Espn: Robert Griffin Iii Report: Better Mechanics

[757SeanTaylor21]

They drafted tavon Austin and bailey...huge playmakers right there

[Elessar78]

LaFleur's not exactly an unbiased source, of course he's gonna say his pupil has good mechanics. 

[Old Bay]

Gotta love John Keim.

 

 

I'm really glad he's getting a national audience now.

[RG3Hunna]

 

 

 

 

Have to disagree. I saw Wilson miss guys who were wide open at least once a game, if not two or three times. He's even done that this preseason numerous times already. Robert doesn't miss often, especially if the guy is wide open. I know that because it's been so nice that for once when someone got open deep we'd actually hit him almost every time instead of Campbell's constant over throws to Moss.   

 

The stats also indicate this. Robert is the more accurate passer. And if we wanted to be fair, we'd look at how Wilson's stats looked when he was running the more traditional Seahawk offense versus the one later in the season that incorporated our style of attack.

 

Not saying Wilson is a bad QB at all, of course. I just think we have the best one in every facet, by my eye test and by the stats adding to that evidence.

As for Kaep, from the article you linked to:

  

Griffin certainly doesn't have that issue, and shorter throws are a huge part of the NFL nowadays.

Exactly, I don't understand this infatuation with Russell Wilson and "accuracy". If you closely watch his game he's either throwing to his RB or FB who proceeds to gain chunks of yac or he's throwing short to a wr in a spread 4 WR set who gains chunks of yac. 

 

Every once in a while he'll throw something deep to the sideline that is impressive but I see him overthrow targets left and right. The one thing that helps him is he's usually running around back there in the pocket like doug flutie waiting for something to finally get open. But it's not like he's going threw his reads with tremendous rhythm like a Tom Brady or a Drew Brees. Half the time he's running around waiting for someone to get open and then baldwin or tate get open and then he throws it deep which becomes a 30 yard gain. 

[pjfootballer]

They drafted tavon Austin and bailey...huge playmakers right there

Unproven at this point and from what I've seen in the preseason, they have a lot to work on.

[MartinC]

This is not directly related to this topic but while we are talking about young QBs and how they progress here is an excellent article (IMO) on the art of quarterbacking and how a QB is taught to read coverages and how an offense designs pass plays to attack defensive coverages.

I was thinking of starting a thread with it but I'm not sure its stands alone. Be a good starting point though for some of the conversations we have on here about how we develop our drop back passing game and having RGIII become more comfortable with more complex reads.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9590729/how-new-class-promising-nfl-quarterbacks-reach-greatness

[LD0506]

Excellent find Martin, it really does help to remember that Robert, for all his superhuman powers, is still just a young QB facing his second season.

[1198skinsfuture]

Exactly, I don't understand this infatuation with Russell Wilson and "accuracy". If you closely watch his game he's either throwing to his RB or FB who proceeds to gain chunks of yac or he's throwing short to a wr in a spread 4 WR set who gains chunks of yac. 

 

Every once in a while he'll throw something deep to the sideline that is impressive but I see him overthrow targets left and right. The one thing that helps him is he's usually running around back there in the pocket like doug flutie waiting for something to finally get open. But it's not like he's going threw his reads with tremendous rhythm like a Tom Brady or a Drew Brees. Half the time he's running around waiting for someone to get open and then baldwin or tate get open and then he throws it deep which becomes a 30 yard gain. 

 

Exactly...I look at what our defense did to him last yr in the playoffs... and before rg3went down...they were doing NOTHING offensively and was getting beat 14-3...and had rg3 not gotten hurt they may have lost 35-10

[darrelgreenie]

People in this thread are saying things that are factually incorrect, but I don't have time to disprove them all.

Suffice it to say that a lot of fans struggle with being objective about Griffin. (Even though I bet some these same people didn't have him as the top QB from that class til after we drafted him) but I digress

Griffin's completion percentage is a whole 1.5 points higher then Wilson. So lets not be pretentious or hypocritical. Griffin/Wilson have about the same number of errant passes.

