***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[daveakl]

7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kevin Love is an All Star.  Al Horford is a max contract role player in decline.

If you really believe this then there is no point in discussing it any more.

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by daveakl

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Wiggins was not a sketchier prospect than Fultz. That's just not a true statement. Wiggins was anointed as the next great NBA wing at like 16. His season at Kansas actually wasn't bad at all an his team made the tournament and he lead them in scoring. 

 

Also no no one is downplaying how good Fultz could be, but you are downplaying how great Kyrie is and could become. (He just turned 25 a few weeks ago)

 

I actually think Philly could become a powerhouse but that's because of Embiid being the transcendent talent at the five, and not because of Simmons and Fultz.

 

But you are being a homer with the Kyrie slander.

 

I remember Wiggins's freshman season well.  I also remember all of the hype he had in High School.  And I remember all of the hype that Shabazz Muhammad, Andre Drummond, and Harrison Barnes had in High School as well.  During their freshman years it became clear that they weren't those guys and that was true of Wiggins too.

 

Fultz is the real deal.  He wasn't the #1/#1 because he came into the season as the consensus top guy and had a ton of hype like Wiggins, he got picked there because of his play.

 

Embiid is the foundation for a dominant defense and inside scoring game, and I agree that he's probably going to be the best player in the NBA at some point if he can stay on the floor.  But all of that's true of Anthony Davis too.  You've got to have guards to do anything.  Philly is a potential juggernaut because their four guys give them everything.  Fultz scores and creates like Harden and he can play off the ball.  You can build an entire offense around him.  He's going to be dynamic working off Embiid and Saric.  And they have Simmons too, who is probably the best point forward prospect in the league.  They're going to be excellent in the half court and unstoppable in transition.

 

With the absolute haul that they got from Brooklyn, there is no reason Boston couldn't have accomplished what Philly did, with the added bonus of not having suck to pull it off.  Instead they shot their wad early rather than commit to a true rebuild and the result is they've got a low upside construction that's not better than Cleveland or Golden State in the short term, nor is it going to be better than DC, Minnesota, Philly, or Milwaukee in the long term.

 

I don't see Kyrie as having the upside that you do.  I think he's been the same player for years and I think he's always going to be a horrible defender and facilitator.  Maybe he can grow as a leader, but I don't think he's got it in him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

McQueen is the most knowledgeable NBA fan here......and also a complete lunatic.

 

At any point in this endless Kyrie bashing, have you noticed that Thomas is 5'9, almost 30, injured, a worse defender than Kyrie, and on a one-year deal? I love him as a player, but in the end, I think Cleveland is getting one year out of him, and in the end Cleveland trade away a player who was absolutely worth the #1 pick for maybe the #1 pick.

 

I would also love to go back and read the NBA thread around the time of the Harden deal. Because I'm pretty certain I was arguing that it wasn't THAT bad, because I grossly underestimated just how good a scorer Harden was. I actually think Kyrie can be at that level. And - like Harden - I'm excited to see him in an offense that - if he embraces it - will do nothing but create huge scoring opportunities for him.

 

So much of why I think this is a good trade is based on how good I think Stevens is. He now has two incredibly talented, incredibly versatile offensive toys to play with.

 

 

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't see Kyrie as having the upside that you do.  I think he's been the same player for years and I think he's always going to be a horrible defender and facilitator.  Maybe he can grow as a leader, but I don't think he's got it in him.

 

Anyone see the irony in this Cowherd-esque hot take on an NBA guard?

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I would also love to go back and read the NBA thread around the time of the Harden deal. Because I'm pretty certain I was arguing that it wasn't THAT bad, because I grossly underestimated just how good a scorer Harden was. I actually think Kyrie can be at that level. And - like Harden - I'm excited to see him in an offense that - if he embraces it - will do nothing but create huge scoring opportunities for him.

