We Have To Keep The Shanahans...

[PapaLazarou]

I find it suprising how close the results are.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1. The Skins are more organized and in better salary cap position than many other teams, with a lot more salary being freed up in 2014. Or perhaps you'd prefer the kinds of situations being brewed up in Dallas, Tampa Bay, etc.?

2. Candidly, do you feel today's offensive schemes from Shanahan are as bad as Zorn's? Or half of today's NFL offensive coordinators' offerings? Kyle Shanahan's play-calling is time-tested and legitimate. And he wouldn't last a nano-second on the open market, should the Skins let him go.

3. As for penalties on and off the field, should Shanahan be baby-sitting his players to ensure they didn't stray? A lot of teams get tagged with personal fouls, and those already carry financial implications --.so should Shanahan hurt his teams chances by suspending those players "dinged" during a lop-sided refereed game? A lot of teams are getting dinged -- it's not about the coaching, it's about players staying professional.

4. Who'd come here after we canned Shanahan? We'd be lucky to get a less competent version of Tampa Bay's staff.

 

1. I agree. I even said that he's running things better. One point though...if we are going to use the cap penalty as a crutch to defend Shanahan, we have to acknowledge that it has also forced him into this great cap situation too. 

 

2. I think our offense is better than it was under Zorn. I don't understand why you'd ask that when my point was that we are better than we were under Zorn. I just don't think that should be the end goal...to be marginally better as a team than when you were led by two guys in over their heads. Shanahan isn't just responsible for the offense, but for the entire team. He is 24-33 (42%). Zorn was 12-20 (38%). That modest improvement doesn't justify an extension or the money he's making in my opinion.

 

3. He's in charge of the entire process...selecting the players and coaching them. Yes, he is ultimately responsible for how the players on our team conduct themselves. I don't think he should babysit them, but they should be afraid to make these types of mistakes. Somehow, after having his system in place for 4 off-seasons, the core group of players that he selected should be more disciplined on and off the field. 

 

4. I disagree. If Allen is promoted to Shanahan's VP role and is the main football mind hiring a GM and coaching staff, I don't see why anyone would turn their nose up at a head coaching opportunity. There are 32 in the world. You can probably count on one hand how many legitimate options would turn it down. And, those are guys I don't think we should be pursuing anyway. I'm thinking the Grudens and Cowhers of the world. 

[Redskins Diehard]

Extension? Why would you extend someone when they haven't earned it?

..Except I mistweeted the PCL/LCL then corrected it with Acl/Lcl moments later.

Nothing against you personally. Or your sources. I just wouldn't put money on a coaching change because one of our "insiders" tweeted it. especially something like this that would be extremely close hold at this stage of the game.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Shanny is 48-57 the past 7 seasons...1 playoff appearance

 

Good digging. Pretty much since the 2000s, he's a guy who will get his team in the hunt a little less than half the time. In his last 10 years in Denver, he made the playoffs 4 times and missed the playoffs 6 times. Here, he's most likely going to have 1 appearance and 3 year outside looking in. That's roughly 1 playoff appearance every 3 years. 

 

Now, I want to note that I'm not minimizing that accomplishment, but I just believe we should set our sights higher at this point. He has been a large part of turning this team around and running a competent franchise, but Shanahan appears to have a ceiling. I would bet if he stuck around we'd win 6-10 games each year and have a couple playoff appearances...nothing to be ashamed of.  

 

With Griffin heading into his 3rd year in 2014, I think it's time to swing for the fences rather than play it safe. Right now, Shanahan is this franchise's equivalent of punting on 4th and inches from the opponent's 35 yard line. I'd rather go for it. 

Nothing against you personally. Or your sources. I just wouldn't put money on a coaching change because one of our "insiders" tweeted it. especially something like this that would be extremely close hold at this stage of the game.

 

What is your opinion on what should happen though? Taking someone's word for inside knowledge is one thing, but many of us know nothing and just believe the time has come. 

[Rex Tomb]

The Bi-Polarity of this message board makes me laugh

 

The top two threads - keep shanny, fire EVERYONE!

 

I want to see what Shanahan can do without a massive cap hit - bring in some O-line and maybe a quality DB or two and I think we'll see a huge difference.  Give him the last year of his contract, see what he can do without a significant handicap.

[Skinzfever2010]

I'm a huge Shanny supporter but like others have said it's a numbers game at this point

He's a dead man walking. There is no extension coming and no guarantee you let the man spend that much money on his players if he won't be here

[Redskins Diehard]

What is your opinion on what should happen though? Taking someone's word for inside knowledge is one thing, but many of us know nothing and just believe the time has come. 

