Hitman21ST Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 You are going put Rob Gronkowski in the Pantheon of greatest TE in history (or since 2000) despite the fact essentially he is catching balls from one of the best QBs ever to live and given the huuuuuge number of surgeries and procedures Gronk has been through over the past 2years may not be playing in the league in 12 months and at the end of it he might have that one eye popping season in 2011 and that be it .. And then you have those other TEs you have thrown in the Trash - just go up the I95 and you will get the answer to the question who was the best TE in the early 2000s and I am betting mr Heaps name will come up more than once ... and Dallas Clark in Indy i am sure you will get a bunch of people comparing Clark to the top TEs of the age .. The point is - some one is over rated is someone who generates a lot of talk but achieves very very little - I cannot see how you can call the best receiving TE the Redskins have had in their franchise history who consistently put up numbers early in his career to be one of the top 5 TEs in the the league, who is amongst the top 5 productive pass catchers in the franchise history - over rated .. The final 4 years took the sheen off - but lets look at those last 4 years . 2012 brought back when Davis went down with a ACL, in 2011 was that year too far but in 2010 he had a career year in terms of yards but was no where near the player he was and that was coming off a serious injury ... and I always ask this - in 2010 Davis coming off the a great showing in 2009 slips back into the shadow of Cooley - what happened then - i mean CC is supposed to be this terrible person with a horrible work ethic and yet somehow he spoils Freds coming out party ? It still doesn't add up .. Whoa, slow your role for a second. Todd Heap is to the Ravens what Cooley is to us. A good player who flashed greatness from time to time, but he never reached elite TE status, and Dallas Clark is really an average TE. He doesn't come close to Cooley in terms of catches or yards. He was a monster in the red zone, as shown by his 50 TDs, but other than that he hasn't been anything outrageous. He has one 1000 yard season and only 3 where he surpassed 500 yards. He falls in right around Heap and Cooley. The point is you have to look at the whole career and weigh that against the hype he received/receives. You can't take a look at his whole career and say "he was a top-tier Tight End." You can do that with Witten et al. You can say "he had an elite few years, then his career was shot down by injury" which is absolutely correct. But you're basing your argument and judging him on his first five years and more or less ignoring the rest, which is overrating him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 But you've got to look at the bigger picture and ALL facets when looking at Jason and Chris over the duration. And factor them all in, there's really not that much difference between the two however you try cut it for me. Hail. That right there is over-rating him. Witten has averaged 5 catches per game over his career, Cooley 3.6 Witten has 56.3 yards per game, Cooley 40.3 Witten has .27 TDs per game, Cooley .28 By any measure, Witten has been the better player over the course of his career. And it's not really close. If Cooley were really as good as Witten, or they were essentially the same player, there would have been no need to draft his successor, and Shanny wouldn't have released him this past year. If you list the Pantheon of modern Tight Ends (from 2000 to present), Cooley is far down that list. Gonzo Gates Witten V. Davis Gronk Graham Then Cooley gets thrown in with the likes of Dallas Clark, Ben Watson, Kellen Winslow Jr, Todd Heap, etc. Putting him up with the likes of Witten over the course of his career is how he gets overrated. He had 5 very good years. Over his career though he was average. You are going put Rob Gronkowski in the Pantheon of greatest TE in history (or since 2000) despite the fact essentially he is catching balls from one of the best QBs ever to live and given the huuuuuge number of surgeries and procedures Gronk has been through over the past 2years may not be playing in the league in 12 months and at the end of it he might have that one eye popping season in 2011 and that be it .. If you have the record for most receiving TDs in a season as a TE after two years of football and probably had the GREATEST season a TE has ever had in this league... you can start talking about stuff like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well, that's their problem for having a complex offense that is hard to learn for their crack-head WRs. Campbell didn't help Cooley at all, but Witten ran better routes, had better hands, was bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, and did better than Cooley at what Cooley did best in his prime... YAC. Man, do a lot of Cowboys fans disagree with you lol...Again, from what I've have read over the seasons on CZ they have said that Cooley's hands and route running are close to (if not on par with) Witten's, and they regularly make fun of Witten's YAC attempts (or rather, how he runs lol). Found this one as well on CZ... No one should be questioning Cooley's ability. He's an outstanding player. He is not, however as good of an all around TE as Witten. IMO, the only advantage Cooley has over Witten is his ability to make tacklers miss on occassion...another aspect of Witten's game that seems to be improving I might add. Receiving - slight advantage Witten Blocking - adv. Witten Route running - push big play ability - push RAC - Cooley