How do we solve Linebackers covering WRs w/o changing scheme?

[NoCalMike]

From the first day we implemented the 3-4, it has been a constant battle between who we think is worse, the personnel or the coach himself.

 

I would argue that right now the pass rush is decent enough, not great though, however the secondary is just not good.

To make matters worse, I continually see week after week that we line up linebackers on WRs, and not on the inside slot WRs running the short hitch routes, but Linebackers on WRs that are spread wide.  Today, Cooper was covered on 3 straight plays by Robinson.   The Eagles ran the same damn play three times in a row seeing this.

 

Another time in the game, Perry Riley is covering.....81, and it results in a TD, then almost the same thing later on leads to another TD.

 

I know Linebackers that can cover WRs has always been said to be an imperative part of making the 3-4 scheme effective, but how realistic is this unless the pass rush is DOMINANT, and exactly how many linebackers in the NFL can cover WR's?

[Warhead36]

No LB can cover a WR in the NFL down the field. If it's zone and the LB is covering short stuff that's one thing but asking for your LB to run downfield with a WR is a recipe for disaster.

 

Especially Riley who is just not very good as a cover LB. Great against the run, awful against the pass.

[Rufus T Firefly]

[knowledge316]

Riley Jr along with London Fletcher were two of the worst LBs in coverage last season. So, what does Ginger do? Have Riley cover WR Matthews twice that results in TWO TDs. Riley Jr. should not be on the field on obvious passing downs unless he is blitzing. 

[RandyHolt]

It was a rare sight to see.

 

Where were the DB's when our LBs were in press man?  What was their role? 

 

It seems Haslett was daring Foles to beat us using his WRs. Maybe he was baiting a trap and a DBs were supposed to come over and snag a pick 6. I think he rolled the dice when our offense went flat in the 2nd half.

 

With Hall and Nacho out, maybe it forced his hand to do something radical. Biggers or BMerri out there wide may not have done much better. 

 

Maybe the DBs were on spy/deep duty to take out their RBs / take away the screen.  Haz succeeded in taking out Sproles and Shady. Maybe how he did that ties to his LBs playing corner somehow. 

 

Haslett's unpredictable D somehow gave us a chance to win late with some key stops.  

[NoCalMike]

Another disturbing thing about it is it seemed like the Linebackers were giving the WR's a free release at the line, which is ridiculous to do.  They know they aren't going to be able to run with the WR's so their only real hope is to bump them hard at the line and disrupt the timing.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On the second TD Reiley seemed like he had pretty good position, just didn't make a play

It happens in the 4-3 too. Actually has little to do with how the front 7 is configured. The offense is always trying to get the matchup of a WR I'm a LB, and the D is trying to avoid it. Depending on the formation, blitz package, offensive play, it's going to happen because you have 4 or 5 secondary guys, 3 WRs and a TE most times, and the LBs are responsible either to match up in zones or man-man.

Perry should have made the play on the second TD. Was inches from knocking it down.

[Bottled Nevertamed]

We were dialed in on their RBs today. Riley on a WR might have been a consequence of that.

[Puma Kane]

You solve it by getting a new defensive coordinator, that puts help over the top or a defensive coordinator who matches the scheme over the opponent.

 

Rambo is gone and Haslett should be next.

[757SeanTaylor21]

My thing about the defense is If you are gonna rush 4...rush 5...screw the zone crap...play them TIGHT at the line and jam them...so the rush has a chance to get there and we are close to the receiver...playing 12 yards away and zones all day really allowed Jordan Matthews to destroy us...maclin too. And cooper had key catches.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't understand the question...you want to make a change without making a change?

[NoCalMike]

No, not necessarily. However I am sure you can add packages and formations to the defense that set themselves up better to defend the pass.  It seemed like in the 2nd half that at least 50% of Foles's completions were to whatever WR was being covered by a linebacker.

 

I know it is going to happen a couple times a game due to the numbers game, but it seemed to be happening an awful lot today.

