Most overrated/underrated Redskins of all time

[Darth Tater]

 

Overrated - Joe Theismann

 

Why do you say Theismann was overrated?

he was an average quarterback.  he gets extra fame points for the confluence of a lot of stuff that wasn't really his (onfield) doing:

1.  standing behind the GREATEST offensive line in the history of football.

2.  working under one of the greatest coaches of all time

3.  riggins, monk, green, charlie brown, and all the other extraordinary talent around him even aside from gibbs and the hogs

4.  the way he finished -- that gory leg break on monday night -- made people see him in a much more sympathetic light.

5. his flamboyant personality.  i hate it, but that always goes a long way towards building a legacy in the nfl, unfortunately.

 

theismann's golden years (82 and 83) were pretty much the same, numbers-wise, as ryp's 91 season, and yet theismann is thought of  as this wonderful redskins legend, and ryp was a just a journeyman lucky enough to stand behind behind the hogs and gibbs.  i think the disparity in perception is mostly due to their respective personalities, sadly.

1.  Standing behind one of the greatest lines in NFL history?  What are you smoking?  He stood behind a patchwork line that got it center off the NFL trash heap.  Yes, those guys got pretty good but Joe's best years were either before those guys got here or when those guys were not near what they'd be in 1991 (and not even the same).

2.  Theismann had some good years under Gibbs but he also did well under Pardee and with receivers that makes our core from 2004-20011 look elite.

3.  See above.

 

2. 

[s0crates]

Underrated:  Joe Jacoby, Gary Clark, Brian Mitchell, Stephen Davis, Jon Jansen, London Fletcher

 

Overrated: Heath Shuler, Michael Westbrook, Andre Johnson, Lavar Arrington, Laron Landy, Albert Haynesworth 

To be overrated a player has first of all to be 'rated". I think you will go a long way to find a Redskin fan who in anyway rates Heath Shuler or Andre Johnson (who were big draft busts) or has a good word in any way to say for Haynesworth.

 

Every one of those guys had monster contracts and high expectations, so they must have been rated as potential stars at some point, of course not so much in hindsight.

 

To me they fit the definition of overrated, but perhaps we are just quibbling over semantics.

[Hitman21ST]

Overrated, to me, does not mean underacheiver or failure to live up to draft position. By either of those measures Cooley is not overrated

However, if we are talking perception vs reality then I do think Cooley is a prime candidate. He was loved here like Antonio Gates and, as fine a player as he was, he was no Gates. Six TDS in his first four years or not.

 

That's exactly how I'm talking. Just going off production compared to draft position, he's not overrated.

 

But a lot of posters on here (myself included for a time) put him up with the likes of Witten and Gonzalez, which he by no measure has. That's why I called him overrated.

 

And Bedlam, as for Orakpo vs Kerrigan - Rak gets some of the same hype that Cooley did. He gets put up with the likes of Ware, Suggs, Miller, and the other premier pass rushers. While he has put up decent numbers, he hasn't yet reached that level, but we like to put him there. His best year was as a rookie, when he primarily rushed from the defensive end position. In other words, we over-rate him. Yet Kerrigan continues to fly under the radar as a good pass rusher and good linebacker overall.

[Henry]

Orakpo is a 4-3 DE trying to play 3-4 OLB. I think he was 'that good' his rookie year in the 4-3 and now he's merely the best pass rusher on the team. While he may be overrated in the sense that some people think he's still going to be as productive as he was playing his natural position, I do think he's a pretty darn good player still.

[leaf7]

glad to see arrington make everyones overrated list.

[DC9]

Overrated, to me, does not mean underacheiver or failure to live up to draft position. By either of those measures Cooley is not overrated

However, if we are talking perception vs reality then I do think Cooley is a prime candidate. He was loved here like Antonio Gates and, as fine a player as he was, he was no Gates. Six TDS in his first four years or not.

 

Gangster points for liking your own post

 

And overrated vs underacheiving is probably the best way to say it.  Along with Martin's terms of "you have to be rated".  So anyone who never played a down or someone like Shuler was just a bust.

[DC9]

Orakpo is a 4-3 DE trying to play 3-4 OLB. I think he was 'that good' his rookie year in the 4-3 and now he's merely the best pass rusher on the team. While he may be overrated in the sense that some people think he's still going to be as productive as he was playing his natural position, I do think he's a pretty darn good player still.

