***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[TradeTheBeal!]

I like gooning.

[Hersh]

27 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Here the facts.

 

Players and teams in the NBA today are better today than teams have ever been at any point in its history.

Players and teams in the NFL today are better today than teams have ever been at any point in its history.

Players and teams in MLB today are better today than teams have ever been at any point in its history.

Players and teams in the NHL today are better today than teams have ever been at any point in its history.

Olympians today are better today than Olympians have ever been at any point in history.

 

We can talk about these team and that team from whatever era. I had a poster of Larry Bird sitting in a nest on my wall. Hell, I had the George Gervin Ice Man poster on my wall. I had a pop-o-matic basketball game that was endorsed by the freaking ABA, man. I respect the past.

 

But Larry Bird never had to deal with a 7 footer who was faster than him, stronger than him, and taller than him that also shot the ball from distance better than he did. Kevin Durant and Lebron James are not basketball players so much as they are evolutionary leaps forward.

 

That's really all that Kerr is saying.

 

 

This is laughably wrong as it relates to skills in basketball and baseball and really most sports. It's not that players have taken some quantum leap, it's that the training has changed, the specialization has changed, the rules of games have changed, etc. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1 minute ago, AJ* said:

 

 

Players are stronger and faster? Sure. Better? Ummmm no lol. This is the three point chucker ball era and it looks pretty because they've handcuffed defenders in the last decade. This era has diminished skills as well as diminished physicality. It's chuck a three or go all the way to the rim because players today don't have to worry getting hammered. The midrange game is just about dead. Low post skills and footwork are a sick joke. The so-called "best player in the world" has no post skills, a sub-par midrange game, and can't play off-ball. He stiff-arms defenders who can't touch him and bullrushes to the rim for layups but is scared to death to get fouled in the final minutes because he can't make free throws. He has pretty stats in an uptempo game where no defense is being played though so that's supposed to make him the best player lol. I pray more players start emulating Kawhi Leonard's game. That guy is proficient in the low post, midrange, and beyond the arc and (gasp) actually plays defense. He's a throwback old school players who were actually skilled and it's no wonder that Popovich had him study Jordan, Pippen, Barkley and Bowen. 

 

Were you smoking a cigar and wearing a white undershirt while writing that?

 

I actually do think there is an argument to be made for elimination/lengthening the three point line, because it has distorted the game pretty dramatically. At the same time, it's kind of awesome to watch. A step back 19 footer is a thing, I guess, but I don't really miss it that much.

 

It's kind of the same way in baseball where everyone under 40 has realized that sacrifice bunts are stupid and only 1 percent of the league should try to steal a base.

 

I also think we have a distorted view of the great "post play" from the past. For every Hakeem, there was two Acie Earls and three Eric Montrosses.

 

Let's look at the glory years we all miss. And really look at them.

 

1994-1995 NBA Season

 

This is remembered for the run of the Shaq/Penny Magic to the Finals where they were eviscerated by Hakeem and his 47 win squad.

 

Seriously, a 47 win team swept its way to the championship.

 

But the important thing here is the emergence of Shaq - a player known for his incredible work ethic, incredible foot work, and attention to detail in his game. Also for being fat and not being able to make free throws.

 

The big challenge in the east was the never-going away Pacers and their third best player of ....wait for it....Derrick McKey along with the Knickerbockers and the rapidly ossifying Patrick Ewing. This is right around the time that Anthony Mason emerged as an NBA superstar. The fact that Anthony Mason was a superstar is really all you need to know about mid 90s basketball.

 

The West was actually kind of interesting with the last gaps of the Prime Dream Teamers - Barkley, Robinson, StocktonMalone. Also, Joe Klein was still a starting center in the NBA at this point. Because, you know, footwork.

 

4 minutes ago, Hersh said:

You keep bringing up the 3 point line as if it's comparable. Do you understand when the 3 point line came to be and why it's irrelevant that some tall guy can handle the ball from far away as if that's the way it in the 70's and 80's. 

 

It's also silly to say teams didn't play defense in the past. They played within the rules of the game at the time. You seem to not want to grasp the differences in the game and thus dismiss players that were cultivated in a different time by claiming them less skilled. 

 

I started watching the NBA around 79/80. When the Pistons started playing defense in the late 80s, it was shocking. It felt like they were somehow cheating. Again, I was a Bird fan, and there were moments where he was double-teamed by Rodman and Salley and I would get angry. "Can they do that?!?!?!!"

[Bozo the kKklown]

4 minutes ago, Hersh said:

You keep bringing up the 3 point line as if it's comparable. Do you understand when the 3 point line came to be and why it's irrelevant that some tall guy can handle the ball from far away as if that's the way it in the 70's and 80's. 

