Most overrated/underrated Redskins of all time

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I would like it put on record (and to the misguidedly ill-informed who STILL think I don't like the guy) that I have in no way influenced or paid anyone in this thread to say anything negative about Brian Orakpo. 

 

Continue on .....

 

Hail. 

[Hitman21ST]

I would like it put on record (and to the misguidedly ill-informed who STILL think I don't like the guy) that I have in no way influenced or paid anyone in this thread to say anything negative about Brian Orakpo. 

 

Continue on .....

 

Hail. 

 

Oh yeah, on that note, my bank is having trouble with that check you sent me - something about needing it to be in dollars and cents vice quid and pence. I don't know the exchange rate so you need to convert it.

[DC9]

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

 

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

 

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

 

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

 

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

 

I will give an example:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

 

Highest rated passers in NFL history:

 

1.  Aaron Rodgers - 104.9

2.  Steve Young - 96.8

3.  Tom Brady - 96.6

4.  Peyton Manning - 95.7

5.  Tony Romo sits to pee - 95.6   

 

I'm not going to look for things to **** about in terms of Cooley.  He appears to have had good stats in his "first five years" in relation to those other players.  But he's never mentioned in the same breath as any of those guys by anyone outside of this fan base for a reason. 

 

This isn't me hating on Cooley either, I actually liked him as a player and think he's a real dude's dude... but let's not act like most of those catches he made weren't from Campbell checking down to him in that soft spot in the zone.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I would like it put on record (and to the misguidedly ill-informed who STILL think I don't like the guy) that I have in no way influenced or paid anyone in this thread to say anything negative about Brian Orakpo. 

 

Continue on .....

 

Hail. 

 

Oh yeah, on that note, my bank is having trouble with that check you sent me - something about needing it to be in dollars and cents vice quid and pence. I don't know the exchange rate so you need to convert it.

 

BRO! Uhmmm, I mean Mr Hitman thingie. 

 

I know nothing of the above poster or what gobbledygook he speaks. Honest. 

 

In fact I'd check this strange name for a dupe account. Sounds like a devious infidel from down South to me. Check him for stars too! 

 

Hail. 

[Henry]

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

 

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

 

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

 

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

 

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

 

What, I didn't dispute your lists? No, that sounds about right. I'm not gonna look it up but I believe you.

 

You do have a good point. Cooley was very good for a short time. And during that time I was as high on Cooley as everyone else. I never said he sucked or anything. I think that's the danger of threads like this. Some people automatically equate 'overrated' with 'bad.' I don't consider them the same thing. Cooley could be a good player and still be overrated.

 

And in my opinion, the man-love for Cooley went way beyond his value to the team. Even when he was at the peak of his game. I've honestly always wondered why. He married a hot wife, said disparaging things about the Cowboys ... seemed like one of the guys ... I don't know. But unless we're talking about a rare guy like Sharpe or Gates who successfully becomes the focal point of a team's passing game I don't usually see such adulation heaped upon a TE, and as good as Cooley was ... he wasn't THAT good.

[DC9]

 

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

 

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

 

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

 

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

 

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

 

What, I didn't dispute your lists? No, that sounds about right. I'm gonna look it up but I believe you.

 

You do have a good point. Cooley was very good for a short time. And during that time I was as high on Cooley as everyone else. I never said he sucked or anything. I think that's the danger of threads like this. Some people automatically equate 'overrated' with 'bad.' I don't consider them the same thing. Cooley could be a good player and still be overrated.

 

And in my opinion, the man-love for Cooley went way beyond his value to the team. Even when he was at the peak of his game. I've honestly always wondered why. He married a hot wife, said disparaging things about the Cowboys ... seemed like one of the guys ... I don't know. But unless we're talking about a rare guy like Sharpe or Gates who successfully becomes the focal point of a team's passing game I don't usually see such adulation heaped upon a TE, and as good as Cooley was ... he wasn't THAT good.