Witten was never all that good at making tacklers miss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 But seriously... it's conversations like this that divide the fan base on the issue. If you over rate Cooley your mind isn't going to be changed... and if you say Cooley was just a really good player, you're a hater... but you're also correct No need for anymore Burgundy on Burgundy crime, fellas. You are right, of course. Sometimes I just can't help myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 So VINNY CERRATO'S drafting decisions are being used to support the claim that Cooley is "the most overrated Redskin of all time"? lol....Holy crap. I'd be curious to see, back when Davis was drafted, if you responded to it by saying "I'm not surprised...we need to find Cooley's successor," or if you were like 99% of the rest of the board and said "WTF? We have Cooley!! We don't need another TE!" lol ... Come on Cali, you're better than that. Never did I say he's the most overrated Redskin of all time. If you're using that I listed him first, that was just because he was the first name I thought of, not that he's the most overrated Skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well, that's their problem for having a complex offense that is hard to learn for their crack-head WRs. Campbell didn't help Cooley at all, but Witten ran better routes, had better hands, was bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, and did better than Cooley at what Cooley did best in his prime... YAC. Man, do a lot of Cowboys fans disagree with you lol...Again, from what I've have read over the seasons on CZ they have said that Cooley's hands and route running are close to (if not on par with) Witten's, and they regularly make fun of Witten's YAC attempts (or rather, how he runs lol). Found this one as well on CZ... >No one should be questioning Cooley's ability. He's an outstanding player. He is not, however as good of an all around TE as Witten. IMO, the only advantage Cooley has over Witten is his ability to make tacklers miss on occassion...another aspect of Witten's game that seems to be improving I might add. Receiving - slight advantage Witten Blocking - adv. Witten Route running - push big play ability - push RAC - Cooley Witten was never all that good at making tacklers miss... Wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with a Cowboys fan, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 But you've got to look at the bigger picture and ALL facets when looking at Jason and Chris over the duration. And factor them all in, there's really not that much difference between the two however you try cut it for me. Hail. That right there is over-rating him. Witten has averaged 5 catches per game over his career, Cooley 3.6 Witten has 56.3 yards per game, Cooley 40.3 Witten has .27 TDs per game, Cooley .28 By any measure, Witten has been the better player over the course of his career. And it's not really close. If Cooley were really as good as Witten, or they were essentially the same player, there would have been no need to draft his successor, and Shanny wouldn't have released him this past year. If you list the Pantheon of modern Tight Ends (from 2000 to present), Cooley is far down that list. Gonzo Gates Witten V. Davis Gronk Graham Then Cooley gets thrown in with the likes of Dallas Clark, Ben Watson, Kellen Winslow Jr, Todd Heap, etc. Putting him up with the likes of Witten over the course of his career is how he gets overrated. He had 5 very good years. Over his career though he was average. You are going put Rob Gronkowski in the Pantheon of greatest TE in history (or since 2000) despite the fact essentially he is catching balls from one of the best QBs ever to live and given the huuuuuge number of surgeries and procedures Gronk has been through over the past 2years may not be playing in the league in 12 months and at the end of it he might have that one eye popping season in 2011 and that be it .. If you have the record for most receiving TDs in a season as a TE after two years of football and probably had the GREATEST season a TE has ever had in this league... you can start talking about stuff like that So you're saying one-year wonders can be elevated to the Panthenon of Greatest TEs? What happened to longevity? Shouldn't we at least wait until we can see if he's able to maintain a high standard of play over 5+ seasons before he's given that status? (because as we all know, 5 seasons isn't enough lol )... So VINNY CERRATO'S drafting decisions are being used to support the claim that Cooley is "the most overrated Redskin of all time"? lol....Holy crap. I'd be curious to see, back when Davis was drafted, if you responded to it by saying "I'm not surprised...we need to find Cooley's successor," or if you were like 99% of the rest of the board and said "WTF? We have Cooley!! We don't need another TE!" lol ... Come on Cali, you're better than that. Never did I say he's the most overrated Redskin of all time. If you're using that I listed him first, that was just because he was the first name I thought of, not that he's the most overrated Skin. Ah, look at the thread title, amigo lol ... And it's YOUR THREAD lol!