mammajamma Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 i just feel he deserves a competent o-line before we can say hes completely lost it. shanny's blocking scheme helped the offensive line the most (even more-so than robert running), and covered a LOT of their weaknesses. without that, they are useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunny Kelly Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 RG3 maybe can be saved as player as there is serious potential there but he can't work in DC, he has alienated the locker room too much to be able to progress here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 RG3 maybe can be saved as player as there is serious potential there but he can't work in DC, he has alienated the locker room too much to be able to progress here What potential do you see? I honestly do not see much without years of study. He has never worked in a pro-style offense, he legs cannot do what they could do 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Of course you're right about sunk costs, I agree that "look how much we've invested" is not a good reason to keep him. However I think there are good reasons to keep him. 1. He does have upside. He won Heisman and RotY, his recent struggles could be a slump he pulls himself out of. When deciding whether to keep a stock you need to consider its potential value in the future (not the initial investment, as correctly noted in the OP). If the stock has reasonable potential to increase in value, then you don't want to sell low. It seems to me that there is an argument to be made that Robert can deliver value in the future. He certainly has the physical tools. 2. Robert is still under his rookie contract. Suppose you're a TV network CEO, and you've already purchased the broadcast rights to some sporting events for the year. Suppose further that the revenue hasn't been as high as you hoped on those broadcasts, and you are not planning to renew the contract. Wouldn't you still air the events you already paid to broadcast this year regardless of your plans to give up the contract next year? Or to give another example, suppose you run a coffee shop and are deciding to switch the cups you use, wouldn't you still use the cups already in your inventory before making the switch? Likewise, shouldn't we keep Robert around for his last contract year? They'd be getting so little in return that the sunk cost argument doesn't really come into play, especially since he has a small cap number. I do know if McCoy plays against NY and it looks like last week RG3 is going nowhere in the offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Hes a running QB who doesn't run. He'll be here next year anyway, none of the QBs in the draft are worth it. But to the OP, I agree, the price we paid makes no difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 forget what we gave up to get him think about how he played and how you felt as a fan when we were winning in 2012. think about the 8 tds THROWN in 5 DAYS. he has it in him. we just need the right coach now. gruden is in way over his head imo We were winning because Shannahan used Griffin in a way that made sense. Now, Griffin doesn't want to be used that way and he can't become a pocket passer. So, based on your post, we need to convince Griffin to go back to the style of offense that he was in with Shannahan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins island connection Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 forget what we gave up to get him think about how he played and how you felt as a fan when we were winning in 2012. think about the 8 tds THROWN in 5 DAYS. he has it in him. we just need the right coach now. gruden is in way over his head imo Let's not get in over our head here; I sincerely hope that you do not believe that it was Griffin and Griffin alone who did everything, back in 2012. The entire team, even the defense, seemed to play better, not to forget Morris, who was a big a surprise as anyone else. I like Griffin and hope he gets it turned around, but this is a crucial time; 16 million + decision is awaiting the FO, and right now he doesn't look to have earned it. If he believes he's worth more, then let him go; but since the Haynesworth collapse, this team had better have learned their lesson. The only thing that will save Griffin, and a few others, is a QB coach brought in to work with him and the others on their issues which are holding them back. Let that/those people make the unbiased decision on whether any of the QBs have improved and seem qualified to be a starter. Its like misfit island on the team; most everyone has a flaw, and right now, Griffin isn't worth that 16 mil, nowhere close, but if he can be re-trained, he might be worth alot more, but the proof is in the pudding, or play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aireskoi Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I've heard "if you're sick of starting over, then stop quitting". Lets build a team and stop worrying about who will play QB for another year. We may have a guy and we may not. There is a lot of work to do before we can safely throw another Rookie QB on this team, or consistently expect wins from anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 We were winning because Shannahan used Griffin in