FA: *TJAX*Davis, Clingan, RJ, McCoy, DJ, RC, McGlynn, EJ, Moore, Jordan, BMeri, Rogers, Hatcher, Geathers, Sharpton, Porter, Hayward, Lauvao, Roberts

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Cooley really likes Baker and he mentioned some interesting things yesterday on his film review.

 

He said Baker "guesses" a lot.  When Baker guesses wrong he gets washed out, but when he guesses right, he is in the backfield doing the "swaggy" as he likes to be called.

 

Now... being that Seattle was VERY interested in Baker and I've been high on him myself... I think we need to (AGAIN, getting into how we use our players) re-sign Baker and change the scheme from a 2 gap to a 1 gap 3-4.  I think that solves a lot of issues.

 

We'll need to taper up back at LB but we have the money to do so.  You get Soliai or another stop gap in here and have Cofield and Baker playing end (and of course draft another NT early... like 3rd or 4th round) and then add an ILB like Angerer to the mix and we're cooking with some juice, men.

If we don't draft a NT this year, I'll be very disappointed.  I'd like to see us focus on drafting on the defensive side of the ball, signing a ILB and safety through FA, and adding some OL and a deep threat on offense.

 

I am a huge Hakeem Nicks fan, but I think his best days are behind him.  Looks like a shell of himself out there.  If we take a long look at him (which I expect us to do), I hope we work him out a lot to see how much he has left in the tank.

 

And we've both been very vocal supporters of Baker.  I love his game and think he gets better as he plays more.  I hope he sticks around.

[ConcordNCSkinsFan]

Trade:

Kirk Cousins for 2nd and 4th

 

 

 

 

 

Some of you are completely delusional about Cousins and his value. He's a 4th round pick who's started and won one game. The only way he gets traded for a 2nd and a 4th is if Shanahan leaves, goes to another team, and trades for him.

[DC9]

If we don't draft a NT this year, I'll be very disappointed.  I'd like to see us focus on drafting on the defensive side of the ball, signing a ILB and safety through FA, and adding some OL and a deep threat on offense.

 

I am a huge Hakeem Nicks fan, but I think his best days are behind him.  Looks like a shell of himself out there.  If we take a long look at him (which I expect us to do), I hope we work him out a lot to see how much he has left in the tank.

 

And we've both been very vocal supporters of Baker.  I love his game and think he gets better as he plays more.  I hope he sticks around.

 

Agreed.  I think the plan at NT needs to be either adding a stop gap (like Soliai) for a year or two and then drafting his replacement early... like 3rd or 4th round early.  I like Neild, but I think we've seen the last of him.  I'd be surprised if he came back, he just hasn't been the same ox since his injury.  Even Dontari Poe took about a year to get his crap together, fighting through some injuries, but he was the 11th pick in the draft... so if we go the stop gap route, we need to get a higher round replacement than a 6th or a 7th.

 

The other route we can go is signing a younger cat like Linval Joseph, and then drafting some depth in the 5th or 6th round.

 

At WR, I think we just need a competant number 2.  I'd argue that a group like the Green Bay Packers doesn't even have a true number one, but they have a bunch of #2's.  So having that one guy isn't essential in todays NFL as long as your QB is getting the ball to WRs who can separate.  Route running and hands are essential.  Size is secondary (though nice), but the player has to be able to get open and catch.

 

I think there are a few pretty good options out there in FA.  Though I'd be hesitant to tie up too much money there.  It'd have to be a proven guy so that we don't fall into the Morgan trap of potential, yet it has to be a guy that isn't going to force us to pay Garcon money.  That's a lot of money to tie up at one position group.  Griffin needs weapons, so we have to pick and choose our battles of how we want our team to play.  I think Decker should still be relatively affordable, even after his one big game.  We'll see where the Eagles want to go with Maclin, I'd love to have him here on a "show me" deal.  I think he'd look fantastic in BnG.