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Come on Cali, you're better than that. Never did I say he's the most overrated Redskin of all time. If you're using that I listed him first, that was just because he was the first name I thought of, not that he's the most overrated Skin. In my time actually watching and remembering football... the most overated Redskins have been Timmy Smith and Lavar Arrington. I'll yield to the village elders on what happened BDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 So VINNY CERRATO'S drafting decisions are being used to support the claim that Cooley is "the most overrated Redskin of all time"? lol....Holy crap. I'd be curious to see, back when Davis was drafted, if you responded to it by saying "I'm not surprised...we need to find Cooley's successor," or if you were like 99% of the rest of the board and said "WTF? We have Cooley!! We don't need another TE!" lol ... Come on Cali, you're better than that. Never did I say he's the most overrated Redskin of all time. If you're using that I listed him first, that was just because he was the first name I thought of, not that he's the most overrated Skin. You've got to admit, when you make a post in a thread called "Most overrated/underrated Redskins of all time" and list him as the first name, it's kind of hard not to read it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 But you've got to look at the bigger picture and ALL facets when looking at Jason and Chris over the duration. And factor them all in, there's really not that much difference between the two however you try cut it for me. Hail. That right there is over-rating him. Witten has averaged 5 catches per game over his career, Cooley 3.6 Witten has 56.3 yards per game, Cooley 40.3 Witten has .27 TDs per game, Cooley .28 By any measure, Witten has been the better player over the course of his career. And it's not really close. If Cooley were really as good as Witten, or they were essentially the same player, there would have been no need to draft his successor, and Shanny wouldn't have released him this past year. If you list the Pantheon of modern Tight Ends (from 2000 to present), Cooley is far down that list. Gonzo Gates Witten V. Davis Gronk Graham Then Cooley gets thrown in with the likes of Dallas Clark, Ben Watson, Kellen Winslow Jr, Todd Heap, etc. Putting him up with the likes of Witten over the course of his career is how he gets overrated. He had 5 very good years. Over his career though he was average. You are going put Rob Gronkowski in the Pantheon of greatest TE in history (or since 2000) despite the fact essentially he is catching balls from one of the best QBs ever to live and given the huuuuuge number of surgeries and procedures Gronk has been through over the past 2years may not be playing in the league in 12 months and at the end of it he might have that one eye popping season in 2011 and that be it .. If you have the record for most receiving TDs in a season as a TE after two years of football and probably had the GREATEST season a TE has ever had in this league... you can start talking about stuff like that So you're saying one-year wonders can be elevated to the Panthenon of Greatest TEs? What happened to longevity? Shouldn't we at least wait until we can see if he's able to maintain a high standard of play over 5+ seasons before he's given that status? (because as we all know, 5 seasons isn't enough lol )... Well... if Cooley ever put up 17tds and 1500 plus receiving yards in a year I'd have a tramp-stamp of him on my lower back. But he didn't. Didn't even come close. And I said start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well, that's their problem for having a complex offense that is hard to learn for their crack-head WRs. Campbell didn't help Cooley at all, but Witten ran better routes, had better hands, was bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, and did better than Cooley at what Cooley did best in his prime... YAC. Man, do a lot of Cowboys fans disagree with you lol...Again, from what I've have read over the seasons on CZ they have said that Cooley's hands and route running are close to (if not on par with) Witten's, and they regularly make fun of Witten's YAC attempts (or rather, how he runs lol). Found this one as well on CZ... >No one should be questioning Cooley's ability. He's an outstanding player. He is not, however as good of an all around TE as Witten. IMO, the only advantage Cooley has over Witten is his ability to make tacklers miss on occassion...another aspect of Witten's game that seems to be improving I might add. Receiving - slight advantage Witten Blocking - adv. Witten Route running - push big play ability - push RAC -Cooley Witten was never all that good at making tacklers miss... Wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with a Cowboys fan, lol Hopefully it was the first time you disagreed with a Cowboys fan who was praising a Redskins player, though lol... So VINNY CERRATO'S drafting decisions are being used to support the claim that Cooley is "the most overrated Redskin of all time"? lol....Holy crap. I'd be curious to see, back when Davis was drafted, if you responded to it by saying "I'm not surprised...we need to find Cooley's successor," or if you were like 99% of the rest of the board and said "WTF? We have Cooley!! We don't need another TE!" lol ... Come on Cali, you're better than that. Never did I say he's the most overrated Redskin of all time. If you're using that I listed him first, that was just because he was the first name I thought of, not that he's the most overrated Skin. You've got to admit, when you make a post in a thread called "Most overrated/underrated Redskins of all time" and list him as the first name, it's kind of hard not to read it that way. Thank you lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Ah, look at the thread title, amigo lol ... And it's YOUR THREAD lol!! He is among the most overrated. He is not the most overrated. That honor goes to Timmy Smith and LaVar Arrington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well... if