 

Boston's offense is much different than Houston's.  Now I'm sure that Stevens will transform it significantly to better suit his new personnel, but Kyrie would have been poorly suited to do what Boston did last season because he's not a good off ball player.  I know, I used to think he could be a really good off ball player too because of his shooting, but for whatever reason he's just not.  Isaiah Thomas is a very good off-ball player and spent almost half his time off the ball last season.  And he was surrounded by shooters and ball movers, many of which are now gone.

 

I get having faith in Stevens, because he is a truly great Xs and Os coach.  But realistically, what is his offense going to look like next season?  It's going to look a lot like Cleveland's from last year.  He's going to have to abandon a lot of that ideal movement from the IT-led offense because there is just only so much of that you can do when your PG is a ballstopping isolation scorer.  I also think they lost too much shooting and defense from last year's team, which is going to gum things up and have people making excuses for their supporting cast being too ****ty when they don't look as good this season.

 

18 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Anyone see the irony in this Cowherd-esque hot take on an NBA guard?

 

Has he not already proven that he's a horrible defender, passer, and leader?

[Going Commando]

The other thing to consider about the Harden projection for Irving LKB is that Irving has never demonstrated the floor vision and playmaking skills that Harden showed in OKC.  Also Harden is a durable workhorse.  He's one of the biggest and strongest guards and he only misses two or three games a year despite playing a very rugged style.  Irving is slender and misses a ton of time.  Come on.  We all know he's never going to be able to do what Harden did last season.  I suspect that you guys are just playing devil's advocate because you want to believe in his upside and the upside of this Boston team so that it's easier to maintain the fantasy that the league is going to be more competitive than it really will be.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

14 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The other thing to consider about the Harden projection for Irving LKB is that Irving has never demonstrated the floor vision and playmaking skills that Harden showed in OKC.  Also Harden is a durable workhorse.  He's one of the biggest and strongest guards and he only misses two or three games a year despite playing a very rugged style.  Irving is slender and misses a ton of time.  Come on.  We all know he's never going to be able to do what Harden did last season.  I suspect that you guys are just playing devil's advocate because you want to believe in his upside and the upside of this Boston team so that it's easier to maintain the fantasy that the league is going to be more competitive than it really will be.

 

I don't think Boston has a chance in hell of beating GSW. I think they have a twenty percent chance of beating the Cavs this year. I thought they had a negative 50 percent chance of beating the Cavs last year. I think the Wizards are basically where they are for the next few years. Easily the third best team in the East that both Cleveland and Boston will want to avoid in the semis.

 

And I don't really think that an National team member really has "upside." I think Kyrie can improve some things, and I think for the first time in his life, he's going to be coached. (I'm not a huge fan of Coach K, but I do think it hurt Kyrie that he never really played at Duke and therefore never had anyone really work on his bad habits). He has certainly never been coached in Cleveland. He was given the ball when he first got there and was told "Go do your thing" and then he was told "Do what Lebron tells you to do."

 

I know this: I would want no piece of Isiah Thomas long term, and I would sign Kyrie to a max deal this afternoon if I had to do it.

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

McQueen is the most knowledgeable NBA fan here

idk bro.

 

I am not even hating, but I think a few of us know our stuff.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

That's severely couching the comparison.  Both of those guys are way better players than him.  Kyrie Irving led teams don't even sniff the playoffs.

 

It was a bad trade that capped off a poorly executed rebuild.  If Ainge was planning to move on from IT all along, he should have drafted Fultz and then used the 2018 pick to get the other foundation piece in the draft.  He could have rebuilt around two young stars with a team with enough support to win immediately and avoid the endless tank churn that stunts the growth of young stars.  He wasted this opportunity to build a shallow team around three low upside stars, none of whom are even top 15 players.

Pretty much.