 

It's also silly to say teams didn't play defense in the past. They played within the rules of the game at the time. You seem to not want to grasp the differences in the game and thus dismiss players that were cultivated in a different time by claiming them less skilled. 

I didn't bring up the 3 point line to say Porzingis could shoot there. (which he can and shows his skillset)

 

I brought it up to say big men were not trusted to handle the ball back then unless you were David Robinson or Hakeem. Now we have a guy in Porzingis who can and does.

 

And in the nicest way, teams did not play anywhere near the defense they play now. That is mostly down to the elimination of illegal defense. 

 

And you have continuously dismissed the ability of players of today to be able to adapt to the prior era. You also keep wanting to force scenarios to confirm your bias.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

4 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

This is laughably wrong as it relates to skills in basketball and baseball and really most sports. It's not that players have taken some quantum leap, it's that the training has changed, the specialization has changed, the rules of games have changed, etc. 

 

Have you watched Kevin Durant play basketball? He's taller than Hakeem and does.......THAT!!!

[Hersh]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

I didn't bring up the 3 point line to say Porzingis could shoot there. (which he can and shows his skillset)

 

I brought it up to say big men were not trusted to handle the ball back then unless you were David Robinson or Hakeem. Now we have a guy in Porzingis who can and does.

 

And in the nicest way, teams did not play anywhere near the defense they play now. That is mostly down to the elimination of illegal defense. 

 

And you have continuously dismissed the ability of players of today to be able to adapt to the prior era. You also keep wanting to force scenarios to confirm your bias.

 

Because you won't be hand checked and there is less physical play. 

 

Curry would be great in any era because of their basketball IQ. Durant would still be great but he would have been a different type of player in another ERA

 

Your last sentence is 

[justice98]

39 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

But Larry Bird never had to deal with a 7 footer who was faster than him, stronger than him, and taller than him that also shot the ball from distance better than he did. Kevin Durant and Lebron James are not basketball players so much as they are evolutionary leaps forward.

 

That's really all that Kerr is saying.

 

 

I always am reminded that Lebron is the same size as Karl Malone.  

Edited June 16, 2017 by justice98

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Because you won't be hand checked and there is less physical play. 

 

Curry would be great in any era because of their basketball IQ. Durant would still be great but he would have been a different type of player in another ERA

a 7'3", 240 lb Kristaps Porzingis is not gonna be worried about handchecking. Not from a small guard, or not from Felton Spencer or Benoit Benjamin. They would probably be confused as to why he out there, ffs.

Edited June 16, 2017 by BenningRoadSkin

[Hersh]

3 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Have you watched Kevin Durant play basketball? He's taller than Hakeem and does.......THAT!!!

 

And has no post game and can get to the basket with no problem without being hand checked. The presumption that players would be the same in other eras is the mistake. Durant would still be great but he would have a different game in other ERAs because of the coaching and the rules. 

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

a 7'3", 240 lb Kristaps Porzingis is not gonna be worried about handchecking. Not from a small guard, or not from Felton Spencer or Benoit Benjamin. They would probably be confused as to why he out there, ffs.

 

It's not small guards that he would be playing against. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Just now, Hersh said:

 

And has no post game and can get to the basket with no problem without being hand checked. The presumption that players would be the same in other eras is the mistake. Durant would still be great but he would have a different game in other ERAs because of the coaching and the rules. 

 

You are really hung up on this hand-check thing which was really just a way to let people who were overmatched at man to man defense hold.

 

Lebron and Durant would laugh at Kelly Tripuka's hand-check and dunk him into the third row.

 

The elimination of the illegal defense has made scoring 10 times more difficult than the hand check did. In the 90s, Lebron and Kyrie would run 9,000 pick and rolls a game and Lebron would either dunk the poor guard switched to him into the concession stand or Kyrie would pull the 270 power forward into an iso and score an uncontested layup. We see what happens now in those instances where a Kyrie or Steph get iso'ed on a big on the perimeter.

6 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

And has no post game and can get to the basket with no problem without being hand checked. The presumption that players would be the same in other eras is the mistake. Durant would still be great but he would have a different game in other ERAs because of the coaching and the rules. 

 

It's not small guards that he would be playing against. 

 

Right, it's Joe Klein and Bill Wennington.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Thats the other thing. Kelly Tripuka and Kiki Vanderweighe were big time scorers in the hard ass hand check era.

 

Mark Price made 4 All NBA teams and one time made the first time in this overpowering and physical defensive era. Fat Lever made an All NBA team.

[Hersh]

1 minute ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

You are really hung up on this hand-check thing which was really just a way to let people who were overmatched at man to man defense hold.