 

I change everything I said above to this ^^^

 

Diplomatically done, Henry.  He doesn't suck and he was very good at his best.  I would probably be in here arguing for him if it wasn't for the guys in his camp getting hot and bothered at the mention of his name.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

I will give an example:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

Highest rated passers in NFL history:

1. Aaron Rodgers - 104.9

2. Steve Young - 96.8

3. Tom Brady - 96.6

4. Peyton Manning - 95.7

5. Tony Romo sits to pee - 95.6

I'm not going to look for things to **** about in terms of Cooley. He appears to have had good stats in his "first five years" in relation to those other players. But he's never mentioned in the same breath as any of those guys by anyone outside of this fan base for a reason.

This isn't me hating on Cooley either, I actually liked him as a player and think he's a real dude's dude... but let's not act like most of those catches he made weren't from Campbell checking down to him in that soft spot in the zone.

The only problem with your post is that I never claimed that Cooley's stats made him among the best TEs in the game...what I did say was that dismissing those stats as being little more than the result of an average TE getting a ton of "check downs" is foolish.

Now, if I'm wrong about how he accumulated his stats over that time, prove it. There are indeed stats out there that can do just that. Don't give me generic fan perceptions, give me facts. For example, Tony Gonzalez' yards per catch over his first 5 years is damn near identical to Cooley's...I'm guessing, though, that nobody here has ever claimed he got his stats from a bunch of check downs.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

What, I didn't dispute your lists? No, that sounds about right. I'm not gonna look it up but I believe you.

You do have a good point. Cooley was very good for a short time. And during that time I was as high on Cooley as everyone else. I never said he sucked or anything. I think that's the danger of threads like this. Some people automatically equate 'overrated' with 'bad.' I don't consider them the same thing. Cooley could be a good player and still be overrated.

And in my opinion, the man-love for Cooley went way beyond his value to the team. Even when he was at the peak of his game. I've honestly always wondered why. He married a hot wife, said disparaging things about the Cowboys ... seemed like one of the guys ... I don't know. But unless we're talking about a rare guy like Sharpe or Gates who successfully becomes the focal point of a team's passing game I don't usually see such adulation heaped upon a TE, and as good as Cooley was ... he wasn't THAT good.

Your post is a good example of several things I mentioned in my response to Hitman: relying on Fan Perception to back up your claims, and having a dismissive attitude towards Cooley's production as well as why fans held him in ad high regard as they did.

Since your argument is based less on production and stats and more on your personal perceptions of fan adulation, can you point out some posts by fans here who gave him undue praise?...I'm not saying that if you can't you're wrong, I just want to see what you consider to be praise given to Cooley that should only go to the likes of Winslow or Gonzales.

[DC9]

The only problem with your post is that I never claimed that Cooley's stats made him among the best TEs in the game...what I did say was that dismissing those stats as being little more than the result of an average TE getting a ton of "check downs" is foolish.

Now, if I'm wrong about how he accumulated his stats over that time, prove it. There are indeed stats out there that can do just that. Don't give me generic fan perceptions, give me facts. For example, Tony Gonzalez' yards per catch over his first 5 years is damn near identical to Cooley's...I'm guessing, though, that nobody here has ever claimed he got his stats from a bunch of check downs.

 

I'll start with the fact that I probably approach a Cooley conversation with annoyance, because he's not one of the better tight ends in the game and I think at his best he was very good.  That was a dark offensive time in this teams history and he offered excitement to our fanbase (myself included).  But I never bought in to him being elite, just very good.  So I tend to approach any opposition in a Cooley debate from the "I am one extreme and you are automatically the other" so for that I apologize and I probably went a bit far in terms of my approach to the conversation. 

 

I think Henry summed it up much better.  I never hated Cooley, I do however hate the deification of his role on the team in those first five years.  That's annoying and frankly it's embarrassing.  If we don't have a seat at the table for the best TE in the NFL when you are talking to fans of other teams, who cares? 

 

But I digress.  In responding to your post above, you never said that Cooley was up there with the guys listed, but the fact that a list is on your post and Cooley is on it... it's obviously implied.

 

You are not wrong on anything else.  Clearly he has good stats.  But he wasn't a dominate player.  He just wasn't.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Along with Portis, (as big a jack ass as he could be); Santana and Cooley almost single-handedly carried this franchise through much of the '00's. 

 

All three are modern Redskin greats. 

 

Why is this even up for discussion again?

 

Hail. 

[Henry]

 

 

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

What, I didn't dispute your lists? No, that sounds about right. I'm not gonna look it up but I believe you.