Cooley ever put up 17tds and 1500 plus receiving yards in a year I'd have a tramp-stamp of him on my lower back. But he didn't. Didn't even come close. And I said start... Start?...You already reached your destination by listing him among the Pantheon lol...He wasn't under the "Honorable Mentions" section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Thank you lol I did make a mistake, though. It wasn't just a thread. It was his own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well... if Cooley ever put up 17tds and 1500 plus receiving yards in a year I'd have a tramp-stamp of him on my lower back. But he didn't. Didn't even come close. And I said start... Start?...You already reached your destination by listing him among the Pantheon lol...He wasn't under the "Honorable Mentions" section. I never listed anyone except for Winslow, Sr. and Tony Gonzo? But I'll defend anyone who wants to talk about Gronkowski as possibly being one of the best TEs in NFL history by the time he hangs it up. Cali, he didn't have a good year, he didn't have a great year, he had THE GREATEST YEAR IN THE HISTORY OF THIS LEAGUE at tight end, man. 17 TDs? He was probably the biggest offensive weapon in the NFL last season AND he was hurt. It's not uncommon for fans and mediots to start saying "Hey, check this kid out he might be for real" after a season like that. Do you mention him in the same breath as the greats at TE in terms of career? Absolutely not, but he gets a mention because of his all-time NFL records he set last season for TEs. So basically, he has a chair at the table but he doesn't have a plate to eat off of yet. He can just sit their and listen Does that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Start?...You already reached your destination by listing him among the Pantheon lol...He wasn't under the "Honorable Mentions" section. Would you have put Megatron in the Pantheon of receivers after his second year? I did make a mistake, though. It wasn't just a thread. It was his own thread. Again, he is among the most overrated, he is not the most overrated Redskin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Well... if Cooley ever put up 17tds and 1500 plus receiving yards in a year I'd have a tramp-stamp of him on my lower back. But he didn't. Didn't even come close. And I said start... Start?...You already reached your destination by listing him among the Pantheon lol...He wasn't under the "Honorable Mentions" section. I never listed anyone except for Winslow, Sr. and Tony Gonzo? Sorry, got you mixed upu with Hitman lol... But I'll defend anyone who wants to talk about Gronkowski as possibly being one of the best TEs in NFL history by the time he hangs it up. By the time he hangs it up? Sure. Of course it's just as likely that he won't be one of the best TEs in NFL histry by the time he hangs it up considering his injury concerns could mean he'll be hanging it up within the next few years at the rate he's going. Cali, he didn't have a good year, he didn't have a great year, he had THE GREATEST YEAR IN THE HISTORY OF THIS LEAGUE at tight end, man. 17 TDs? He was probably the biggest offensive weapon in the NFL last season AND he was hurt. Last season? Hell, no...on both counts. Again...we should wait until he has enough seasons under his belt before adding him to the Pantheon of Great TEs. It's not uncommon for fans and mediots to start saying "Hey, check this kid out he might be for real" after a season like that. Do you mention him in the same breath as the greats at TE in terms of career? Absolutely not, but he gets a mention because of his all-time NFL records he set last season for TEs. So basically, he has a chair at the table but he doesn't have a plate to eat off of yet. He can just sit their and listen Does that work? LOL...good analogy. *thumbsup* Start?...You already reached your destination by listing him among the Pantheon lol...He wasn't under the "Honorable Mentions" section. Would you have put Megatron in the Pantheon of receivers after his second year? Nope. Why would I? Why would anyone (who's not a Lions fan, that is lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 By the way, who does everyone think NFL.com will name as the Redskins most underrated/overrated players of all time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTskins Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Granted, I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but it sounds like Cooley is judged as being overrated because, as a mid round draft pick, he is not a candidate for a bronze bust in Canton. Kinda steep expectations, no? I think there is a good way to judge over/underrated: What is a player's performance level as compared to the value of their non-rookie contract in context of era? It is an inverse relationship. Out perform their deal = underrated. Under performing = overrated. I judge players on their rookie deals based on performance vs. expectations of draft position. Examples: 1) McNabb gets an incomplete. The Redskins assumed his Eagles contract and his extension was smoke and mirrors. 2) Until Cooley got the injury bug later in his career, in my view he oscillated between underrated to perfectly valued. 3) Monte Coleman = Severely underrated. 