 

Lebron and Durant would laugh at Kelly Tripuka's hand-check and dunk him into the third row.

 

The elimination of the illegal defense has made scoring 10 times more difficult than the hand check did. In the 90s, Lebron and Kyrie would run 9,000 pick and rolls a game and Lebron would either dunk the poor guard switched to him into the concession stand or Kyrie would pull the 270 power forward into an iso and score an uncontested layup. We see what happens now in those instances where a Kyrie or Steph get iso'ed on a big on the perimeter.

 

But if bigs are more talented now, how come they wouldn't fair better than bigs in the past? Again, great players now would be great players in any era, but certainly some would have different games. It's not just hand checking but all the less physical play that's permitted in the NBA. 

 

Again, people keep dismissing training, how players were coached,etc, and dismissing that as if those players back in the day wouldn't have trained different or their skills wouldn't have changed. You guys also keep taking the best players and saying scrubs in other eras couldn't guard them. Who on GS for instance is guarding Kareem? 

[AJ*]

8 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

You do realize teams dindt play defense in the past.

 

Now their are actual defensive concepts.

 

Also, even Iverson has said Curry and Kyrie have better handles than him. Players shoot better now. You have a guy who is 7'2" in Porzingis who is able to handle the ball from the 3 point line.

 

10 years ago, you were able to carry a non offensive threat in your starting line up. Now teams exploit that player and they are unplayable. 

 

The game is so much better today than it was 10, 15, 20, even 25 years ago when the Knicks and Cavs thought great defense was holding the ball for 24 seconds and gooning.

 

What defensive concepts? Letting players waltz in the lane for layups? I think this NBA Finals probably had the most layups given up from both teams combined. Lebron had like 10 layups in the FIRST HALF of one of those games. The defense was a joke. I don't care what Iverson said about handles. Kyrie Irving palms the ball just about every time he dribbles just like Iverson used to. They don't even call the most blatant travel or palming violations anymore when it's in plain sight which again the so-called "best player in the game" does constantly. And I'll take a 7 footer who has post skills, can control the pace of the game, and defend the paint over a 7 footer who wants to play like a SG every single time. What have we come to when we're hyping a 7 footer who shoots 45% and rebounds like a SF?

[AJ*]

34 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Were you smoking a cigar and wearing a white undershirt while writing that?

 

I actually do think there is an argument to be made for elimination/lengthening the three point line, because it has distorted the game pretty dramatically. At the same time, it's kind of awesome to watch. A step back 19 footer is a thing, I guess, but I don't really miss it that much.

 

It's kind of the same way in baseball where everyone under 40 has realized that sacrifice bunts are stupid and only 1 percent of the league should try to steal a base.

 

I also think we have a distorted view of the great "post play" from the past. For every Hakeem, there was two Acie Earls and three Eric Montrosses.

 

Let's look at the glory years we all miss. And really look at them.

 

1994-1995 NBA Season

 

This is remembered for the run of the Shaq/Penny Magic to the Finals where they were eviscerated by Hakeem and his 47 win squad.

 

Seriously, a 47 win team swept its way to the championship.

 

But the important thing here is the emergence of Shaq - a player known for his incredible work ethic, incredible foot work, and attention to detail in his game. Also for being fat and not being able to make free throws.

 

The big challenge in the east was the never-going away Pacers and their third best player of ....wait for it....Derrick McKey along with the Knickerbockers and the rapidly ossifying Patrick Ewing. This is right around the time that Anthony Mason emerged as an NBA superstar. The fact that Anthony Mason was a superstar is really all you need to know about mid 90s basketball.

 

The West was actually kind of interesting with the last gaps of the Prime Dream Teamers - Barkley, Robinson, StocktonMalone. Also, Joe Klein was still a starting center in the NBA at this point. Because, you know, footwork.

 

 

I started watching the NBA around 79/80. When the Pistons started playing defense in the late 80s, it was shocking. It felt like they were somehow cheating. Again, I was a Bird fan, and there were moments where he was double-teamed by Rodman and Salley and I would get angry. "Can they do that?!?!?!!"

 

Ugh, It wasn't just Hakeem on that team lol. That Rockets team was plagued by injury during the season but added Clyde Drexler (another HOF to go along with Hakeem) in a midseason trade and peaked at the perfect time. So yeah, at first glance it appears a 47 win team (if you have no clue about history) swept their way to a title. It's not like Houston didn't have talent and championship experience. 

 

And Anthony Mason was NEVER, EVER a superstar lol. What are you talking about? He's barely mentioned at all, except for defense. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by AJ*

[justice98]

3 minutes ago, AJ* said:

And Anthony Mason was NEVER, EVER a superstar lol. What are you talking about? He's barely mentioned at all, except for defense. 