 

Was it just me deploying in and out of the country at random that year or I do I not correctly remember Orakpo playing Willie in the 4-3 and he often lined up next to Andre Carter?  He was also abused anytime he had to go into coverage.

[bedlamVR]

Overrated, to me, does not mean underacheiver or failure to live up to draft position. By either of those measures Cooley is not overrated

However, if we are talking perception vs reality then I do think Cooley is a prime candidate. He was loved here like Antonio Gates and, as fine a player as he was, he was no Gates. Six TDS in his first four years or not.

 

It is not even that - you hate on a player because he is not player X - Cooley was not Gates, sure but then Gates was a star on a star studded roster ...So it is totally okay completely disregard all a players achievements because other fans think he on a par with other top players of his generation - this is ass backwards thinking that made sure Art Monk was continually snubbed in the HOF voting .. because despite the production certain sports writers thought Monk was 'over hyped'  when compared to Irvin and Carter etc...

 

But Mike Sellers  in his entire career he had 50 rushing attempts for just over 158 yards about 3.2 yards per carry and 3 TD - in his entire career - And yet he is under rated ? Seriously

 

SO a player being under rated or over rated is based soley on perception and if a player gets too many stories written about him because he is bringing it on the field - he instantly becomes over rated ?

[s0crates]

My opinion, its too soon to say on Orakpo.  We will agree he is a good pass rusher, but he does have his weaknesses.

 

He may not be worthy of his superstar status at this point, as he is adapting to a knew scheme and new position, and he missed a lot of time last year.  He still is a beast of an athlete with tremendous potential.  

 

Time will tell whether he is a great player or merely a good player.  This is a big year for him.

[DC9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Moyfbt6qG9Y

 

I mean, I remember him playing down in Nickel but I don't remember him playing 4-3 DE.  I try to block that year out though so it's entirely possible.

My opinion, its too soon to say on Orakpo.  We will agree he is a good pass rusher, but he does have his weaknesses.

 

He may not be worthy of his superstar status at this point, as he is adapting to a knew scheme and new position, and he missed a lot of time last year.  He still is a beast of an athlete with tremendous potential.  

 

Time will tell whether he is a great player or merely a good player.  This is a big year for him.

 

I agree it's too early for him, but barely.  He's about to finish out his rookie deal... and while I don't want to compare his situation to Campbell in terms of production (obvious K-po has 2 pro bowls and is a very good football player) you certainly can start having that conversation in terms of potential at this stage.

 

We heard every year that JCam was taking that next step.  We've now heard two years running that 98 is taking that step.  Last year didn't count but he has a lot riding on this year.  With a potentially improved secondary and an offense that can give him a lead he better

[s0crates]

Sounds about right to me on Orakpo's situation DC9.  This year it is put up or shut up for him.

 

I think the team will benefit from his return as a pass rusher for sure, but whether or not he take's that next step in the 3-4 remains to be seen.

[bedlamVR]

Overrated, to me, does not mean underacheiver or failure to live up to draft position. By either of those measures Cooley is not overrated

However, if we are talking perception vs reality then I do think Cooley is a prime candidate. He was loved here like Antonio Gates and, as fine a player as he was, he was no Gates. Six TDS in his first four years or not.

 

That's exactly how I'm talking. Just going off production compared to draft position, he's not overrated.

 

But a lot of posters on here (myself included for a time) put him up with the likes of Witten and Gonzalez, which he by no measure has. That's why I called him overrated.

 

And Bedlam, as for Orakpo vs Kerrigan - Rak gets some of the same hype that Cooley did. He gets put up with the likes of Ware, Suggs, Miller, and the other premier pass rushers. While he has put up decent numbers, he hasn't yet reached that level, but we like to put him there. His best year was as a rookie, when he primarily rushed from the defensive end position. In other words, we over-rate him. Yet Kerrigan continues to fly under the radar as a good pass rusher and good linebacker overall.

How many times did you ever see  Ware drop into coverage ?  - The reason he tends to get compared to those types of players in the media is because he is the best - or splashiest defender on the team as Ware/Miller/Suggs - are on their teams - and he has that kind of potential

 

In 2009 Orakpo was not miscast as an OLB in a 3-4 system but a SLB in a 4-3 system - he excelled when he could go after the passer but that was a really playing him out of position - and when he struggled going backwards in coverage, that etched into peoples minds that he will never be good in coverage ...And while I am not saying he is fantastic in coverage Rak he has dramatically improved and does tend to drop back a lot more than a Ware (for example)  but the perception is he cannot cover ...