You do have a good point. Cooley was very good for a short time. And during that time I was as high on Cooley as everyone else. I never said he sucked or anything. I think that's the danger of threads like this. Some people automatically equate 'overrated' with 'bad.' I don't consider them the same thing. Cooley could be a good player and still be overrated.

And in my opinion, the man-love for Cooley went way beyond his value to the team. Even when he was at the peak of his game. I've honestly always wondered why. He married a hot wife, said disparaging things about the Cowboys ... seemed like one of the guys ... I don't know. But unless we're talking about a rare guy like Sharpe or Gates who successfully becomes the focal point of a team's passing game I don't usually see such adulation heaped upon a TE, and as good as Cooley was ... he wasn't THAT good.

Your post is a good example of several things I mentioned in my response to Hitman: relying on Fan Perception to back up your claims, and having a dismissive attitude towards Cooley's production as well as why fans held him in ad high regard as they did.

Since your argument is based less on production and stats and more on your personal perceptions of fan adulation, can you point out some posts by fans here who gave him undue praise?...I'm not saying that if you can't you're wrong, I just want to see what you consider to be praise given to Cooley that should only go to the likes of Winslow or Gonzales.

 

Of course we're talking about fan perception. That's how you get the 'rated' part of 'overrated.' I'm not sure what else you'd use ...

 

Unfortunately I can't point to any posts. The site upgrades have made searches darn near impossible. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Here's an example of what I mentioned earlier...moderator from Cowboyszone said this in 2007:

Originally Posted by Sarge

But he is is every bit as good catching the ball and after the ball. It's not like this isn't even close like some of you homers are claiming.

Witten 2005 - 757 yds and 6 TDs

Witten 2006 - 754 yds and 1 TD

Cooley 2005 -774 yds and 7 TDs

Cooley 2006 - 734 yds and 6 TDs

That's Witten 1511 yds and 7 TD's

and Cooley 1508 yds and 13 TD's

To even suggest this isn't debatable is ridiculous. Ya, I would most definitely take Witten over Cooley but there are a lotta non-Dallas fans who would'nt...

It's close is all I'm saying.

Followed up by other Cowboys fans...

True.

I think both sides can agree; we have elite TE's.

Gates, Gonzales (despite him aging), Winslow, Cooley, and Witten are elite TEs in the league. Any team would be lucky to have one.

Maybe it's because I see virtually every Skins game not airing at the same time as the Cowboys, but I think Cooley is definitely one of the best TEs in the NFC. Look at who's been throwing the ball to him over the years and his production. Right now, he's ranked 3rd in reception yards and 1st in TDs in the NFC among TEs.

I don't think any of that praise is undo, especially considering the time it was given. And I see no reason to diminish Cooley's career here as anything but as an extremely productive TE who started out the first 5 years of his career as one of the best TEs in the league, but whose career got seriously detailed after that by injuries and poor rehabilitation efforts.

[Henry]

Along with Portis, (as big a jack ass as he could be); Santana and Cooley almost single-handedly carried this franchise through much of the '00's. 

 

Carried the franchise to what?

 

You are correct, but the thing is, Santana and Cooley shouldn't have been asked to play such central roles. 

[skins island connection]

   _{Wow, just wow.}

 

 _{Conflicting double-split personalities sprinkled with a dash of bi-polarism.}

 

 _{My kinda party!}

[celticsalmon]

Uunderated - Mike Shanhan. The fire to win still burns inside of him.  And look at what he has done with a franchise that was in the depths when he arrived.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

What, I didn't dispute your lists? No, that sounds about right. I'm not gonna look it up but I believe you.

You do have a good point. Cooley was very good for a short time. And during that time I was as high on Cooley as everyone else. I never said he sucked or anything. I think that's the danger of threads like this. Some people automatically equate 'overrated' with 'bad.' I don't consider them the same thing. Cooley could be a good player and still be overrated.

And in my opinion, the man-love for Cooley went way beyond his value to the team. Even when he was at the peak of his game. I've honestly always wondered why. He married a hot wife, said disparaging things about the Cowboys ... seemed like one of the guys ... I don't know. But unless we're talking about a rare guy like Sharpe or Gates who successfully becomes the focal point of a team's passing game I don't usually see such adulation heaped upon a TE, and as good as Cooley was ... he wasn't THAT good.