a way that made sense. Now, Griffin doesn't want to be used that way and he can't become a pocket passer. So, based on your post, we need to convince Griffin to go back to the style of offense that he was in with Shannahan. I disagree he can't become a pocket passer, not a pure one like a Manning, but more like a Steve Young, or Cam Newton even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhodeIsland Ave Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Democrats vs Republicans Hatfield vs Mccoys North vs South This vs That No matter how much evidence, dialogue, stats one presents, You will be unable to sway the opposition. It's a waste of time. But by all means, try, try again. Folks will fight for what they believe until the death and that includes sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Strong possibility we would have missed on the picks anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heyholetsgogrant Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I think the poster makes good points, what we paid 3 years ago is irrelevant now. Second, I haven't heard one person who defends RG3 say how long we should wait till he develops. He already been in the league for 3 years. Yes, I know hes been hurt for a lot it, but he's starting from square one again because he can't throw from the pocket, which has to be done in order to be success in today's NFL. Are there any evidence/examples of teams waiting on QB's to develop after 3 years in the league???? How long do we wait till he develops before we make a decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRagone Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I think the poster makes good points, what we paid 3 years ago is irrelevant now. Second, I haven't heard one person who defends RG3 say how long we should wait till he develops. He already been in the league for 3 years. Yes, I know hes been hurt for a lot it, but he's starting from square one again because he can't throw from the pocket, which in order to be success in today's NFL hes needs to do. Are there any evidence/examples of teams waiting on QB's to develop after 3 years in the league???? Really? You haven't heard, or you just haven't listened? Because I've seen a date put out there by a number of people who defend Griffin and suggest we should continue to try and see what we have out of him. The end of his rookie contract. Right now we have him under contract through next year. We have him under contract for what is a relatively inexpensive deal, all things considering. The majority of individuals I've seen who defend the notion of sticking with Griffin in an intelligent manner seem to continually point to that as the cut off point. If by the end of his contract he's still shown nothing close to what you saw in 2012 and seems to not be developing as needed, then you cut bait then by simply not resigning him. But you at least keep him through his rookie contract. Essentially, that his value in potential is worth more than a litle cap space (simply cutting him) or a little cap space and a late round draft pick). I imagine things would be different if there was a legitimate reason to believe anyone would trade a higher round pick for him...but why would that happen? Despite the Redskins desperately attempting to say he's still in the plan, it's almost universally viewed as either a ploy to make him trade viable (if Gruden stays) or truth because we're firing Gruden (in which case he's not trade viable anyways). You've had a coach spend a good chunk of the past month or two running down everything about him on the field, not to mention a media that has been anxious to run him down of the field....combining with his poor play this year to make for very, very little real trade value. Especially when it's become pretty clear that the team is very likely to cut Griffin if Gruden stays on (so why bother parting ways with a high draft pick to get him) or try to actually work with Griffin if they get rid of Gruden (In which case, why waste time trying to trade). To the OP's point, the traded picks are a sunk cost. But there's still a notion of ROI. Is keeping Griffin worth more to the team than getting rid of him? And there's a lot that goes into that equation, but it's a legitimate question. But to say you haven't seen anyone suggest a time frame on how long to wait just strikes me as hyperbole. I've yet to see someone suggesting we actually should resign Griffin to any significant contract or as our potential "future guy" at the end of next year if he plays poorly again. If a time frame is given, and at times it is, it's almost universally through his rookie contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heyholetsgogrant Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Really? You haven't heard, or you just haven't listened? Because I've seen a date put out there by a number of people who defend Griffin and suggest we should continue to try and see what we have out of him. The end of his rookie contract. Well, I don't post here that often and didn't see it. Second, can anyone give an example of a QB figuring things out or show at least an upswing by the 4th year? I can't think of any, usually you can see it right away. Based on what he saw this season and the beginning of last, there's no way RG3 (essentially starting