud in a situation where he had to go with what we had on the roster, with players intended for a backup role having to step up.

 

Jay Cutler. In that case, just the name speaks for itself. He's got a nice arm but he's not shown to have it all going on upstairs and I suspect as a rookie he was a nightmare.

 

However, my ultimate point wasn't to say Mike Shanahan was faultless in DC. Just that he was certainly a proven product who knows offense and succeeded in multiple cities. His crash here was undoubtedly due to the infrastructure, the owner, and possibly the quarterback as much as it was any stubborn qualities he might possess.

 

As soon as Griffin's starting status for week one of 2013 was in question (and in retrospect, he should NOT have started) Robert became a different teammate mentally. He was terrified at the prospect of losing his job to Cousins. This was painfully obvious in the way he spoke to the media and I'm sure he sat in Snyder's office soliciting assurances that he would start no matter how ready he was in the coaches' eyes.

 

He undercut Shanahan. He and Snyder tied Mike's hands behind his back. 4-5 games into that season, it became apparent that Griffin was NOT ready to play and by then I'm sure Mike was bitter. He had NOT in fact received the keys to the car from Snyder as promised. After that long a tenure in the NFL, I don't really blame him for checking out and it was essentially due to Griffin.

 

Now we've got Gruden. An ex-QB and a QB coach, who is sending out smoke signals that he can't deal with RG3.

 

I'm not claiming to be "right" and neither should anyone who's not in the loop day-to-day. I'm trying to point out that 2 seasoned coaching professionals (one of which has won Super Bowls as a coach and as a coordinator) have basically quit on this kid. That doesn't bode well for any coach that has to come in and be forced to handle him in the future, especially if he has the flawed owner's guarantee.