My opinion? I have not seen the Swinging Gate or the double whammy of Buffalo game in Gibbs last season(not aware of missing safety formation to start the game and double timeout on the field goal) yet to be convinced it is time to move on.  That type of moment could come but it hasn't yet. 

 

We used to debate around here about this notion of being in "cap hell" and we largely laughed at the ESPN "experts" because we always seemed to find a way around it.  It came home to roost in the Haynesworth and Hall deals.  For those that argue that our organization "earned" that cap penalty I would largely agree.  Although the specific mechanics of how it was doled out was BS. 

 

Coaches are more involved in the outcome of a game in football than any other sport in my opinion.  But I do not go so far as to think that a coach should be able to "scheme" his team to victory no matter what horses he has to execute his scheme.  Tell Saban, or Briles, or whoever the flavor of the day college  coach is that he has to put 4 I-AA caliber players in the starting lineup on each side of the ball.  And that their backups have to be D-II caliber players.  See what their "schemes" do in those situations. 

 

Obviously not every one of Shanahan's moves have proven to be perfect.  I think the "damage" inflicted by the most egregious move...the McNabb trade...is way overstated and often only looks at what "went away" in that deal and not what also came back.  Head and shoulders, in my opinion at least, the most significant move he made was the trade for Griffin.  If I disagreed with that move I would say get rid of him.  But the jury is still out on that.  I have seen more good moves than bad moves as "GM".

 

So what I would like to see happpen? A one year extension.  An opportunity to see what offseason roster building looks like when we have a normal cap situation.  He should not be given the ability to put us back into "cap hell" by entering into ridiculous contracts.  And if that means the owner vetoing moves then so be it.  I think the fact that the so called "experts" on this board can't agree on an approach for replacing him says that there is no clear cut better option at this point. 

I'm a huge Shanny supporter but like others have said it's a numbers game at this point

He's a dead man walking. There is no extension coming and no guarantee you let the man spend that much money on his players if he won't be here

And I don't think there is any way you can say he is a dead man walking at this point.  if the season turns out 3-13...maybe...but that is unlikely.  If it turns out 10-6...definitely not...but that is equally unlikely.  In the 7-9 win range I think he gets the extension if he wants it. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Redskins Diehard, I see your point of view, but can't agree. This off-season is critical given the resources at our disposal. It's almost too much power to give someone who's on a probationary type of contract. And that's what a one-year extension is. I think you have to take your best educated guess and make a long-term decision after this season. The people who make the personnel decisions this off-season need to be the people who are here for the next several years. Period. 

 

You can't have Shanahan loading up on light offensive linemen and 3-4 defensive personnel that fit his scheme if firing him after 2014 is even a remote possibility. I think you either need to commit to him past next year or move on entirely. I would prefer the latter and believe that's the correct decision if you do an honest assessment. However, keeping him for another 5-year contract is probably wiser than letting him spend all that cap money, firing him after one more year, and then saddling the next regime with a bunch of guys who are very specialized. 

[Redskins Diehard]

Redskins Diehard, I see your point of view, but can't agree. This off-season is critical given the resources at our disposal. It's almost too much power to give someone who's on a probationary type of contract. And that's what a one-year extension is. I think you have to take your best educated guess and make a long-term decision after this season. The people who make the personnel decisions this off-season need to be the people who are here for the next several years. Period. 

 

You can't have Shanahan loading up on light offensive linemen and 3-4 defensive personnel that fit his scheme if firing him after 2014 is even a remote possibility. I think you either need to commit to him past next year or move on entirely. I would prefer the latter and believe that's the correct decision if you do an honest assessment. However, keeping him for another 5-year contract is probably wiser than letting him spend all that cap money, firing him after one more year, and then saddling the next regime with a bunch of guys who are very specialized. 

You don't allow the franchise to enter into contracts that hamstring the organization years into the future.  That is what good organizations do.  Take for instance the Josh Morgan contract...any coincidence that it essentially expires at the same time as the cap penalty?  Much like the Fletcher contract? 

 

So we bring in someone new. And they want to change systems, and schemes, and  so we burn up all our resources not just filling the gaps that we have for THIS system and scheme, but also for the new holes created by switching.  The difference is roster makeup are not quite as significant as it is made out to be in my opinion.  What makes it difficult to switch systems is when you have a bunch of people that are locked up long term.  What receiver, or corner, or safety(s) we pick up will likely be the same.  The replacement for Fletcher would be different and how we proceed with Orakpo would be different.  And the offensive line would be different although I wouldn't expect us to break the bank on 4 new starters either way.  We would probably bank on one of the late round draft picks filling a slot, and maybe signing a new player or 2.   The second round draft pick should be expected to fill one of the holes...and the current staff has shown to be at least decent at drafting. 