 

In comparison Kerrigan has the 2 pick 6's and people think wow he must be all over the field but while Kerrigan is ahead of Rak where he was at this point in his career - he is not as a complete LB as Rak and simply does not have the same impact on the D as Rak does when he is out there

[s0crates]

Agree with bedlamVR that Orakpo has improved as an all-around linebacker, and you could really see that before he got hurt last year in his improved coverage skills.  I still tend to think of him as a pure pass rusher though, and I guess that is why I say we have to wait and see, a lot depends on how he does as more than a pass rusher this year (now his third as a 3-4 OLB), not just in coverage, but also in the run game.  To be great he has to be more than a rush specialist, otherwise he is just a very good specialist (albeit one that makes the defense better for sure).  

 

To my eyes, I thought he was making strides before his injury, so I am eager to see what he brings to the table this season.

[Hitman21ST]

How many times did you ever see  Ware drop into coverage ?  - The reason he tends to get compared to those types of players in the media is because he is the best - or splashiest defender on the team as Ware/Miller/Suggs - are on their teams - and he has that kind of potential

 

 

 

 

 

In 2009 Orakpo was not miscast as an OLB in a 3-4 system but a SLB in a 4-3 system - he excelled when he could go after the passer but that was a really playing him out of position - and when he struggled going backwards in coverage, that etched into peoples minds that he will never be good in coverage ...And while I am not saying he is fantastic in coverage Rak he has dramatically improved and does tend to drop back a lot more than a Ware (for example)  but the perception is he cannot cover ...

 

In comparison Kerrigan has the 2 pick 6's and people think wow he must be all over the field but while Kerrigan is ahead of Rak where he was at this point in his career - he is not as a complete LB as Rak and simply does not have the same impact on the D as Rak does when he is out there

 

Orakpo has improved his coverage, I was one of the first to point that out and continue to do so. I hope you don't get the impression that I don't like him - I'm one of his biggest fans. I'm just saying that if you're going to use the "how often does Ware drop into coverage" argument for Rak, then you need to have the sack production that Ware does, which at this point in his career, he hasn't achieved.

 

As for Kerrigan, At the moment he is better in coverage than Rak. His two pick sixes are a product of how smart and athletic he is. In both cases he was rushing, but noticed that the running back was going out into a route or a lineman was chopping him which meant it was a quick pass. He realized this and was able to adjust and bat the ball up to himself and run it in.

 

Rak has improved greatly in his coverage, but I don't think he's at that point yet. Kerrigan isn't as good as a pass rusher as Rak, but he is better in run support and pass defense.

[Henry]

Overrated, to me, does not mean underacheiver or failure to live up to draft position. By either of those measures Cooley is not overrated

However, if we are talking perception vs reality then I do think Cooley is a prime candidate. He was loved here like Antonio Gates and, as fine a player as he was, he was no Gates. Six TDS in his first four years or not.

Gangster points for liking your own post

And overrated vs underacheiving is probably the best way to say it. Along with Martin's terms of "you have to be rated". So anyone who never played a down or someone like Shuler was just a bust.

Did I like my own post? I had no idea.

This new site, I swear ...

[GO HAMSKINS]

How can Doug be consisdered overrated?????  What he did in the superbowl was all he needed to do to never be considered to overrated IMO

To me 'rating' someone based on a single game (however important the game and however great the performance) is the absolute definition of overrated.

This is all personal opinion though so I can totally see why others may feel differently.

I understand where you are coming from and this is no argument coming from me. He's a back up quarterback who had one of the greatest Superbowl games in the NFL's history. He was going head up against John Elway not some no name QB. That to me, validates that he's not overrated in my own opinion 

[GO HAMSKINS]

C. Griffin and CP are my underrated guys... And I would say ST21 just for the fact that when he was off the field injury/death you can forget about how much ground he would cover... Like we never knew how bad our DB's were until ST21 was off the field. Deep passes? Wide outs Catching the ball over the middle without fear, and that big play safety net died when he died he was such a good player in my eyes but some just have him rated as just another safety that was hyped by his murder. And to me that why I said i would kinda throw him in there. Overrated was Anthony Armstrong people were calling him D Jax buhahahahahah!!