Also, was it me or were the Eagles not moving so fast on offense by the second half of the game?  All I heard going into the game was how fast they run play after play after play, but I think they were physically unable to keep that pace.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

On the second TD Reiley seemed like he had pretty good position, just didn't make a play

It happens in the 4-3 too. Actually has little to do with how the front 7 is configured. The offense is always trying to get the matchup of a WR I'm a LB, and the D is trying to avoid it. Depending on the formation, blitz package, offensive play, it's going to happen because you have 4 or 5 secondary guys, 3 WRs and a TE most times, and the LBs are responsible either to match up in zones or man-man.

Perry should have made the play on the second TD. Was inches from knocking it down.

Yeah I really don't understand how Riley didn't make the play on that TD. He was right there, for some reason he's didn't put his hands up all the way. Should have been an easy deflection at worst

[Voice_of_Reason]

Yeah I really don't understand how Riley didn't make the play on that TD. He was right there, for some reason he's didn't put his hands up all the way. Should have been an easy deflection at worst

Cooley has never been a huge fan of Riley, and his criticism is that he's not very aware of what's going on around him.  He's ok, but not very instinctual.  

 

I think that was the problem on that completion.

 

The first one, he was just flat beat like a drum.

[Voice_of_Reason]

A few things to note about the defense in general:

 

1. They limited McCoy and Sproles to almost nothing all day long.  It was clear that Haslett had decided that McCoy and Sproles were not going to beat them, and they were going to force Foles and the receivers to do that consistently.  They get paid too, and were able to execute.

2. The Eagles are, in general, very difficult to defend because of their scheme and talent.  Which is why they've got a streak of 10 games with 30+ points, I believe.  They score on everybody, all the time. They are legitimately good on offense.

3. The defense made quite a few plays.  They got a turnover in the first half to stop a drive, and in the second half, they forced 3 or 4 punts. 

4. The defense also got the ball back to the offense down 3 with ~3:00 left in the game at the Eagles 41 yard line.  When they absolutely had to get a stop to preserve the game, they did it.  Gave it back to the offense in great field position, and the offense couldn't slam the door shut and win the game.  

 

Was the defense perfect? No.  Were there a few blown coverage? Sure.  A few questionable play-calls? Absolutely. Was it really odd to see WRs matched up on LBs down the middle of the field? Absolutely.  

 

But if you told me that the Eagles would score 30 points on offense, Sproles and McCoy would be essentially non-factors, would turn the ball over, and our team would get the ball at the +41 with 3 min to go, and a chance to win on the road, I'd have take taken that scenario 10 times out of 10.  And I think just about any team in the NFL would take that scenario against the Eagles.  

[CurseReversed]

That second touchdown on Riley was a tough one.   He had good coverage, but you could see how hard it was for him to get any air on his jump or extension on his arms because he was twisting his torso to react to the ball.   This is a real athletic move that some players are better at then others, you can see that he struggled with it.  

 

It reminds me of the play in the 2005 playoffs against Seattle when Clark had tight coverage on a WR, whose name I forget, going deep up the middle, and the ball came in accurate but low and Clark just couldnt twist his torso around and bat it away fast enough. 

 

That play changed that whole game for us, and next year Clark was gone. 

[justice98]

With the proliferation of the spread in college, you'd think LBs coming out would start becoming more adept at coverage.  That or you'd see more failed safeties converting to LB.  You might get a LB coming out with straight line or side to side speed, but they have no sense of coverage.

[Going Commando]

Another disturbing thing about it is it seemed like the Linebackers were giving the WR's a free release at the line, which is ridiculous to do.  They know they aren't going to be able to run with the WR's so their only real hope is to bump them hard at the line and disrupt the timing.

How many linebackers can play press man coverage though? That is asking too much. Man coverage out of a 3-4 LBer is bad enough. The only way they really have a chance to keep up in man is to play with a cushion.

The thing about Chip Kelly's offense is you just have to deal with your base personnel because you're getting so few chances to sub in different packages. That was a part of the mismatch problem yesterday.

Another part is we're getting thin on the back end and just don't have enough quality players capable of playing a variety of roles to rotate our DBs well IMO.

We're just going to have to figure out a way to play effective zone coverages where we won't end up with linebackers in single coverage so much.