[Redskins Ruckus]

I want to keep Shanahan for 2 more years. I want to see what he does in Free Agency, and I don't want to see a new system brought in with a new coach. 

 

I'm erring on the side of conservation here. I'm tired of washing out of the division. 

 

Also, I don't mind Kyle at all. I don't think he's a catalyst for our woes. I think we could use a change-up on Defense, and Haslett should probably go.

[texasthunder]

After thinking about it for a couple days, i am kinda changing my stance.

Maybe we should keep Shanahan and the continuity it brings. 

We bring in a new coach, and we could face the same senario. The old "give him two or three years to develop his own staff, players etc", argument.

We have washed that wash way too many times over the last two decades.

 

 

I am most certain that Haslett has to go !!

Promote Raheem this week and see how he does for the rest of the season.

 

Maybe give Kyle the whole offseason to work with Robert, then see what happens next year ???

 

There is the chance that the team could move to Mike being just the VP of operations and Kyle getting promoted to HC.

And in that senario I would be ok if they bring in a dynamic play calling OC.

[Riggo#44]

I want to keep Shanahan for 2 more years. I want to see what he does in Free Agency, and I don't want to see a new system brought in with a new coach. 

 

I'm erring on the side of conservation here. I'm tired of washing out of the division. 

 

Also, I don't mind Kyle at all. I don't think he's a catalyst for our woes. I think we could use a change-up on Defense, and Haslett should probably go.

 

Totally agree.

 

Firing Shanahan=Firing Schotty. It would be a big mistake. We are on the verge of being a very, very good offense. Our running game is top notch. Griffin is showing signs of being an incredible passer and QB. Pushing the reset button would be a collossal, quick-fix blunder.

 

Haslett on the other hand...he should have run out of his 68 lives by now.

[Mania]

Totally agree.

 

Firing Shanahan=Firing Schotty. It would be a big mistake. We are on the verge of being a very, very good offense. Our running game is top notch. Griffin is showing signs of being an incredible passer and QB. Pushing the reset button would be a collossal, quick-fix blunder.

 

Haslett on the other hand...he should have run out of his 68 lives by now.

 

I agree with this and want to keep Shanahan around.  Here is the issue.  Burns and Haslett need to be fired and no decent assistant coach is going to want to come in without less than a 3 year contract.  That means you need to extend Shanahan two more years.  This also shows confidence in your coach rather than give him a minimal 1 year extension.

[Skinzfever2010]

You guys aren't getting it.

We're all fans here but we can all assess facts. It's a fact that Mike Shanahan was fired because of mediocre football teams that had high powered offenses and poor defenses.

He was supposed to have taken a few years off to assess successful teams and make adjustments on his coaching phillosphy moving forward.

Upon being hired in Washington Mike inherited a top 10 D with an aging D line that needed to be retooled. Instead of keeping the D in tact and making minor adjustments he completely changed the scheme. He also doesn't allow his DC to bring in his own coaches. Mike did this same thing in Denver.

Mike's teams have never been strong defensively. Firing a man you brought in and forced to run a scheme that the team was ill prepared for laid the foundation for the issues we have today.

People, we look like Norv Turner's redskins. Our offense is stronger than it was in years past but the sloppy undisciplened, penalty, missed tackles, dropped passes still plague our team

If we keep him one more year he gets his GM responsibilities taken from him. He doesn't get to pick his next DC or other coaches. Michael Shanahan is a dead man walking barring another 7 game winning streak.

We weren't supposed to be this bad this year even with the cap penalties.

[Commander PK]

Extension? Why would you extend someone when they

 

if the option is "blow it up and start again" or "retooling" (Code: "Blow it up and start again") vs. keeping Shanny.  I keep Shanny 10 times out of 10.  I don't want to start the process over again.  Another new coach has to figure out the organization, figure out the players, get a game plan in place.  By the time all that happens...another year or two have gone by.  Remember Schottenheimer?  

 

Defensively...time to make a change.  This organization needs to show that it values stability as well as results.  We will forever be in a state of "rebuilding" and "retooling" if we don't give somebody time to get things together.  

 

it's not like NO progress has been made.  This organization has definitely taken a turn for the better, but to deny that the cap penalty has not hurt this team immensely is to deny reality.   

[Smooters]

As long as Jim Haslett is not in the picture.

[Commander PK]

Bottom Line: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.  Maybe eventually you catch lightning in a bottle doing things that way, but in the meantime years, decades, go by between meaningful seasons.    

[Skinzfever2010]

Mike Shanahan, Kyle Shanahan, Jim Haslett are a trio lol

If Mike stays here it's only for a year and he's not Vice President/GM and he's forced by the powers that be to make changes to his inept coaching staff

Knowing Mike, he's not going to like that to much lol but he won't have much of a choice or an extension!