[Califan007 The Constipated]

After reading this thread, I'm definitely going to say Cooley is among the most underrated lol...

 

Here's one reason why:

 

Top 10 TE rankings after their first 5 seasons in the league:

 

Yards

Kellen Winslow

Antonio Gates

Mike Ditka

Jason Witten

Tony Gonzales

Jackie Smith

Jeremy Shockey

Ozzie Newsome

John Mackey

Chris Cooley

 

Receptions

Jason Witten

Kellen Winslow

Antonio Gates

Tony Gonzales

Chris Cooley

Kellen Winslow, Jr.

Keith Jackson

Mike Ditka

Randy McMichael

 

TDs

Antonio Gates

Rob Gronkowski

Kellen Winslow

Jerry Smith

Mike Ditka

Tony Gonzales

Rich Caster

Vernon Davis

Rickey Dudley

Dave Casper

Chris Cooley (#11)

 

 

Cooley was 1 TD away from making the top 10 for all three categories.

 

Put another way, during his first 5 seasons Cooley had 314 receptions, 3,457 yards and 28 TDs. Here's a list of TEs throughout the history of the NFL who had at least 314 receptions, 3,457 yards and 28 TDs in their first 5 seasons in the league:

 

Kellen Winslow

Antonio Gates

Tony Gonzales

Chris Cooley

 

That's it.

 

And check out the QBs each of these four TEs played with during their first 5 seasons:

 

Kellen Winslow - played with Dan Fouts.

 

Antonio Gates - played with Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers.

 

Tony Gonzales - played with Rich Gannon, Trent Green and Elvis Grbac.

 

Chris Cooley?...He played with Mark Brunell, Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell and Todd Collins.

 

 

During his 6th year, Cooley got injured (concussin and ankle, I think)...and thanks to having the personal training regimine of an unmotivated sloth, his recovery from his injuries just wasn't really there. But those first 5 seasons is what gained Cooley the aduration and appreciation of so many Skins fans. To see it swept under the rug with dismissive (and at times even disdainful) casualness just baffles me. I don't get it.

 

[Henry]

Overrated, to me, does not mean underacheiver or failure to live up to draft position. By either of those measures Cooley is not overrated

However, if we are talking perception vs reality then I do think Cooley is a prime candidate. He was loved here like Antonio Gates and, as fine a player as he was, he was no Gates. Six TDS in his first four years or not.

 

It is not even that - you hate on a player because he is not player X - Cooley was not Gates, sure but then Gates was a star on a star studded roster ...So it is totally okay completely disregard all a players achievements because other fans think he on a par with other top players of his generation - this is ass backwards thinking that made sure Art Monk was continually snubbed in the HOF voting .. because despite the production certain sports writers thought Monk was 'over hyped'  when compared to Irvin and Carter etc...

 

Saying Cooley is overrated is not hating on him. It's just not loving him as much as the rest of the fans do.

 

And it's not completely disregarding achievements. It's just not over-valuing them.

 

Monk was in his 30s when Irvin and Carter entered the league. They were not his contemporaries, and that's why it was not fair to compare them to Monk.

 

Cooley and Gates entered the league one year apart. They are peers. Comparing them is far more appropriate. 

 

But that was just an example. My only point in comparing them was that Cooley was not an elite player but many fans talk about him like he was. 

 

 

 

SO a player being under rated or over rated is based soley on perception and if a player gets too many stories written about him because he is bringing it on the field - he instantly becomes over rated ?

 

Sure. That and messageboard love. I assume when the OP asked us who we thought were over and underrated, we would take into account stuff we've read on this and other boards. Some players are fan favorites and thought of by Redskin fans better than they are by, say, the rest of the league ... that sort of thing. I definitely think Cooley falls into that category.

 

 

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

 

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

 

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Cali, that is quite the gymnastics routine you're doing.

 

If you lean this way and squint that way and look at the list through your left eye, you can see that Cooley was one of the top four TEs in the history or the NFL!

 

... and people wonder why I say he's over-rated.

 

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

 

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

[s0crates]

Have to agree with Cali on this one.  Cooley was a beast in his prime, he just didn't last as long as guys like Gates and Gonzales.