[method man]

I like some of the names mentioned so far. Three guys I'd really focus on targeting are:

 

1) Edelman

 

Not a superstar but this guy runs great routes and I don't think I've ever seen him drop anything. If we can get a stud slot receiver, that will help Robert out a lot. Not sure what type of push the Patriots are going to make given how much they've committed to Amendola who plays the same position.

 

2) Alexander

 

I love this idea. Definitely worth a gamble as a potential #2 WR next to Garcon. Obviously a low base salary, incentive laden deal would make sense here.

 

3) Walter Thurmond

 

By all accounts, this guy is a legit starting corner. He may come cheaper because he has been in Sherman's/Browner's shadow and because of the suspension. At worst, he can be a top nickel CB for us, replacing Wilson

[DC9]

3) Walter Thurmond

 

By all accounts, this guy is a legit starting corner. He may come cheaper because he has been in Sherman's/Browner's shadow and because of the suspension. At worst, he can be a top nickel CB for us, replacing Wilson

 

There are just so many good men out there that play good football it would make me hesitant to sign someone like this.  Being a douchebag is one thing, but drugs are another.  And this team has already displayed the lack of discipline required to refrain from using.  So I would side against this until we get a guy like PD93 back in the organization who can get through to these dudes.

 

That said, I'm a school of second chances guy and it could just be a cultural thing with that Seattle team.  But I would do my homework on this type of signing, because one bad move on his part and that costs you a year and the money. 

 

I'd also be surprised if Seattle let him go.  EDIT:  They have such a fantastic secondary as it is that Thurmond may be benefitting from that.  So if they do let him out there may be some truth to that. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Okay, before this season ... and even a couple months ago as starting QBs were going down, people were throwing the idea of a 1st being a possibility for Cousins. Didn't Jon Gruden even say he might be worth a couple 1st rounders? I know that was all shot down pretty quickly ... but what's to say we couldn't get a 2nd for him? or a 2nd and a 4th or a 5th? What's so assinine about that?

[DC9]

Okay, before this season ... and even a couple months ago as starting QBs were going down, people were throwing the idea of a 1st being a possibility for Cousins. Didn't Jon Gruden even say he might be worth a couple 1st rounders? I know that was all shot down pretty quickly ... but what's to say we couldn't get a 2nd for him? or a 2nd and a 4th or a 5th? What's so assinine about that?

 

It'll play out when it does.  This past year would've been the time to move him for me.  This years draft is deep at QB. 

 

It's as much about timing and necessity as anything else.

[martytheman]

It'll play out when it does.  This past year would've been the time to move him for me.  This years draft is deep at QB. 

 

It's as much about timing and necessity as anything else.

 

well at least the dude from oregon is not declaring this year. that should help somewhat.

[Rufus T Firefly]

It'll play out when it does.  This past year would've been the time to move him for me.  This years draft is deep at QB. 

 

It's as much about timing and necessity as anything else.

Casserly also said after his start last year that he would easily fetch a 2nd, and that the question is whether we could get two 2nds. I thought last offseason was the time to move him, too.

 

The depth of this year's QB draft class has been laughably over-hyped, btw. A couple of guys (Mariota, and likely Hundley) go back to school, and we recognize the warts on a couple of other guys, and it's a mediocre class.

 

My thought at this point is we should be able to get a 3rd this year for Cousins, and then a conditional in 2015. Like a 7th if he does nothing, but based on playing time and stats could rise, maybe all the way to a 2nd (though he would have to play great for that). Seems like a reasonable price.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

As someone else pointed out, we always think draft classes for QBs are deep then the vetting process occurs and underclassmen go back to school.

 

The ACL injury for the LSU QB ... Hundley and Marriota going back ... already damage what was supposedly impressive a week ago. Give it another month or so and it could be a mediocre or worse class.

[ZRagone]

Now... being that Seattle was VERY interested in Baker and I've been high on him myself... I think we need to (AGAIN, getting into how we use our players) re-sign Baker and change the scheme from a 2 gap to a 1 gap 3-4.  I think that solves a lot of issues.