[Commander PK]

ask yourself this...what is the quickest way for the Redskins to make it back to a Super Bowl? Keep Shanahan and give him more time...stay the course.  Or hire another coach, another philosophy, having to bring in his players. etc. etc.  Maybe we see a Super Bowl by 2017 or 2018?  Look how long it took Bill Cowher to win a Super Bowl.  Years

[Redskins Diehard]

You guys aren't getting it.

He was supposed to have taken a few years off to assess successful teams and make adjustments on his coaching phillosphy moving forward.

Upon being hired in Washington Mike inherited a top 10 D with an aging D line that needed to be retooled. Instead of keeping the D in tact and making minor adjustments he completely changed the scheme. He also doesn't allow his DC to bring in his own coaches. Mike did this same thing in Denver.

Mike's teams have never been strong defensively. Firing a man you brought in and forced to run a scheme that the team was ill prepared for laid the foundation for the issues we have today.

We weren't supposed to be this bad this year even with the cap penalties.

so we should stick with one system because that is the system we had? I guess the next coach better have the same philosophy then!

we weren't supposed to be that good last year with a rookie qb. and the cap situation.

anyone know who the longest tenured coach has been since 91-92.

[Skinzfever2010]

What's also hurting Mike is the other teams who've gotten on the right track in 1-2 year time spans post being mediocre-garbage in the past.

I've loved some of the culture change but the undisciplined sloppy football has nothing to do with cap penalties lol

Dropped passes week after week and missed tackles week after week has nothing to do with needing 5 years to change

Mortgaging the franchise for a QB that you can barely protect has nothing to do with a cap penalty

Next year if he's here his son may indeed be gone and several other coaches on the offensive side and defensive side of the ball will be gone.

His GM title will be gone.

[tdigle]

To those who want to see Haslett fired: whom do you suggest Shanny should go after as a new DC?  

 

We all know that the 3-4 is here to stay and that Shanny isn't going to take a risk on an unproven positions coach.  

 

Also, Dom Capers, Dick LeBeau, and Vic Fangio aren't going anywhere.

 

Due to their successes this year, both Rob Ryan and Bob Sutton are probably not going to take anything less than a shot at HC.

 

That leaves us with Wade Phillips and Rex Ryan as contingent possibilities.  All signs point to the Texans continuing to be mediocre for the rest of the year.  The longer that Kubiak is out and Phillips stays, the greater than chance is that Phillips will serve as a scapegoat for an underwhelming season.  As far as Rex Ryan goes, it all depends on whether or not his team makes the playoffs.  If they make the playoffs, I think he's safe; if they don't, he's as good as gone (it's about 50/50 right now).  

 

What is Romeo Crennel up to?  He's a horrible HC but great DC. 

[TD Riggo]

Through four years with Shanahan we have seen a magical seven game stretch and nothing but ineptitude, failure, and a dash of potential.

 

You keep him this offseason and he will bring in more of his guys. This screws us because once he starts sucking again (which history points to unfortunately) in 2014 and is finally fired, the next guy is screwed with Shanny's guys that are signed to 4-5 year deals. 

 

 

I think that the 7-game stretch last year, plus the fact that our offense when it is clicking like it did in that 7-game stretch and is showing signs of returning to form this year (if our O-line can get their **** together), plus the fact that at least the first three years he was having to deal with over a decade of player personnel gross incompetence, gives Shanahan a great deal of momentum for a new contract. While I sometimes question Kyle's game plans, the one thing that HAS TO BE corrected is the fact that Haslett has presided over a major decline of our defense! I question why we changed over to a 3-4 defense. I question the way he misuses players like Orakpo and always has our DB's playing 5-10 yards off of the receivers in a zone defense scheme (this is the biggest reason why we kill on 1st and 2nd down and then allow so many 3rd down conversions). If the Shanahans get an extension, Mike has to either bring in another DC who CAN get the job done, or Haslett needs to start turning that unit around QUICK!

 

Defense is the one area that MUST be corrected before the end of this season or I think there is a good case that Shanahan may NOT deserve an extension.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

 I want to see what Shanahan can do without a massive cap hit - bring in some O-line and maybe a quality DB or two and I think we'll see a huge difference.  Give him the last year of his contract, see what he can do without a significant handicap.

He is responsible for the lousy OL we have now. If we give him the last year if his contract what is to say he doesn't use our cap space bringing in more undersized undervalued OL that won't fit for the next coach.

That's the next, you give him this offseason he is going to use that cap space and the team will be shaped in MS image for the next 3-5 years regardless of if he is here or not

[knowledge316]

Bottom line I don't trust Shanny in hiring a DC or bringing in new players. Look how well Burns has turned out or his inability to make changes to the OL.