twa Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I would look at reasons for their decision. There are many good reasons to choose A, B, or C. There are many bad reasons to choose A, B, or C. This is not the only way to look at respect for life, etc. For example, you could save 1000+ children in other places in the world for the cost of raising one child in America. You say: respect for life is having that one child. Somebody may say: respect for life is to get a visectomy and save those 1000+ children instead of having your own. I agree ,but if ya piss away all their lives where are ya? are they killing one to save a thousand ....or to go to Starbucks or save the polar bears? (cute buggers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Respect for life is not found in converting lives into equations. You don't look at people as resources that can be cut down in one place to benefit another. My point is that if you respect life you don't look at the 1 or the thousand. You do your best to save all of the above. Trying to decide who deserves to live is a dangerous game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 You know, I really want to respect guys like Richard Dawkins who are taking religious fundamentalists to task. I really do; but they tend to be so mean spirited and intentionally confrontational about it that it makes it impossible. Is Dawkins even the great secular champion he was 5-6 years ago after the God Delusion came out? I haven't really heard much come from him lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Respect for life is not found in converting lives into equations. You don't look at people as resources that can be cut down in one place to benefit another. My point is that if you respect life you don't look at the 1 or the thousand. You do your best to save all of the above. Trying to decide who deserves to live is a dangerous game. Some may say, respect for life is not found in spending millions of dollars to protect clumps of cells while actual living people with fully developed brains are suffering horribly from hunger and preventable diseases. You do decide who deserves to live regardless of whether you choose to ignore that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Reducing them to clumps of dead cells at the costs of millions of dollars is not the right path either. Anyone that has lost a wanted 'clump of cells' can tell ya the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Reducing them to clumps of dead cells at the costs of millions of dollars is not the right path either. Anyone that has lost a wanted 'clump of cells' can tell ya the difference. Just don't tell me you got the measuring stick for what it means to "respect life" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I would have an serious issue if a couple that had knew at the outset they had a very high risk of passing on a seriously debilitating genetic disorder and attempted to have a large family via reproduction instead of adoption, but I also don't think it's anyone's place to legislate against their personal decision. I just hope they have the education and resources to take care of a special needs child if it comes to pass. You know, I really want to respect guys like Richard Dawkins who are taking religious fundamentalists to task. I really do; but they tend to be so mean spirited and intentionally confrontational about it that it makes it impossible. Is Dawkins even the great secular champion he was 5-6 years ago after the God Delusion came out? I haven't really heard much come from him lately. I'm as Atheist as it gets, but I think RIchard Dawkins is horrible person. Pretty much anyone else I know that is Athiest/Agnostic feels the same way. He still has an audience, but i think the Athiest community has largely tuned him out. Oh, unless its to troll him on twitter by imposing fake quotes on pictures of him looking smug. There's a ton of that out there and it's a lot of fun. He responds to them almost every time, he can't stop himself from doing it.https://twitter.com/dan_verg_/status/481840185093541888 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Some may say, respect for life is not found in spending millions of dollars to protect clumps of cells while actual living people with fully developed brains are suffering horribly from hunger and preventable diseases. You do decide who deserves to live regardless of whether you choose to ignore that decision. Those "some" would be making terribly weak, and obviously political, arguments that ignore how the entire system works. By that logic anyone in designer shoes cares nothing for life. That money could have gone to the hungry, to those with "fully developed brains" that are suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Those "some" would be making terribly weak, and obviously political, arguments that ignore how the entire system works. By that logic anyone in designer shoes cares nothing for life. That money could have gone to the hungry, to those with "fully developed brains" that are suffering.Do you see anything ethically questionable in enjoying luxury items while others are dying of hunger?Say, what if these people were right next to each other, instead of being in different countries? Would that influence your moral compass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Do you see anything ethically questionable in enjoying luxury items while others are dying of hunger? Say, what if these people were right next to each other, instead of being in different countries? Would that influence your moral compass? Are you claiming that you don't do things that you wouldn't do with money if people were right next to you dying of hunger? I've taken my kids to Disney World. I certainly could have contributed that money to charities that were feeding the starving. Was that trip unethical or immoral? What types of vacations do you take? Do you take no vacations? How far do you want to push this? I just ate a banana. In a few minutes, I'm going to have a slice of raisin bread. If somebody next to me was dying of hunger, I'd give them the rain bread instead of eating it myself. Is it unethical or immoral for me to eat the raisin bread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Are you claiming that you don't do things that you wouldn't do with money if people were right next to you dying of hunger? I've taken my kids to Disney World. I certainly could have contributed that money to charities that were feeding the starving. Was that trip unethical or immoral? What types of vacations do you take? Do you take no vacations? How