3) Andre Johnson was grossly overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share Posted June 20, 2013 Granted, I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but it sounds like Cooley is judged as being overrated because, as a mid round draft pick, he is not a candidate for a bronze bust in Canton. Kinda steep expectations, no? Not at all. We're viewing over/underrated based a lot on how the fans perceive him. And for the most part (IMO), fans tend to overrate him, placing him with the likes of Witten, Gonzo, and Gates over the course of their career; when although he was definitely a good TE (one of the best for a few years), over the course of his career he does not match up to those guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTskins Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Granted, I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but it sounds like Cooley is judged as being overrated because, as a mid round draft pick, he is not a candidate for a bronze bust in Canton. Kinda steep expectations, no? Not at all. We're viewing over/underrated based a lot on how the fans perceive him. And for the most part (IMO), fans tend to overrate him, placing him with the likes of Witten, Gonzo, and Gates over the course of their career; when although he was definitely a good TE (one of the best for a few years), over the course of his career he does not match up to those guys. Ahh, Got it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRagone Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I'm confused. Is this talking about from an outside perspective or from an inside perspective? IE how other fans/the media percieved players or how Redskins fans do? For example, I'd say LaVar is an example of an "over rated" player in terms of other Fans/media perception but I'd say at this point he's "under rated" in terms of Fan perspective of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlamVR Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 So VINNY CERRATO'S drafting decisions are being used to support the claim that Cooley is "the most overrated Redskin of all time"? lol....Holy crap. I'd be curious to see, back when Davis was drafted, if you responded to it by saying "I'm not surprised...we need to find Cooley's successor," or if you were like 99% of the rest of the board and said "WTF? We have Cooley!! We don't need another TE!" lol ... Come on Cali, you're better than that. Never did I say he's the most overrated Redskin of all time. If you're using that I listed him first, that was just because he was the first name I thought of, not that he's the most overrated Skin. You've got to admit, when you make a post in a thread called "Most overrated/underrated Redskins of all time" and list him as the first name, it's kind of hard not to read it that way. Thats what I was going to say.. kind of hard to read it any other way ... Still thinking about over rated players who was the free agent safety who came into town telling us there is a new sheriff in town (around 1998)... i want to say Shawn Richards but i think that is very wrong ...stanley richards ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I'm gonna take a stab at most overrated/underrated... Overrated: Colt Brennan Marty Schottenheimer Chip Lohmiller Underrated: Reed Doughty Neal Olkewicz Henry Ellard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadams5214 Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Good mentions by many regarding overrated and underrated players. Won't go into the obvious such as Arrington but had a couple names that I hadn't seen on many lists. For underrated I would put Monte Coleman and Gary Clark on that list. Monte played 16 seasons with the Skins and while he was never an All Pro or elite LB he was incredibly valuable to the Skins. He brought the element of pass rushing from the end which even when he didn't get the sack it opened up lanes for his teammates. He was extremely athletic, durable and embodied what a true Redskin was. Gary Clark is well known and had a great career with Washington but again feel his impact is understated. His ability to get deep opened things up underneath for Monk and the Skins short passing game. Plus Gary brought the type of aggressive attitude that the Skins needed. He was confident and downright boastful at times but most always backed it up with his play. Gary was somewhat overshadowed by Art Monk and even Ricky Sanders for his couple great seasons but he is also an historically great Redskin. He was a dominant receiver for a good 5-6 year stretch. Wish he would make the HOF but it's doubtful given the better stats achieved by many receivers in the last 2 decades. Surprised to see some valuing Shawn Springs as underrated because to me while he may not be overrated, his time in Washington was certainly a disappointment. He was signed as a big money free agent which was a great story given he grew up in MD and seemed genuinely thrilled by coming home to play for the Skins. His first season was great and it seemed Springs was headed toward creating a solid legacy with the Skins but that quickly changed. He was often injured during the rest of his tenure in Washington and never really replicated that first season of great play save for a stretch in 2007 where he helped lead the Skins back to the playoffs. Some forget that Shawn Springs definitely ruffled feathers in DC over the years with his diva type attitude and often refusal to play through injuries. It was often a weekly question whether Springs would play in the game and far too often he would sit on the sidelines. He definitely developed the reputation of being a great player but one that would only play when he felt close to fully healthy. Seemed as if he often put himself above the team regarding playing with nagging injuries. Even in several big games when the the team was counting on him Springs would often not be up to the task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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