[Going Commando]

My thing about the defense is If you are gonna rush 4...rush 5...screw the zone crap...play them TIGHT at the line and jam them...so the rush has a chance to get there and we are close to the receiver...playing 12 yards away and zones all day really allowed Jordan Matthews to destroy us...maclin too. And cooper had key catches.

It's not that easy though. There are a bunch of CBs that can't play press coverage. It's just a skill that a LBer isn't going to realistically have. And if, as you'd expect, he doesn't jam or reroute the receiver then he's got no chance of recovering against pretty much any NFL receiver. Their whole job is getting off the line and accelerating throughout their route. Let's be real, they're going to run away from any linebacker playing them tight at the line. I think doing that would lead to more defensive holds and busted coverages than successful executions.

[Going Commando]

With the proliferation of the spread in college, you'd think LBs coming out would start becoming more adept at coverage.  That or you'd see more failed safeties converting to LB.  You might get a LB coming out with straight line or side to side speed, but they have no sense of coverage.

Most teams don't have many NFL caliber players on a defense. When you think about it, it's probably only like 10 teams a season or so that do. In general, if you're an NFL-bound stud linebacker then I think your team is probably playing you in the box as much as possible and giving you zones in the middle of the field to keep you involved in as many plays as possible to take advantage of your strength and tackling ability. They aren't going to want to drop you into single coverage on a wide out and/or move you outside the box very often.

[justice98]

Most teams don't have many NFL caliber players on a defense. When you think about it, it's probably only like 10 teams a season or so that do. In general, if you're an NFL-bound stud linebacker then I think your team is probably playing you in the box as much as possible and giving you zones in the middle of the field to keep you involved in as many plays as possible to take advantage of your strength and tackling ability. They aren't going to want to drop you into single coverage on a wide out and/or move you outside the box very often.

 

I'm thinking less covering WRs and more covering TEs and backs.  Teams are getting killed on that.  I don't expect a LB to ever cover a WR and any scheme that employs it seems sketchy.  

[Laxpunk2006]

My thing about the defense is If you are gonna rush 4...rush 5...screw the zone crap...play them TIGHT at the line and jam them...so the rush has a chance to get there and we are close to the receiver...playing 12 yards away and zones all day really allowed Jordan Matthews to destroy us...maclin too. And cooper had key catches.

This sounds like a touchdown waiting to happen.

[RawBBQSauce]

I posted it in RTT but this is the single most frustrating thing about this team.

 

It's football 101. Match personnel for personnel. Whatever your argument is against that philosphy, it's wrong.

 

If they bring in 3 WR's, you bring in 3 CB's. If they bring in 4 WR's, you bring in 4 CB's. If they bring in 5 WR's, you bring in 5 CB's.

 

If you put a SS or an LB on the LOS against a slot receiver, you are putting your defense in AN ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE position. That's just JV bull**** if you ask me.

[RandyHolt]

We heard that Chip likes big WR's, or maybe just not DJax

 

I wonder what are the 40 times of their WRs in coverage vs out backers vs the 40s of those same LBs.  

 

Maybe Haslett thought the wideouts he had LBs on, were simply not very fast.

 

It couldn't be much worse than a LB on Shady, could it?

[DC9]

Okay, for everyone out there.... we played 2 ILBs to take away the run and force the Eagles to pass.

 

If you noticed, we weren't beaten by Sproiles and we weren't beaten by McCoy.  That's why we had the two LBs in there.

 

The safeties played a lot of 2 over and the Eagles ran a lot of seam routes.  The safeties can't commit to the seam routes until the ball is thrown when everyone is running a fly.  So it takes a perfect pass to beat that coverage and Foles had two of them.

 

The gameplan wasn't bad (and don't let my avi fool you, I'm not a Haz fan --- I am a defense fan)... I think all of us expected more from our pass rush and frankly that's where we lost the game.  Foles had all day to throw and Meriweather got cooked in coverage on one seam route while Foles threw a perfect ball in between he and Riley to Matthews on another. 

 

Take away that and the special teams performance and we're in first place.

 

Nothing wrong schematically, everything wrong about the execution/players running it (mainly Meriweather and the lack of a pass rush).