from scratch learning to throw from the pocket) is going to learn that in a year. It's probably not worth the time or the headache, both in terms of teaching fundamentals and locker room disruptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRagone Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Well, I don't post here that often and didn't see it. Second, can anyone give an example of a QB figuring things out or show at least an upswing by the 4th year? I can't think of any, usually you can see it right away. Based on what he saw this season and the beginning of last, there's no way RG3 (essentially starting from scratch learning to throw from the pocket) is going to learn that in a year. It's probably not worth the time or the headache, both in terms of teaching fundamentals and locker room disruptions. First...well alright. Well, happy to inform you otherwise then. There's definitely a time table that many people do put forward. Second, one of the ones I've seen posted often is Drew Brees, who really begun to come into his own in his 4th year in the league. Though it was his third year of significant playing time. Third, even if you think it's not a good argument (which is a reasonable thought), that doesn't change the fact that there is a timetable put out there by many people. Disagreeing with the logic of that time table, and suggesting hte time table doesn't exist, are two different htings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 forget what we gave up to get him think about how he played and how you felt as a fan when we were winning in 2012. think about the 8 tds THROWN in 5 DAYS. he has it in him. we just need the right coach now. gruden is in way over his head imo He had the right coach, Kyle Shanahan, and Robert threw him under the bus. (Jason Reid reported that mid way thru last season Robert just stopped listening to Kyle at all) There is no other coach who wants a zone read QB in the NFL. Every Zone Read QB has failed or is imploding except for Wilson. And take away the NFL's best Defense, best RB and great Special teams and he'd be right there with the rest of them. Get a real GM. Blow this team up and start from scratch. That's the only favorable action. We all want progress, but if you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive. ~CS Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Paint Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I understand about the sunk cost. I simply don't trust Gruden being the one to decide if Robert is a sunk cost because I don't think he's a good coach for this team. This is reminding me more and more of the Josh McDaniels and Jay Cutler scenario in Denver. Lucky for Denver that they ended up with Manning after the Tim Tebow show. Eerily similar to our scenarios is that Mike Shanahan was the coach fired that started the Josh McDaniels/Jay Gruden eras in Denver and Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I disagree he can't become a pocket passer, not a pure one like a Manning, but more like a Steve Young, or Cam Newton even. #NFCEast Hawkins retweeted TB3 @TBates3 18m18 minutes agoNew Jersey, US @Redskins good thing 49ers never gave up on Steve young #operation patients#No pressure no diamonds @RGIII #HTTR I think the poster makes good points, what we paid 3 years ago is irrelevant now. Second, I haven't heard one person who defends RG3 say how long we should wait till he develops. He already been in the league for 3 years. Yes, I know hes been hurt for a lot it, but he's starting from square one again because he can't throw from the pocket, which has to be done in order to be success in today's NFL. Are there any evidence/examples of teams waiting on QB's to develop after 3 years in the league???? How long do we wait till he develops before we make a decision? I know it is a different era, but teams used to develop talent not just exploit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cloud Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I couldn't disagree more. If you have a player who has shown his incompetence in running the team, why keep him? People say "he showed what he can be in 2012". Considering since then he has been horrible, it seems more likely it was a fluke. Just to respond to this point, he showed exactly who he was, no fluke, UNTIL he bust his knee...and then the same thing until he bust his ankle. Whether that means he is now officially broken beyond repair, or fixed, but a glass cannon waiting to be broken again I don't know. When he first got injured, the old soul that I am, I just saw Theismann when he broke his leg, and felt that same sickening feeling...my only hope is that he is younger, and wasn't totally broken. Like many others, I think he has a chance to get back to being great. While his legs were a great asset, he was also poised with a good throwing arm. I hope his poise and arm can make up for his legs being less of a threat, and that in years to come his good running instincts will still serve us well when everything is covered down field and there's room to run... