The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Burgold]

Maybe the same reason rappers using the N-word doesn't make it okay for white people to use it?

Yeah, except that the logic falls short. Calling the team the Red Mesa Redskins means that everyone seeing the game, reporting on the game, or talking about the name must use the word. It becomes a public property not a communal in-word. More, as I've said before... no black college, segregated high school, or professional negro league team in the history of the country has ever chosen to call itself the N-words whereas multiple Native American teams have chosen Redskins. Red Mesa isn't even the only one.

[s0crates]

If you want just one, the Patawomeck tribe and chief came out with a very strong endorsement. Even said that if a name change was demanded we could call our team after them.

If this is so, then I like the idea of calling our team after them.

[Boss_Hogg]

If you want just one, the Patawomeck tribe and chief came out with a very strong endorsement. Even said that if a name change was demanded we could call our team after them.

Much respect to the Patawomeck tribe (1500 members strong) and Chief John Lightner. They aren't federally recognized but they should be.

Okay so our team has one local tribe (not federally recognized unfortunetly) come out in defense of our team name and mascot.

Compare that with Cherokee Nation, Navajo Nation, Sioux-Lakota, Oneida, Pawnee, etc just a handful of the largest indigenous tribes in America who do not support our team name or logo.

Did you know that members from all these tribes protested our team at some point last year? The biggest protest was Minnesota where there are dozens of indigenous tribes in that state.

We claim 90% of natives aren't offended and we cite the red Mesa HS and the counter protesters in Glendale, AZ as supporters. But where was the Native American support in Minnesota? There were 5,000 indigenous peoples protesting our name, we had zero counter protestors.

The protests will continue and get stronger until Snyder changes name/mascot. In fact the change the mascot grassroots campaign has increased dramatically since the fall of the 2014. They are planning even stronger protests against our team - some in our very own backyard at FedEx field.

[Boss_Hogg]

No, it doesn't

How you figure? Dan is still facing a PR nightmare with his "NEVER IN CAPS" thing and Bruce Allen's failed #RedskinsPride twitter troll on a US Senator.

Dan knew he needed something positive so he created an organization to buy support and silence.

Isn't that how he's tried to fix things in the past with our team? Just throw money at it.

[RFKFedEx]

No, it doesn't

Why isn't the OAF going full steam ahead with it's mission? Given these tough times, I'd think Snyder and company would want OAF's activities to be front and center.  

[Patrick Evidente]

Yeah, except that the logic falls short. Calling the team the Red Mesa Redskins means that everyone seeing the game, reporting on the game, or talking about the name must use the word. It becomes a public property not a communal in-word. More, as I've said before... no black college, segregated high school, or professional negro league team in the history of the country has ever chosen to call itself the N-words whereas multiple Native American teams have chosen Redskins. Red Mesa isn't even the only one.

Exactly. There is zero teams named the N-words because it is 100% slur. Meanwhile there are many teams in this country named Redskins.

[Spearfeather]

Why isn't the OAF going full steam ahead with it's mission? Given these tough times, I'd think Snyder and company would want OAF's activities to be front and center.  

How do you know they're not ?

 

I think advertising every gesture made by OAF would just give the media more opportunity to bash the name and Snyder, but maybe you're right. I mean, there was nothing but praise for him and OAF when it was announced.

Dan knew he needed something positive so he created an organization to buy support and silence.

 

 

No one is required to sing " Hail to the Redskins " before receiving help from the OAF. As a matter of fact there have been tribes that are against the name that have accepted help from OAF.

[Larry]

But where was the Native American support in Minnesota? There were 5,000 indigenous peoples protesting our name, we had zero counter protestors.

You got any support for that claim that you've now made twice?

I try to find out how many protested, and I see articles citing 5,000, and 400.

And I don't see a single one saying that every single one of those 5,000 protesters was Native.

[RedskinsFan44]

You got any support for that claim that you've now made twice?

I try to find out how many protested, and I see articles citing 5,000, and 400.

And I don't see a single one saying that every single one of those 5,000 protesters was Native.