 

If I remember right, wans't that the scheme that Dallas ran under Wade Phillips?

 

If so, all the more reason I'd like to have Wade.

 

Give me a Nose Tackle and a ILB that can cover with Wade, and resign Orakpo. I don't think Orakpo is the talent that Ware is, but I think Wade could use Orakpo a lot like he used Ware and really get the most out of him.

[DC9]

Casserly also said after his start last year that he would easily fetch a 2nd, and that the question is whether we could get two 2nds. I thought last offseason was the time to move him, too.

 

The depth of this year's QB draft class has been laughably over-hyped, btw. A couple of guys (Mariota, and likely Hundley) go back to school, and we recognize the warts on a couple of other guys, and it's a mediocre class.

 

My thought at this point is we should be able to get a 3rd this year for Cousins, and then a conditional in 2015. Like a 7th if he does nothing, but based on playing time and stats could rise, maybe all the way to a 2nd (though he would have to play great for that). Seems like a reasonable price.

 

Yeah, it's almost always over-hyped (QB class wise) but it'll depend on what a front office and coach covet more... a fresh/untouched prospect from the draft OR a guy who has some NFL experience yet is still young.

If I remember right, wans't that the scheme that Dallas ran under Wade Phillips?

 

If so, all the more reason I'd like to have Wade.

 

Give me a Nose Tackle and a ILB that can cover with Wade, and resign Orakpo. I don't think Orakpo is the talent that Ware is, but I think Wade could use Orakpo a lot like he used Ware and really get the most out of him.

 

Yes, Wade runs a 1 gap in Houston, too.

 

It would simplify the mission for the linemen but the LBs and safety will need to be on point.

[DC9]

ZR,

 

Here's a pretty decent write-up on the 3-4: http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2013/8/19/4631446/georgia-and-the-3-4-defense

 

Here's the "meat and potatoes" of it though:

 

 

 

Technical differences between the 2-gap and 1-gap 3-4:

 

The 2-gap alignment puts both Ends in 4-techniques on the offensive Tackle’s head. The NG plays a 0 tech, on the Center’s head. Both offensive guards are uncovered by linemen, creating two bubbles over both guards in the defensive alignment. Inside LBs stand over the bubble in any defensive front to keep it gap-sound. See figure 2.

 

The gap that the DL attack is selected based on the release of the blocker. They wait to see which way he goes, and then squeeze the gap. If the OL goes outside, you squeeze his outer half – meaning you push him into the direction that makes the hole on his outside smaller. If he goes inside, you squeeze his inner half. You are tightening up the hole the RB intends to enter and keeping that OL off the LB who is supposed to make the tackle.

 

When you play a 2-gap 3-4 this way, you really need mammoth defensive linemen, and in particular the NG. They all have to control that blocker and be able to tackle on either side of him, which is difficult to do. The NG in any 3-4, 1 or 2-gap, is the most important player on the defensive front. Any 3-4 team without a good NG will have a bad run defense (see Georgia Tech).

Additionally, with 2 linebackers covering two bubbles, you require big inside backers who can handle a block from a guard on every play in the event that your linemen cannot keep them free.

 

The type of coverage and defense they then play, in part due to the size, is usually a read-and-react style. Defenses like this drop the linebackers in zone coverage most of the time and usually only one of the outside ‘backers is a "Rush" linebacker, who attacks off the edge to generate a 4-man pass rush. The most prominent example of this style nowadays is the New England Patriots. The contrary example of a blitzing two-gap 3-4 would be the Pittsburgh Steelers.

 

The one-gap version is set up as a more aggressive style of defense on every snap. I believe much of it can be accredited to Bum Phillips. His son Wade runs it still today. It is very closely analogous to Under front 4-3. Most pro teams that do not use the 3-4 are playing the Under. The two defenses are very similar.