far do you want to push this? Yes your trip can be viewed as unethical or immoral.Yes I also do plenty of things that can be viewed as unethical or immoral. Our lives are full of very difficult ethical decisions. Multiple contradicting yet valid perspectives are possible. I encourage us to remain humble, open to discussion, and willing to give proper consideration to all perspectives. I am willing to give that consideration to people who are against abortion. Does it go both ways? Why I am hearing "opposing abortion is the only way to respect life"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I think it's immoral to allow people who are poor to have children that they are unable to care for. It's funny, the people who are against abortion are by and large okay with killing in self defense and capital punishment. Seems like they would be at odds. Sometimes ending life is in the best interests of society. When that is the case, it should be welcomed with open arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chew Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I encourage us to remain humble, open to discussion, and willing to give proper consideration to all perspectives.ES Admin should add this to the new member approval e-mails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Yes your trip can be viewed as unethical or immoral. Yes I also do plenty of things that can be viewed as unethical or immoral. Our lives are full of very difficult ethical decisions. Multiple contradicting yet valid perspectives are possible. I encourage us to remain humble, open to discussion, and willing to give proper consideration to all perspectives. I am willing to give that consideration to people who are against abortion. Does it go both ways? Why I am hearing "opposing abortion is the only way to respect life"? The only person that I see that's used the word ONLY In this thread is you, and in fact, twa agreed with your post in which you used the word ONLY saying you were right. And nobody quoted that post disagreeing with it. (He also went on and made the point that the second part of your statement related to the morality (spending the money that would have spent raising the kid that was aborted on saving other kids in the other parts of the world doesn't seem to happen much as far as I know.)) I think everybody agrees that there are multiple ways to respect life. (And I'm not even pro-life in the political context in that I don't support over turning Roe v. Wade.) **EDIT** Do you disagree that deciding who gets to live and die, even as a feteus, isn't a dangerous game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 "Pretty much anyone else I know that is Athiest/Agnostic feels the same way." Wish Atheists would stop lumping Agnostics in with their group. They're not the same and not even close to being the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Sometimes ending life is in the best interests of society. When that is the case, it should be welcomed with open arms. When? Who gets to make that decision and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 When? Who gets to make that decision and why? Society does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Society does. How does society make decisions about ending a life? So we are taking the decision out of the relevant person's hands? You want to die, society has to say it is okay? The same for abortion? Are we going to have votes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bliz Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 What an outrageous comment. Anyone who has ever met someone with ds, whether a kid or an adult, knows they can lead very happy and fulfilling lives. I could understand making the argument if he was talking about some of the incredibly nasty diseases or complications that are out there, the kind of thing that is 100% fatal and the baby is never going to see the outside of a NICU. You can argue the morality of abortion vs bringing a baby into the world so that it can spend a few days or a couple weeks suffering before dying. But ds is not at all on that level. Dawkins is an ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 How does society make decisions about ending a life? So we are taking the decision out of the relevant person's hands? You want to die, society has to say it is okay? The same for abortion? Are we going to have votes? It just does. Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 The only time I ever see anyone stating they are against abortion yet don't want to help starving or impoverished children, are people who are for abortion and have a delicate strawman they're trying to keep from falling apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 The only time I ever see anyone stating they are against abortion yet don't want to help starving or impoverished children, are people who are for abortion and have a delicate strawman they're trying to keep from falling apart. Isn't that the hard right's stance? No abortion but no welfare for struggling families? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl05 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I'm a geneticist, and follow hundreds of kids with Down syndrome in my clinic. They are a true joy to me, and the main reason I went into the field. I do believe there are diseases that are so awful that terminating an affected pregnancy may well be the most loving and kindest thing to do, but Down syndrome is really far from that threshold (for me). This is a great article from todays NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/29/opinion/the-truth-about-down-syndrome.html I've read a lot of Dawkins' books, and at one point he was a good advocate for reason and atheism (a view I share). At this point, though, he's totally lost me. He appears to have lost his mind, and is spending his time just alienating and antagonizing people. What a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 On the subject of abortion, I am both pro-life and pro-choice. My own personal decision is that I would not terminate a pregnancy but I also realize that there is not a clear right and wrong answer here and that I don't have the right to make that choice for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Wish Atheists would stop lumping Agnostics in with their group. They're not the same and not even close to being the same.C'mon now we all know agnostic is somebody who does not believe in god but doesn't want to say it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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