Also anyone that's actually compared our offense to Seattle knows that their offense requires Wilson to make more reads/progressions and requires him to make more intermediate downfield throws.

We are talking opinions here so let's not support our opinions with things that are factually incorrect.

Submitted-

Why would it be more fair to look at Wilson's stats before they added read-option?

[TSO]

People in this thread are saying things that are factually incorrect, but I don't have time to disprove them all.

Suffice it to say that a lot of fans struggle with being objective about Griffin. (Even though I bet some these same people didn't have him as the top QB from that class til after we drafted him) but I digress

Griffin's completion percentage is a whole 1.5 points higher then Wilson. So lets not be pretentious or hypocritical. Griffin/Wilson have about the same number of errant passes.

Also anyone that's actually compared our offense to Seattle knows that their offense requires Wilson to make more reads/progressions and requires him to make more intermediate downfield throws.

We are talking opinions here so let's not support our opinions with things that are factually incorrect.

Yes, I agree. Lets be factual. Kind of like how you mentioned RG3 "only" being 1.5 points higher as if percentage points when it comes to accuracy in the NFL mean little? Even poor QBs dont deviate too far from that percentage. But I guess since it doesn't support your position you can bring it up in a condescending manner since that's be "factual".

Or like how you mentioned the Seahawks offense being more about progressions and reading defenses while ignoring my point about Russell's stats BEFORE they started implementing our style of offense last season? You know, the stats that made people question whether he should be starting over Matt Flynn?

Yes, I agree. Lets be factual here and not pretentious or hypocritical. Especially when you throw accusations based on nothing but speculation like how us "fans struggle with being objective with RG3" or how some of those fans "probably didnt even have him rated as the top QB coming out last year".

Stay factual and heed your own advice dg, that would be nice.

[darrelgreenie]

This is not directly related to this topic but......Be a good starting point though for some of the conversations we have on here about how we develop our drop back passing game and having RGIII become more comfortable with more complex reads.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9590729/how-new-class-promising-nfl-quarterbacks-reach-greatness

I think it's both related and thread worthy.

I think people don't realize how effective yet simple our play-action/read-option based passing attack was last season.

Kyle schemed up an offense where the passing game had few options yet those options were usually open.

[TSO]

Submitted-

Why would it be more fair to look at Wilson's stats before they added read-option?

Because Robert was doing what he was doing all year and your argument about Wilson is based on him having to go through more reads/progressions than Robert when that simply wasn't true a little over half way through the season when Wilson actually started playing consistently well?

Furthermore, your arguments don't take into account at all the type if field position Russel was given throughout the entire year due to his stud defense whereas Robert was literally carrying the team on his back on his own, especially the first half if the year.

 

Sorry for all the poor structure here, on my phone typing this.

[autoidiodyssey]

People in this thread are saying things that are factually incorrect, but I don't have time to disprove them all.

Suffice it to say that a lot of fans struggle with being objective about Griffin. (Even though I bet some these same people didn't have him as the top QB from that class til after we drafted him) but I digress

Griffin's completion percentage is a whole 1.5 points higher then Wilson. So lets not be pretentious or hypocritical. Griffin/Wilson have about the same number of errant passes.

Also anyone that's actually compared our offense to Seattle knows that their offense requires Wilson to make more reads/progressions and requires him to make more intermediate downfield throws.

We are talking opinions here so let's not support our opinions with things that are factually incorrect.

Submitted-

Why would it be more fair to look at Wilson's stats before they added read-option?

 

Considering the time RG3 missed I'm not seeing the "more intermediate downfield throws". I'm assuming 11-30 yds is intermediate. 

 

11-20 yds

Wilson - 50/88 56.8% avg. 9.38

RG3 - 52/83 62.7% avg. 13.8

 

21-30 yds

Wilson - 12/27 44.4% avg. 15.67

RG3 - 11/18 61.1% avg. 17

[darrelgreenie]

-submitted

What have I said that's factually incorrect?

Russell was never in danger of losing his job to Flynn.