 

[MrJL]

Some of you are completely delusional about Cousins and his value. He's a 4th round pick who's started and won one game. The only way he gets traded for a 2nd and a 4th is if Shanahan leaves, goes to another team, and trades for him.

 

teams continue to trade for relatively untested QBs.  Hell, Seattle's trade for Matt Flynn happened AFTER they had already done the same thing with Charlie Whitehurst of the the Chargers.

[Royale]

What I want is for us to keep signing cheap options for now. Stopgap guys who don't burn you for years on end. We are going to fall into the same trap as always if we make a big splash this free agency. What kind of talent are these plays coming into? Right now we are signing a whole bunch of free agents to a 3-9 club and hoping we win a superbowl. If not, we have a ton of money tied up to people that aren't homegrown or too old most likely. You can't win at free agency. If you try that, then you don't have the money to resign your homegrown players. Luckily for us, the majority of our homegrown players with contracts coming up are mediocre to trash. We need a real GM or Shanahan to get his head together and start making solid drafts.

[skinny21]

Cooley really likes Baker and he mentioned some interesting things yesterday on his film review.

He said Baker "guesses" a lot. When Baker guesses wrong he gets washed out, but when he guesses right, he is in the backfield doing the "swaggy" as he likes to be called.

Now... being that Seattle was VERY interested in Baker and I've been high on him myself... I think we need to (AGAIN, getting into how we use our players) re-sign Baker and change the scheme from a 2 gap to a 1 gap 3-4. I think that solves a lot of issues.

We'll need to taper up back at LB but we have the money to do so. You get Soliai or another stop gap in here and have Cofield and Baker playing end (and of course draft another NT early... like 3rd or 4th round) and then add an ILB like Angerer to the mix and we're cooking with some juice, men.

Man, I like Baker a lot. Keep forgetting he's a FA for some reason.

I think we all agree that the biggest needs on D (aside from the re-signings) are 1) ILB, NT, S 2) DE and 3) corner. Switch to a one gap 3-4 with Baker in the middle and Cofield kicked out to DE and we can focus on ILB and S with depth brought in for DE and corner. Then we have more resources to devote to the offense. Really hope we go that route.

If I remember right, wans't that the scheme that Dallas ran under Wade Phillips?

If so, all the more reason I'd like to have Wade.

Give me a Nose Tackle and a ILB that can cover with Wade, and resign Orakpo. I don't think Orakpo is the talent that Ware is, but I think Wade could use Orakpo a lot like he used Ware and really get the most out of him.

Yep - Ratliff was a monster in the one gap scheme there (when healthy). I think Baker would be a good fit there. And Orakpo would definitely fit in the Ware mold. Their issue was always their secondary, but not going after a NT would free up resources to address S. Improved safety play (along with better push from the interior) and I think our secondary would be better then anything Dallas fielded under Wade.

Add a good ILB (or at least one to compete with Robinson and this could be a pretty solid D.

What I want is for us to keep signing cheap options for now. Stopgap guys who don't burn you for years on end. We are going to fall into the same trap as always if we make a big splash this free agency. What kind of talent are these plays coming into? Right now we are signing a whole bunch of free agents to a 3-9 club and hoping we win a superbowl. If not, we have a ton of money tied up to people that aren't homegrown or too old most likely. You can't win at free agency. If you try that, then you don't have the money to resign your homegrown players. Luckily for us, the majority of our homegrown players with contracts coming up are mediocre to trash. We need a real GM or Shanahan to get his head together and start making solid drafts.

Switch to a 1 gap 34 and we can vastly improve with a good S signing and either a solid-good FA ILB or one taken high in the draft. Add a DE and corner through the draft to groom and we're in good shape.

[DC9]

Kiper was on with Andy Pollin this morning and he said that Cousins should fetch an early second rounder this year.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Kiper was on with Andy Pollin this morning and he said that Cousins should fetch an early second rounder this year.

That's what I'm talkin' bout! So it wouldn't be totally out of the realm of possibilities that we trade him for a mid-to-late 2nd and an additional 4th, based on values.