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunny Kelly Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 What potential do you see? I honestly do not see much without years of study. He has never worked in a pro-style offense, he legs cannot do what they could do 3 years ago. In year one his passes were right on the money, he was decisive & well able to hit players in stride. He is is like a rabbit dazed in headlights at the minute but the last few weeks have helped show that he may not be the problem alone regarding holding onto the ball too long given how the other QB's have struggled with the protection given to our QBs. He is not going to be Brady or Manning but why cant he be like Romo, someone who has flaws but can scramble enough to make plays? (I know he it is isn't the most attractive comparison but when was the last time we had someone as good as Romo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Aaron Rodgers sat for several years. Alex Smith is doing well on his second team. Numerous teams have taken shots on other teams backups who've sat around for a few years with varying results. Mark Sanchez is playing well at the moment. If Colt McCoy actually does something for us then he's be one. I believe Romo was a backup for a few years before he got the starting job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I understand about the sunk cost. I simply don't trust Gruden being the one to decide if Robert is a sunk cost because I don't think he's a good coach for this team. This is reminding me more and more of the Josh McDaniels and Jay Cutler scenario in Denver. Lucky for Denver that they ended up with Manning after the Tim Tebow show. Eerily similar to our scenarios is that Mike Shanahan was the coach fired that started the Josh McDaniels/Jay Gruden eras in Denver and Washington. I hear you and has Gruden earned the right to dictate our QB's future at this point? I just have an issue because to some he never did anything here. Regardless of how he did it, he took us to the playoffs in one year and there are a number of better pocket passers who are still trying to acheive that. Seeing how little patience Gruden has for developing him just befuddles me because he never should have accepted the job if he knew that was a primary consideration. It's like he never looked at any tape on Griffin, or worse yet said i'll find out when i get ther. This screams Zorn the "Maroon and Black" team colors because your to stupid to do your homework first. I mean we don't even have a QB coach so if Jay decides to devote 30 minutes of his time to it, or course he's going to have no patience for it. Plain and simple its just stupid coaching and shows he doesn't care. Because if he's as raw as you say hire him is own d$&( QB coach and see what they can make happen day in and day out. That's not expensive to do and is far cheaper then giving up on the guy and starting over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmySmith Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 #NFCEast Hawkins retweeted TB3 @TBates3 18m18 minutes agoNew Jersey, US @Redskins good thing 49ers never gave up on Steve young #operation patients#No pressure no diamonds @RGIII #HTTR I know it is a different era, but teams used to develop talent not just exploit it. Steve Young's 20th start came at age 25. His 40th came at age 30. I agree that if RG3 sits and watches the NFL for the next 5 years, he will have a better handle on the game. If he keeps playing, he will be out of it by 30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heyholetsgogrant Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Aaron Rodgers sat for several years. Alex Smith is doing well on his second team. Numerous teams have taken shots on other teams backups who've sat around for a few years with varying results. Mark Sanchez is playing well at the moment. If Colt McCoy actually does something for us then he's be one. I believe romoSUCKS was a backup for a few years before he got the starting job Smith and Sanchez are not franchise QB's (mediocre at best) and both teams don't have a inept defenses/special teams. Rodgers was drafted to sit for 3 years. I guess I can give you Brees, but his 4th year in the league he tore it up. RG3 is nowhere near what both those guys were in their 4th year in the league. Plus both guys were already pocket passers in college and their first day in the NFL. To me it's not about keeping RG3 around for another year, it's his attitude to how he approaches the game and the locker room. "I've talked to his previous coaches, people I really trust and admire, that know quarterbacks. He doesn't put the time in," Young said on the Michael Kay radio show, viaPro Football Talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I'm torn between Really liking Robert and thinking maybe he's a coach killer. No matter what any of us think of the Shannies in retrospect, they were field-proven solid stock when they showed up here. Gruden may or may not have head-coaching chops but I'm not sure that can be judged right now. My point is this- Leaving his raw talent and friendly demeanor out of the conversation, if Robert Griffin is as hardworking and diligent a leader as his own hype desperately wants us to believe then why are we facing the potential for TWO HCs in a row walking away from one player? I mean that's just... rare. I get exhausted trying to figure this mess out. I get exhausted thinking about this team. Chachie no likey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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