It was thousands, the game was held on a campus that is known for its NA Studies program in a city that is the epicenter for NA political activism. In Phoenix, largest city in the state with the largest NA population about 70 showed up. There is obviously regional differences in how the term is regarded, I saw a quote that was basically a western NA saying that the southeastern NA did not have a right to coin a term to refer to them.

[Boss_Hogg]

Yeah, except that the logic falls short. Calling the team the Red Mesa Redskins means that everyone seeing the game, reporting on the game, or talking about the name must use the word. It becomes a public property not a communal in-word. More, as I've said before... no black college, segregated high school, or professional negro league team in the history of the country has ever chosen to call itself the N-words whereas multiple Native American teams have chosen Redskins. Red Mesa isn't even the only one.

 

Another good argument about the name.

 

So let's say the Redskins isn't a slur and no native person has ever been slurred by it. 

 

However it doesn't help the issue(s) involving native Americans being mocked, stereotyped, insulted, and degraded because they're being used as mascots by a professional sports teams. 

 

And we shouldn't compare a small native american high school on a remote indian reservation in northeast Arizona to the 3rd most valuable sports franchise in the NFL in Washington, DC.

 

Some Good Reading about the harmful effects of native american mascots in professional sports:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/19/my-native-identity-isnt-your-plaything-mascots-pocahotties

http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/indian-mascots.aspx

 

You got any support for that claim that you've now made twice?

I try to find out how many protested, and I see articles citing 5,000, and 400.

And I don't see a single one saying that every single one of those 5,000 protesters was Native.

 

You're right, it was just a handful of white kids

 

 

 

 

I mean, there was nothing but praise for him and OAF when it was announced.

 

That's simply not true:

 

Brian Cladoosby, the president of the NCAI: "Snyder, his team and the NFL are welcome to join Indian country as allies and partners but only when they make their most significant contribution up front: Retire the name of this team. Only then will we truly know Snyder’s commitment to Indian country, to Native youth and to a future where tribal nations and our people are treated as equal to all other Americans."

[Bonez3]

I'm curious, how do most NA's feel about the word Indian? Is there any movements or objections to that?

[Taylor703]

Maybe the same reason rappers using the N-word doesn't make it okay for white people to use it?

Please stop comparing the two words. This argument that they carry the same weight is so stupid.

[RFKFedEx]

I was fortunate to visit a many nations Pow Wow at the American University today. The numerous ceremonial attires I saw made me re-realize the utter laziness with which our Indian themed mascots represent the Indigenous. The noble savage warrior is a 'one size fits all' approach to playing Indian. 

[chipwhich]

You're right, it was just a handful of white kids

 

 

Mmmmm Larry????

[Larry]

You got any support for that claim that you've now made twice?

I try to find out how many protested, and I see articles citing 5,000, and 400.

And I don't see a single one saying that every single one of those 5,000 protesters was Native.

It was thousands, the game was held on a campus that is known for its NA Studies program in a city that is the epicenter for NA political activism. In Phoenix, largest city in the state with the largest NA population about 70 showed up. There is obviously regional differences in how the term is regarded, I saw a quote that was basically a western NA saying that the southeastern NA did not have a right to coin a term to refer to them.

I take it that's "no".

You're right, it was just a handful of white kids

I take it that's "No, but I've got an attitude, and I'm willing to maker up even more stuff"

[Springfield]

I'm done if the name changes.

I've stuck by this team through 20 something years of losing. I'm done with football if the DC team isn't the Redskins any longer.

[chipwhich]

I've stuck by this team through 20 something years of losing. I'm done with football if the DC team isn't the Redskins any longer.

 

No you won't.  A name change won't change anything.  Bullets did it.  Redskins can do it and make money all through the process.  You gonna cheer for the Patriots?  Please.

[nonniey]

Uh, we've had posts, in this thread, from actual ES members who have had the word "redskins" used as a racial slur.

It's certainly not the word's most common usage. The word ALMOST always refers to the football team. But that doesn't mean that it's NEVER been used as a slur.

----------

Grego,

You're seriously quoting an article about "George Soros, the most brilliant man in the world"?

It's satire, right?

Any word can be used as a slur - we going to ban blonde next?  But for a word to become a slur it has to commonly be used as such  and Redskins was never commonly used that way (Even in the 19th and early 20th centuries - heck look at the old western movies and books that actually used Redskins -  it wasn't used as an aspersion). And to be honest I have hard time believing posters that said someone used Redskins that way.