 

I wonder if the Browns, with their 2nd 1st rounder at the end of the 1st would be a willing trade partner. I guess it depends on where they end up drafting with their 1st number 1 and what QBs might be available ... but I could see them opting to upgrade somewhere else early on and utilizing that late 1st to get an immediately-ready QB.

[martytheman]

That's what I'm talkin' bout! So it wouldn't be totally out of the realm of possibilities that we trade him for a mid-to-late 2nd and an additional 4th, based on values.

 

I wonder if the Browns, with their 2nd 1st rounder at the end of the 1st would be a willing trade partner. I guess it depends on where they end up drafting with their 1st number 1 and what QBs might be available ... but I could see them opting to upgrade somewhere else early on and utilizing that late 1st to get an immediately-ready QB.

 

well they got a good look at what he is capable of last year.. would be interesting to say the least. doubt it happens though.

KC with a beast to throw to like Josh Gordon would be pretty good for him, assuming he stays upright, since the brownies OL likes to get qb's killed.

[DC9]

That's what I'm talkin' bout! So it wouldn't be totally out of the realm of possibilities that we trade him for a mid-to-late 2nd and an additional 4th, based on values.

 

I wonder if the Browns, with their 2nd 1st rounder at the end of the 1st would be a willing trade partner. I guess it depends on where they end up drafting with their 1st number 1 and what QBs might be available ... but I could see them opting to upgrade somewhere else early on and utilizing that late 1st to get an immediately-ready QB.

 

He said that Johnny Football should be a top 10 pick and Teddy Bridgewater should be a top 5 pick.  We'll have to wait and see after the combine.

 

To combat those who stand by QBs always being overhyped... you are correct.  Every year we see "Five QBs should go in the first round this year" and "This is the deepest QB class since 1983" and we only see two or three (or one) go early.

 

That said, how many Mocks had us drafting Bradford at 4 and Cam Newton at 10?  Only to see them both go #1 overall.

 

So realistically, yes we won't see as many QBs go early as you would think, but the ones that do go will go higher than they should.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

well they got a good look at what he is capable of last year.. would be interesting to say the least. doubt it happens though.

KC with a beast to throw to like Josh Gordon would be pretty good for him, assuming he stays upright, since the brownies OL likes to get qb's killed.

 

What's to say they don't use their 1st rounder on an OT or interior OL? Their defense is decent. Their QB situation is pretty bad though. They've got some nice weapons on offense to build around and I think Kirk could step right in and start with the two years under his belt.

[DC9]

well they got a good look at what he is capable of last year.. would be interesting to say the least. doubt it happens though.

KC with a beast to throw to like Josh Gordon would be pretty good for him, assuming he stays upright, since the brownies OL likes to get qb's killed.

 

For me, the best case scenario is Houston keeps Kubiak and they draft Clowney or Barr early... and then trade their 2nd rounder to us for Cousins, who is already familiar with their system.

 

Two early second rounders would be great (especially if Pittsburgh ends up losing theirs, we'd basically be picking 32nd unless we win a game).

[JamesMadisonSkins]

He said that Johnny Football should be a top 10 pick and Teddy Bridgewater should be a top 5 pick.  We'll have to wait and see after the combine.

 

To combat those who stand by QBs always being overhyped... you are correct.  Every year we see "Five QBs should go in the first round this year" and "This is the deepest QB class since 1983" and we only see two or three (or one) go early.

 

That said, how many Mocks had us drafting Bradford at 4 and Cam Newton at 10?  Only to see them both go #1 overall.

 

So realistically, yes we won't see as many QBs go early as you would think, but the ones that do go will go higher than they should.

 

So a lot of those mocks with us taking Gabbert too. Thank god we traded back ... that is one of the things I think Shanny did and does very well. Trade back when your man isn't there.

 

Saw a lot of teams reaching for Qbs lately. Weeden, Ponder, Locker (though that looks good if he's healthy), Manuel, etc.