 

Yeah, I did a double take in that one.  lol

[Bozo the kKklown]

19 minutes ago, AJ* said:

 

What defensive concepts? Letting players waltz in the lane for layups? I think this NBA Finals probably had the most layups given up from both teams combined. Lebron had like 10 layups in the FIRST HALF of one of those games. The defense was a joke. I don't care what Iverson said about handles. Kyrie Irving palms the ball just about every time he dribbles just like Iverson used to. They don't even call the most blatant travel or palming violations anymore when it's in plain sight which again the so-called "best player in the game" does constantly. And I'll take a 7 footer who has post skills, can control the pace of the game, and defend the paint over a 7 footer who wants to play like a SG every single time. What have we come to when we're hyping a 7 footer who shoots 45% and rebounds like a SF?

When does this happen?

 

And do you have any empirical data for anything you said about the layups, or was it one of those eyeball tests things?

 

Also, Jordan used to palm the ball too. They stopped calling palming as strictly in the late 70s.

 

And you should have showed more love for the Zach Randolph and Al Jefferson types.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

31 minutes ago, AJ* said:

 

Ugh, It wasn't just Hakeem on that team lol. That Rockets team was plagued by injury during the season but added Clyde Drexler (another HOF to go along with Hakeem) in a midseason trade and peaked at the perfect time. So yeah, at first glance it appears a 47 win team (if you have no clue about history) swept their way to a title. It's not like Houston didn't have talent and championship experience. 

 

And Anthony Mason was NEVER, EVER a superstar lol. What are you talking about? He's barely mentioned at all, except for defense. 

 

I was going to school in New Jersey and listened to a lot of NYC radio. Anthony Mason was treated like Moses Malone in New York. They hype came building until he made an All NBA third team during his first year in Charlotte.

 

It was an extremely brief period but Anthony Mason was a huge deal.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

By the way, 1997 All NBA was insane. The average age of the first team was 114 years old. The third team was John Stockton chaperoning four guys who couldn't be left alone in a large city.

 

 

 

FIRST TEAM

F: Grant Hill
F: Karl Malone
C: Hakeem Olajuwon
G: Michael Jordan
G: Tim Hardaway

SECOND TEAM

F: Scottie Pippen
F: Glen Rice
C: Patrick Ewing
G: Gary Payton
G: Mitch Richmond

THIRD TEAM

F: Vin Baker
F: Anthony Mason
C: Shaquille O'Neal
G: Anfernee Hardaway
G: John Stockton

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

I like gooning.

 

Imagine how good the Wizards would be if Gortat was allowed to suckerpunch someone once a month. No one would go in the lane.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

By the way, I may write a 15,000 word post on ALL NBA third-teamers through the years.

 

Michael Redd was All NBA once?!?!?!?!

 

Eddie Jones?!?!?!?

[Bozo the kKklown]

Thats the other thing that makes today better than 20 years ago. There is so much talent in today's NBA, while the 90s were dealing with all those expansion teams.

I never liked Reggie Miller, but I do feel bad that he had to be the number one guy on a decent team instead of the 2nd option on a championship team.

 

 

[Hersh]

It's comical how you guys try to point out bad players that made all-star teams yet if Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love didn't have Lebron, the Cavs would be under .500 and would suck. Ya know, cause there is so much talent now. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

No one said those players were bad. Just that they aren't the type of player who makes All NBA teams.

 

And with the international player boom, and the lack of expansion teams since 2003 (which was different than six teams in eight years stretch from 88-96), the league's talent is deep.

 

The 90s were nowhere near as good as you think, nor were the early 2000s. D'Antoni changed the NBA, for the better.

[Mr. Sinister]

11 minutes ago, Hersh said:

It's comical how you guys try to point out bad players that made all-star teams yet if Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love didn't have Lebron, the Cavs would be under .500 and would suck. Ya know, cause there is so much talent now. 

 

So you think there was just as much, or more talent then, as there is now? (Just curious)

Edited June 16, 2017 by Mr. Sinister

[justice98]

41 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

By the way, I may write a 15,000 word post on ALL NBA third-teamers through the years.

 

Michael Redd was All NBA once?!?!?!?!

 

Eddie Jones?!?!?!?

 

What was wrong with Michael Redd?  He was a really good player for a 5-6 year stretch in the middle of his career.  I could believe he got one in there.

 

 

Eddie Jones was meh though.  

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

3 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

What was wrong with Michael Redd?  He was a really good player for a 5-6 year stretch in the middle of his career.  I could believe he got one in there.

 

 

Eddie Jones was meh though.  

 

I remember Michael Redd being a thing. I just never thought of him as Top 15 in the league though (which I guess ALL NBA really isn't since it limits you to positions).