 

By now you've probably seen the stats about how the Cavaliers performed when Irving was on the floor without James over the past three seasons. While Irving's base stats are excellent -- in 2,000 minutes without James, Irving averaged 30.6 points and 6.3 assists per 36 minutes, a line that colleague Tom Haberstroh noted was almost identical to numbers put up by Isaiah Thomas last season -- the Cavaliers were just 4-13 in games that James sat out during that span, and the team's performance was particularly cringeworthy.

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I remember Wiggins's freshman season well.  I also remember all of the hype he had in High School.  And I remember all of the hype that Shabazz Muhammad, Andre Drummond, and Harrison Barnes had in High School as well.  During their freshman years it became clear that they weren't those guys and that was true of Wiggins too.

im sorry, but no.

 

For one, none of those guys went #1 in the damn draft like Wiggins did. (and I know Embiid injury, but he was a top 2 pick)

 

So if he didn't perform that well, then I am sure NBA teams would have slotted him accordingly in the draft like those players you mentioned.

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Fultz is the real deal.  He wasn't the #1/#1 because he came into the season as the consensus top guy and had a ton of hype like Wiggins, he got picked there because of his play.

I didn't say a single bad thing about Fultz but he did not have the hype Wiggins had. Just not a true statement.

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Embiid is the foundation for a dominant defense and inside scoring game, and I agree that he's probably going to be the best player in the NBA at some point if he can stay on the floor.  But all of that's true of Anthony Davis too. 

Embiid is 7'2".

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

With the absolute haul that they got from Brooklyn, there is no reason Boston couldn't have accomplished what Philly did, with the added bonus of not having suck to pull it off.

they just did this, and they have Kyrie Irving and even more picks.

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't see Kyrie as having the upside that you do.

you don't see it because you don't like him as a player.

 

That is on you, and not him.

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

But realistically, what is his offense going to look like next season?  It's going to look a lot like Cleveland's from last year.

I have no idea how you can make this statement while also saying Brad Stevens is a great coach, lol.

[Warhead36]

I don't know if you can build a championship team around Irving. He was the perfect #2 player but of course didn't like that role.

 

I think he's a better Stephon Marbury.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't know if you can build a championship team around Irving. He was the perfect #2 player but of course didn't like that role.

 

I think he's a better Stephon Marbury.

Perfect comparison.

 

I'm not going to knock Kyrie completely because I think he's great at what he's great at: scoring.

 

It's just that (so far) he has brought little else to the table.

 

Maybe that will change this season. Maybe not.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by BRAVEONAWARPATH

[Bozo the kKklown]

The Stephon Marbury disses, imma let slide. Thats another thread and convo, but his career was unfairly maligned. (also not a similar player to Kyrie at all)

 

 

You all say Kyrie can only score. Its true, but he is just 25. Remember that, you act like players don't improve at that age.

 

More than that though, Kyrie is not just a scorer but he is one of hte best scorers in the NBA. An ELITE scorer. He is great in the playoffs because he is great 1v1 and a beast in the halfcourt. Its a big reason why I understand people rating him over Wall, even if I disagree. Players that can score at an elite level when the game is slowed down are invaluable.

Edited September 8, 2017 by BenningRoadSkin

[Going Commando]

Houston:

 

1 - Trade James Harden for LeBron and the Brooklyn pick,

2 - Trade the Brooklyn pick and Ryan Anderson for Andre Drummond

3 - Trade whatever for Melo.  A ham sandwich.

4 - Sign Wade

 

Championship.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

 

More than that though, Kyrie is not just a scorer but he is one of hte best scorers in the NBA. An ELITE scorer. He is great in the playoffs because he is great 1v1 and a beast in the halfcourt. Its a big reason why I understand people rating him over Wall, even if I disagree. Players that can score at an elite level when the game is slowed down are invaluable.

 

This is the key to everything. Kyrie can get any shot he wants any time he wants it.