[Hitman21ST]

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

 

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

 

For the first five years, he was a very good tight end. However, he played nine years, and the last four he was average to below average; fans kept insisting though that he was one of the best in the league, on par with Witten, Gates, Gonzo, and the others. They were overrating him tremendously.

 

You can't just look at his first five years, you have to look at the whole career. And for his career, he was an average tight end.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Yet you didn't dispute one thing I said. Intersting.

 

Show me even slightly where I overrated him. I dare you to come up with anything coherent when you do.

 

For the first five years, he was a very good tight end. However, he played nine years, and the last four he was average to below average; fans kept insisting though that he was one of the best in the league, on par with Witten, Gates, Gonzo, and the others. They were overrating him tremendously.

 

I rarely remember anyone in 2010-2012 claiming Cooley was on par with Witten, Gates or Gonzo. He wasn't on the field enough to claim that. Mayyybe in 2009 because that was still after his first 5 incredibly productive years.

 

 

You can't just look at his first five years, you have to look at the whole career. And for his career, he was an average tight end.

 

When I looked at the first 5 years, it's because of something you said, actually:

 

 

But a lot of posters on here (myself included for a time) put him up with the likes of Witten and Gonzalez, which he by no measure has.

 

Yes, there was a time when Skins fans rated Cooley rather high as a TE...and guess what--that time was after his first 5 years in the league. He was consistent. He was damn productive. I posted the stats from the first 5 seasons for two reasons:

 

1) To show that there was indeed a time when rating Chris Cooley high on the list of TEs was valid...hell, I even found posts back then from Dallas fans on Cowboyszone which said the same thing. Cowboys fans calling Cooley and "elite" TE that "any team would be lucky to have". Those stats I showed for the 5 years before he first got injured should damn impressive to anyone with the ability to be intellectually honest. Whether his career overall should be seen in the same light as his first 5 prime years, nobody has really said it should. But hopefully we'll stop acting like the only reason fans rate Cooley so high is because they "love" his character and because none of the other Skins TEs were any good lol...the man balled balled out, and his production was more than enough to earn him tons of fans.

 

2) To show how some on this site being so casually dismissive of Cooley's production in his prime was foolish...you don't put up the numbers Cooley did in his prime from nothing but "checkdowns" or by being an "average" TE.

 

I tend to hate arguments that rely primarily on fan perception. Your stance does that, unfortunately. Your opinion was formed from memories of what you perceived to be an abundance of fans still claiming Cooley was as good as Witten, Gates and Gonzales even as injuries took their toll on him. My opinion, however, is based on the memories of what I perceived as far, FAR more fans wanting Davis to be the starting TE as early as 2009, and almost none still claiming Cooley as good as the elite TEs in 2010-2012. But at least my stance also has stats to back it up...it's not just me going off memory and general perception.

 

But your perceptions and my perceptions can't be proven (not easily, anyway). So simply stating that "too many fans thought Cooley was as good as Witten and Gates" doesn't prove anything, and can't be argued for or against.

[Hitman21ST]

Fair enough, and good points. However, wouldn't an important part of either being over or underrated be fan's perception? From where I am, both on the boards and in discussions with other Skins fans in my area, a good number of them were still trying to put him up with Gates and Witten during the last half of his career, which is why I said he was overrated. If you've had a different experience, I can't really argue against that haha.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Fair enough, and good points. However, wouldn't an important part of either being over or underrated be fan's perception?

 

Well...true ...Ok, I hadn't thought of that lol...

 

From where I am, both on the boards and in discussions with other Skins fans in my area, a good number of them were still trying to put him up with Gates and Witten during the last half of his career, which is why I said he was overrated. If you've had a different experience, I can't really argue against that haha.

 

I'm sure there were some stragglers, yeah...what I tended to experience (at least on the internet) was having and/or witnessing a ton of debate from 2009 on about how Fred Davis had surpassed Cooley and he should be traded because of it. That didn't come across as overrating Cooley in my eyes--or underrating him, for that matter. Back them we seemed far more willing to acknowledge Cooley's production in his first 5 years as being among the best in the league among TEs (and by "best" I don't mean the top 2-3 lol).

 

Seriously, a moderator on CZ  in 2007 was chastizing Cowboys fans for being "homers" and not acknowledging Cooley's impressive production. The conventional wisdom around here lately seems to be to do just that.