Lol, you don't find it hypocritical to want to dismiss Wilson's stats from 'before they implemented OUR style of offense'?

The same style of offense you want dismiss for Wilson is the offense that Griffin uses. By your logic shouldn't it be 'fair' to dismiss alll Griffins stats?

[TSO]

-submitted

What have I said that's factually incorrect?

Russell was never in danger of losing his job to Flynn.

Lol, you don't find it hypocritical to want to dismiss Wilson's stats from 'before they implemented OUR style of offense'?

The same style of offense you want dismiss for Wilson is the offense that Griffin uses. By your logic shouldn't it be 'fair' to dismiss alll Griffins stats

 

When did I say you said something factually incorrect? I said "kinda like" in my response to that post. See, I can play the semantics game too, dg, lol. Believe me, I'm good at it, ask my wife.

 

And I never said that Russel was in danger of losing his job to Flynn, did I? I said people were questioning whether Flynn should start instead. Was there any point in the year where ANYONE said RG3 should be benched? Again, for someone so keen on making sure everyone gets exactly what the depths of your inner soul meant when you said something, you'd think you would give me the same courtesy. 

 

And, no, it's not hypocritical at all. Why? Because I'M NOT DISMISSING THEM. Who said I wanted to dismiss anything? I brought that up IN DIRECT RESPONSE to you downplaying RG3's better accuracy stats because "Wilson goes through more reads/progressions".

 

You don't see the difference there? How is it fair to downplay RG3's accuracy stats when Wilson was not nearly as accurate in the more traditional offense that you're claiming gives him the advantage in the argument? If you want me to apply context (more reads/progressions) to Wilson's situation, than shouldn't you (how was he when he played in that style of offense as opposed to ours)?

 

Don't see why this is difficult. 

 

And, you know what? I'm still bothered about your "factually incorrect" post. You started all of this by saying such "facts" as: 

 

 

 

Wilson to my eye is was the best rhythm passer (accuracy included) from last years rookie class.

 

 

So you have no problem with saying "my eye" (yup, real factual stuff there) and then you have the audacity to respond to people ACTUALLY BRINGING STATS INTO IT by telling them to be factually correct? I mean, do you not see yourself? I can't believe you'd actually use the term hypocrisy with a clear conscience, lol. 

 

DG, I seriously don't care enough about Wilson (who I think is a good QB) to get into this with you, but this is ridiculous.

[darrelgreenie]

submitted-No need to get all worked up bro. The post I responded to wasn't even directed at you. Its was a reponse to thread and several posts within. I asked you a question at the end of that post. you took it upon yourself to get all worked up.

 

 And I don't post to play semantics games. I post to talk football without emotion nor contentiousness.

Sometimes talking football require sublime distinctions.

 

My statement remains. Its fine to talk opinions. But don't throw statements that are factual incorrect to support your opinion.

 

Yes to my eye Wilson is the best rhythm passer from last years crop. If you want to discuss my rationale I'm game.

I've already explained part of the reason. But in sum Wilson's executes a more traditional passing game then Griffin and therefore if nothing more then sheer quantity has more experience in a rhythm drop back passing game. I would think this statement is apparent under honest assessment.

 

Here is your statement that I directly disagree with:

 I saw Wilson miss guys who were wide open at least once a game, if not two or three times. He's even done that this preseason numerous times already. Robert doesn't miss often, especially if the guy is wide open.

This cannot be an accurate when Griffin and Wilson comp % are 65.6 and 64.1 respectively. Wilson cannot miss that many more passes then Griffin and remain only 1.5% points behind him.

We're not talking about the difference between Griffin and Luck which 65.6 vs 54.1.

 

But, yes this is ridiculous.

We both love Griffin, we both love the Burgundy and Gold.

I happen to think Wilson is better rhythm passer at this point in their careers.

[darrelgreenie]

Considering the time RG3 missed I'm not seeing the "more intermediate downfield throws". I'm assuming 11-30 yds is intermediate. 