 

Now unless you are Golden State and running some 22nd Century offense with aliens at all the key spots, in the playoffs, it's damn near impossible to scheme guys open. This is why Boston was a hopeless playoff team and Washington had a shot against them. Top to bottom, scheme versus scheme, Boston was better than Washington in every way. But Washington has two guys who can get buckets in the playoffs.

 

Kyrie is better than both of them at that.

 

(By the way, this is why I would STILL be interested in Melo if I was running a team).

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Houston:

 

1 - Trade James Harden for LeBron and the Brooklyn pick,

2 - Trade the Brooklyn pick and Ryan Anderson for Andre Drummond

3 - Trade whatever for Melo.  A ham sandwich.

4 - Sign Wade

 

Championship.

 

 

I would pay damn good money to watch a team with IT, Harden, and Love play basketball.

 

They would scored 150 points a game and win 25 games.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

The Stephon Marbury disses, imma let slide. Thats another thread and convo, but his career was unfairly maligned. (also not a similar player to Kyrie at all)

 

 

You all say Kyrie can only score. Its true, but he is just 25. Remember that, you act like players don't improve at that age.

 

More than that though, Kyrie is not just a scorer but he is one of hte best scorers in the NBA. An ELITE scorer. He is great in the playoffs because he is great 1v1 and a beast in the halfcourt. Its a big reason why I understand people rating him over Wall, even if I disagree. Players that can score at an elite level when the game is slowed down are invaluable.

No disagreement about his offensive ability.

 

I guess ultimately it comes down to how much you value his offensive skills as compared to his lack of consistent playmaking, horrible defense etc.

 

I mean scoring is great but if you're giving it up on the other end....

[Mr. Sinister]

29 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

idk bro.

 

I am not even hating, but I think a few of us know our stuff.

 

I think KB said it perfectly. McQueen is knowledgeable, but when his feelings get in the way, he becomes an old man yelling on the porch about how he singlehandedly cleared a gun nest full of Vietcong...

Edited September 8, 2017 by Mr. Sinister

[Going Commando]

32 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

idk bro.

 

I am not even hating, but I think a few of us know our stuff.

 

Here is the secret to getting LKB to believe you possess the esoteric knowledge of the NBA: drop a comparison to Alex English or World B Free.

[Bozo the kKklown]

14 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

No disagreement about his offensive ability.

 

I guess ultimately it comes down to how much you value his offensive skills as compared to his lack of consistent playmaking, horrible defense etc.

 

I mean scoring is great but if you're giving it up on the other end....

But we just saw the Cavs run through the Eastern conference while having a piss poor defense.

14 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

I think KB said it perfectly. McQueen is knowledgeable, but when his feelings get in the way, he becomes an old man yelling on the porch about how he singlehandedly cleared a gun nest full of Vietcong...

LOL. I feel you, I just think a lot of us know our stuff too. Thats all.

[Gamebreaker]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

But we just saw the Cavs run through the Eastern conference while having a piss poor defense.

 

Are the Celtics going to have Lebron too? Since they won't, it matters. 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

But we just saw the Cavs run through the Eastern conference while having a piss poor defense.

 

True....but we saw a Lebron James-led Cavaliers run through the Eastern Conference.

 

Let's see if Kyrie can do the same (and he might).

[Bozo the kKklown]

4 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

Are the Celtics going to have Lebron too? Since they won't, it matters. 

 

Just now, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

True....but we saw a Lebron James-led Cavaliers run through the Eastern Conference.

 

Let's see if Kyrie can do the same (and he might).

We will see.

 

And again, I am not saying Kyrie will do it. I just don't like writing this off or saying Boston got juxed. They did not.

[Going Commando]

LeBron is going to win the conference again this year.  Boston can't beat them and the Wizards definitely can't.  We're headed for round 4.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

40 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

LeBron is going to win the conference again this year.  Boston can't beat them and the Wizards definitely can't.  We're headed for round 4.

 

Well, yea......

 

I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[ixcuincle]

 

[StillUnknown]