 

The bottom line is, players end up going back to school. If Hundley goes back ... you could be looking at Bridgewater at #1 or Top 3 (depending on who has the pick) ... then a drop-off with Manziel in that next tier. Some teams may reach for that in the top 15 but if a team feels they are "close" they can just go BPA and trade their 2nd for Cousins. I think it's kind of a no-brainer at this point.

 

The benefit of trading for Cousins is you will really know right away if he's going to work. He's had time to sit so he should come in and be successful right away. No major grooming process. i guess that is a good and a bad but if a team gives up a 2nd for him and he doesn't pan out in year 1, at least they won't be stuck waiting around for 2-3 years to see if he develops ... which is what they'd have to do with a 1st rounder more likely than not.

For me, the best case scenario is Houston keeps Kubiak and they draft Clowney or Barr early... and then trade their 2nd rounder to us for Cousins, who is already familiar with their system.

 

Two early second rounders would be great (especially if Pittsburgh ends up losing theirs, we'd basically be picking 32nd unless we win a game).

 

That would be ideal. I, too, had them as an option. They are one of those teams that really is built to 'win now' but with the bad luck of the injuries and QB situation have fallen hard and fast. They may not want to sit around and groom the #1 overall pick ... or especially a 2nd rounder ... so it would make a lot of sense to swap Cousins for their 2nd. That would make me happy. Sure, we wouldn't have our own top 5 pick but it would be nice consolation to have two early 2nds and all that free agent money.

 

Also, if there IS a regime change, I imagine whoever the new head coach is will make trading Cousins his #1 priority. Make no secret that Griffin is 100% the man for the job. 

[martytheman]

So a lot of those mocks with us taking Gabbert too. Thank god we traded back ... that is one of the things I think Shanny did and does very well. Trade back when your man isn't there.

 

Saw a lot of teams reaching for Qbs lately. Weeden, Ponder, Locker (though that looks good if he's healthy), Manuel, etc.

 

The bottom line is, players end up going back to school. If Hundley goes back ... you could be looking at Bridgewater at #1 or Top 3 (depending on who has the pick) ... then a drop-off with Manziel in that next tier. Some teams may reach for that in the top 15 but if a team feels they are "close" they can just go BPA and trade their 2nd for Cousins. I think it's kind of a no-brainer at this point.

 

The benefit of trading for Cousins is you will really know right away if he's going to work. He's had time to sit so he should come in and be successful right away. No major grooming process. i guess that is a good and a bad but if a team gives up a 2nd for him and he doesn't pan out in year 1, at least they won't be stuck waiting around for 2-3 years to see if he develops ... which is what they'd have to do with a 1st rounder more likely than not.

 

That would be ideal. I, too, had them as an option. They are one of those teams that really is built to 'win now' but with the bad luck of the injuries and QB situation have fallen hard and fast. They may not want to sit around and groom the #1 overall pick ... or especially a 2nd rounder ... so it would make a lot of sense to swap Cousins for their 2nd. That would make me happy. Sure, we wouldn't have our own top 5 pick but it would be nice consolation to have two early 2nds and all that free agent money.

 

Also, if there IS a regime change, I imagine whoever the new head coach is will make trading Cousins his #1 priority. Make no secret that Griffin is 100% the man for the job. 

 

It would be nice if that were the case, but this is all based on the assumption that his trade value is 2nd round worthy. (which I'm praying it is)

I hope alot of the qb's go back to school this year, it will help drive up KC's value.. we would be in really good shape with $36 mil, and 2,2,3,4,4,5,6,7.

Alot of flexibility to improve this team in a hurry.

[DC9]

It would be nice if that were the case, but this is all based on the assumption that his trade value is 2nd round worthy. (which I'm praying it is)

I hope alot of the qb's go back to school this year, it will help drive up KC's value.. we would be in really good shape with $36 mil, and 2,2,3,4,4,5,6,7.

Alot of flexibility to improve this team in a hurry.

 

Where did we get the 2nd fourth?