Your post is a good example of several things I mentioned in my response to Hitman: relying on Fan Perception to back up your claims, and having a dismissive attitude towards Cooley's production as well as why fans held him in ad high regard as they did.

Since your argument is based less on production and stats and more on your personal perceptions of fan adulation, can you point out some posts by fans here who gave him undue praise?...I'm not saying that if you can't you're wrong, I just want to see what you consider to be praise given to Cooley that should only go to the likes of Winslow or Gonzales.

Of course we're talking about fan perception. That's how you get the 'rated' part of 'overrated.' I'm not sure what else you'd use ...

Unfortunately I can't point to any posts. The site upgrades have made searches darn near impossible.

True about the site upgrade lol...that aspect has been pissing me off to no end.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Along with Portis, (as big a jack ass as he could be); Santana and Cooley almost single-handedly carried this franchise through much of the '00's. 

 

Carried the franchise to what?

 

You are correct, but the thing is, Santana and Cooley shouldn't have been asked to play such central roles. 

 

But the fact that they were and did their own jobs to a high standard over the duration has to be the overriding thing right when talking about their place in Redskin lore surely right?

 

Guys can only do what they can do at the time period they happen to be around in. The fact we had little if anything else through that period outside of the consistent efforts and high calibre play of those three to leave the franchise ultimately fruitless in terms of a 4th silvery thing shouldn't weigh against their standing in our history. 

 

Hail. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

After reading this thread, I'm definitely going to say Cooley is among the most underrated lol...

 

....

 

During his 6th year, Cooley got injured (concussin and ankle, I think)...and thanks to having the personal training regimine of an unmotivated sloth, his recovery from his injuries just wasn't really there. But those first 5 seasons is what gained Cooley the aduration and appreciation of so many Skins fans. To see it swept under the rug with dismissive (and at times even disdainful) casualness just baffles me. I don't get it.

 

So Cooley was on pace and at the time considered great but never fully panned out or lived up to the great potential he showed early in part due to his awful work ethic and attitude yet  we still have fans even after this season, lamenting his loss of a spot on this team and acting like he can contribute.

 

This is in large part because of his likable larger than life personality he had while here which has romanticized his memory and why people are so hesitant to properly criticize him like other less likable players would be when their poor choices and work ethic derailed such a great career. 

 

That is why he is overrated. 

 

Edit: Stats aside, anyone that watched him would know he wasn't close to the player or force those other guys were on the list.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The only problem with your post is that I never claimed that Cooley's stats made him among the best TEs in the game...what I did say was that dismissing those stats as being little more than the result of an average TE getting a ton of "check downs" is foolish.

Now, if I'm wrong about how he accumulated his stats over that time, prove it. There are indeed stats out there that can do just that. Don't give me generic fan perceptions, give me facts. For example, Tony Gonzalez' yards per catch over his first 5 years is damn near identical to Cooley's...I'm guessing, though, that nobody here has ever claimed he got his stats from a bunch of check downs.

I'll start with the fact that I probably approach a Cooley conversation with annoyance, because he's not one of the better tight ends in the game and I think at his best he was very good. That was a dark offensive time in this teams history and he offered excitement to our fanbase (myself included). But I never bought in to him being elite, just very good. So I tend to approach any opposition in a Cooley debate from the "I am one extreme and you are automatically the other" so for that I apologize and I probably went a bit far in terms of my approach to the conversation.

I think Henry summed it up much better. I never hated Cooley, I do however hate the deification of his role on the team in those first five years. That's annoying and frankly it's embarrassing. If we don't have a seat at the table for the best TE in the NFL when you are talking to fans of other teams, who cares?

But I digress. In responding to your post above, you never said that Cooley was up there with the guys listed, but the fact that a list is on your post and Cooley is on it... it's obviously implied.

You are not wrong on anything else. Clearly he has good stats. But he wasn't a dominate player. He just wasn't.

I think it's just as embarrassing to describe Skins fans' praise of Cooley as "deification" instead of "appreciation".

[Henry]

 

Along with Portis, (as big a jack ass as he could be); Santana and Cooley almost single-handedly carried this franchise through much of the '00's. 