 

11-20 yds

Wilson - 50/88 56.8% avg. 9.38

RG3 - 52/83 62.7% avg. 13.8

 

21-30 yds

Wilson - 12/27 44.4% avg. 15.67

RG3 - 11/18 61.1% avg. 17

I get my stats from SI:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/25712/passing_splits.html

Griffin 278/393 passes 10 yards or less = 70%

Wilson 259/393 passes 10 yards or less= 66%

 

Not a huge amount but more significant then the difference in comp% which was 6 passes.

[NoCalMike]

Part of the problem in making these comparisons and why it makes people have to revert to using "their eyes" is because different QBs run different offenses.

 

 

I don't think it is fair to RGIII to ding him because Kyle Shanahan designed an offense that he was highly successful running.  How is this any different than Alex Smith sucking for most of his career until Harbaugh found a way to design an offense around his strengths?  That is the coaches job.

 

I think what people are saying is that Wilson's numbers started to improve dramatically when Seattle implimented the read option into their offense and cut down on the progressions/reads he had to make in the passing game.  In fact if you go back to 2012, I don't even remember a lot of the uber-praise for Wilson until around November when he started to really turn it on. Up until then Seattle was winning very close games because their defense gave up 11 points at home and 15 on the road.

 

Imagine the difference if the 'Skins had that kind of defense?

 

Something that made RGIII's rookie year really stand out to me was his lack of making costly mistakes.  No matter how good a rookie QB can be, one thing you expect them to do a good amount of times is make mistakes. Shanahan's offense required RGIII to drop back and get the ball out of his hands quickly, I really expected him to force the ball into bad situations a lot more then he did.  He actually showed a lot of discipline regarding when not to throw the ball and instead buy time to find somewhere else to go with it. He was also bailed out on a few occassions with some really good catches too, admittingly.

[darrelgreenie]

Part of the problem in making these comparisons and why it makes people have to revert to using "their eyes" is because different QBs run different offenses....................................I think what people are saying is that Wilson's numbers started to improve dramatically when Seattle implimented the read option into their offense and cut down on the progressions/reads he had to make in the passing game.  In fact if you go back to 2012, I don't even remember a lot of the uber-praise for Wilson until around November when he started to really turn it on. Up until then Seattle was winning very close games because their defense gave up 11 points at home and 15 on the road.

IIRC the Seahawks added read-option after their bye-week 10-11. Wilson was still playing good ball prior to then.

What I don't understand what difference it makes if Wilson numbers improved after they added read-option when our offense uses read-option also? If anything Wilson was playing at schematic disadvantage for 10 weeks. And still put up excellent numbers.

[NoCalMike]

Why is it a schematic dis-advantage if that is what he was learning from the beginning of his training?

 

I don't necessarily buy that one scheme is harder than another because one has 3 progressions and one has 4 progressions. (over-simplified).  There are a TON of things that go into every scheme regardless of how many times you run a 4 WR set.

 

There will still always be a ton of things to look for and recognize at the snap of the ball.  It is isn't as simple as "Well you only sent out 2 WRs on more plays than we did, therefore our scheme is more difficult"

[Mahons21]

So if one scheme uses the pass to setup the run, and a different scheme uses the run to setup the PA pass.

 

You don't see how the first scheme is more difficult for the QB to operate than the second?

[darrelgreenie]

Do you agree that read-option was a schematic advantage?

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Here is your statement that I directly disagree with:

This cannot be an accurate when Griffin and Wilson comp % are 65.6 and 64.1 respectively. Wilson cannot miss that many more passes then Griffin and remain only 1.5% points behind him.

We're not talking about the difference between Griffin and Luck which 65.6 vs 54.1.

 

Of their incomplete passes, Griffin had more passes on the money that were dropped where Wilson had more passes overthrown or just inaccurate. 

[darrelgreenie]

If what you say is even true it's still only 6 passes.

[NoCalMike]

The read option might have been a schematic advantage until the ball leaves RGIII's hands. At that point it is still on the QB to make the necessary reads & throws.