 

Carried the franchise to what?

 

You are correct, but the thing is, Santana and Cooley shouldn't have been asked to play such central roles. 

 

But the fact that they were and did their own jobs to a high standard over the duration has to be the overriding thing right when talking about their place in Redskin lore surely right?

 

Guys can only do what they can do at the time period they happen to be around in. The fact we had little if anything else through that period outside of the consistent efforts and high calibre play of those three to leave the franchise ultimately fruitless in terms of a 4th silvery thing shouldn't weigh against their standing in our history. 

 

Hail. 

 

Well, I have argued in this exhausting debate that Moss and Cooley were not as consistent as some fans claimed them to be. Hence, the 'overrated' label.

 

And, as I've also said, I am a big fan of both of them. I agree that Moss and Cooley were two of the very few bright spots in an otherwise dismal decade. But I think their brightness tends to be over-stated because everything else around them was so dim.

[Henry]

Anyway, I'm sick of arguing against Moss and Cooley. I've said my piece. Take it or leave it.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

After reading this thread, I'm definitely going to say Cooley is among the most underrated lol...

....

During his 6th year, Cooley got injured (concussin and ankle, I think)...and thanks to having the personal training regimine of an unmotivated sloth, his recovery from his injuries just wasn't really there. But those first 5 seasons is what gained Cooley the aduration and appreciation of so many Skins fans. To see it swept under the rug with dismissive (and at times even disdainful) casualness just baffles me. I don't get it.

So Cooley was on pace and at the time considered great but never fully panned out or lived up to the great potential he showed early in part due to his awful work ethic and attitude yet we still have fans even after this season, lamenting his loss of a spot on this team and acting like he can contribute.

This is in large part because of his likable larger than life personality he had while here which has romanticized his memory and why people are so hesitant to properly criticize him like other less likable players would be when their poor choices and work ethic derailed such a great career.

That is why he is overrated.

Very few fans still say he could still be productive, though...this site has, what, 70,000 members? You might find nine who think that way lol.

As for fans lamenting his loss...how in the world does that make Cooley overrated? We have had a TON of players whom fans have wished were still on the team after being let go. You STILL have some who will post that they wish Portis was on the team (at least until last season). That's normal...it's why we're fans, the emotional aspect.

[DC9]

I think it's just as embarrassing to describe Skins fans' praise of Cooley as "deification" instead of "appreciation".

 

You aren't embarrassed that we hold Chris Cooley in the same light that other franchises hold Hall of Fame players?

[DC9]

Very few fans still say he could still be productive, though...this site has, what, 70,000 members? You might find nine who think that way lol.

 

You are giving us way too much credit as a fanbase with that low ball number of nine.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

 

 

Along with Portis, (as big a jack ass as he could be); Santana and Cooley almost single-handedly carried this franchise through much of the '00's. 

 

Carried the franchise to what?

 

You are correct, but the thing is, Santana and Cooley shouldn't have been asked to play such central roles. 

 

But the fact that they were and did their own jobs to a high standard over the duration has to be the overriding thing right when talking about their place in Redskin lore surely right?

 

Guys can only do what they can do at the time period they happen to be around in. The fact we had little if anything else through that period outside of the consistent efforts and high calibre play of those three to leave the franchise ultimately fruitless in terms of a 4th silvery thing shouldn't weigh against their standing in our history. 

 

Hail. 

 

Well, I have argued in this exhausting debate that Moss and Cooley were not as consistent as some fans claimed them to be. Hence, the 'overrated' label.

 

And, as I've also said, I am a big fan of both of them. I agree that Moss and Cooley were two of the very few bright spots in an otherwise dismal decade. But I think their brightness tends to be over-stated because everything else around them was so dim.

 

Whilst that case can be made, I tend to think the converse is true that they overachieved. Particularly given the lack of top bracket talent around them. No less under center.  

 

Subjective on any player here, so there's no 'right or wrong.'

 

But IMHO, ALL things considered when it comes to ourselves and our team; Cooley, Moss and Portis should be right up there at the top table of recent Redskin greats for all they did/ continue to do for this franchise at the consistently high level (again, IMHO ALL things considered) they have performed at/ continue to perform at. 

 

Hail.