[Larry]

I'm not aware of the requirement that a word must be offensive the majority of the time, or else it's never offensive.

Me, I've certainly never heard it used that way. But then, my life experience is vastly different from what it would have been, if i had LOOKED like a Native, and if I had spent my life on a reservation. I have no trouble at all believing people who have lived under those conditions, when they tell stories, say, of being kicked out of diners for being Native.

But, to me, it's even simpler than that.

The oft-quoted Annenberg poll found that 9% of natives felt that the name of the football team was offensive. That's not a majority. But it's still thousands of people.

I don't think it's remotely possible that ALL of them were lying.

No, it seems blindingly obvious, to me, that there are thousands of people out there who DO find the word offensive. For one reason or another. (And, IMO, their reason really doesn't matter).

[Burgold]

I was fortunate to visit a many nations Pow Wow at the American University today. The numerous ceremonial attires I saw made me re-realize the utter laziness with which our Indian themed mascots represent the Indigenous. The noble savage warrior is a 'one size fits all' approach to playing Indian. 

This is another point that I've considered deeply.

 

What if "Redskins" is a deeply venomous slur, but to only some tribes? We like talking about Native Americans as one homogeneous group. Frankly, that's racist. They are many separate cultures. It is reasonable to think that within these different cultures, they have had different experiences.

 

Maybe globally, across all Native American experience the Annenburg poll is correct and 90% are correct that the word is inoffensive and has never been used as a slur against them.  Maybe also in some regions of the country or against certain Native Nations the word was used with hostility.

 

What then?

 

I can tell you living on the East Coast my whole life I have never heard the word being used as an insult or pejorative. I certainly don't doubt that people living in Arizona could have a different experience.  On the silly side of logic, I watched a lot of Cowboy movies growing up and when they wanted to insult them they didn't call them Redskins, but dirty injuns. Redskins was used in the Cowboy movies, but more as a clinical term. The white man's land. The Red Man's land. That kind of thing.

 

But somewhere, somewhen Redskin may be an insult. Is it today? Was it widespread? Is it a cancer that needs to be cut out?

 

The mascot argument is also interesting. I'm not sure that I buy it, but I can buy that seeing someone dressed in head dresses might be viewed as mocking your culture. Chief Wahoo is certainly an ugly, racist, stereotypical image. Do the Irish feel that way about Nortre Dame? Do they suffer ill effects? What about Scandinavian people? Are they harmed by the Vikings?

 

I think we are making simple arguments in the light of something complex. I do think it's also useful to be wary of the arguments made by those who clearly seem to be profiteering off the issue: UnWise Mike, Harjo, Halbritter, and the like. What they are doing is probably more hateful and hurtful because they are trying to turn the name into something hateful. 

 

I'm on the pro Redskin side mainly because the data leans that way. I can change. I also know that words are fluid. People like Wise, Harjo, and Halbritter could change the word. It can be a word of history, pride, and tradition and be twisted into one filled with hate, distrust and abuse. I think the latter manipulation is a very sad outcome.

[Bonez3]

This is another point that I've considered deeply.

 

What if "Redskins" is a deeply venomous slur, but to only some tribes? We like talking about Native Americans as one homogeneous group. Frankly, that's racist. They are many separate cultures. It is reasonable to think that within these different cultures, they have had different experiences.

 

Maybe globally, across all Native American experience the Annenburg poll is correct and 90% are correct that the word is inoffensive and has never been used as a slur against them.  Maybe also in some regions of the country or against certain Native Nations the word was used with hostility.

 

What then?

 

I can tell you living on the East Coast my whole life I have never heard the word being used as an insult or pejorative. I certainly don't doubt that people living in Arizona could have a different experience.  On the silly side of logic, I watched a lot of Cowboy movies growing up and when they wanted to insult them they didn't call them Redskins, but dirty injuns. Redskins was used in the Cowboy movies, but more as a clinical term. The white man's land. The Red Man's land. That kind of thing.

 

But somewhere, somewhen Redskin may be an insult. Is it today? Was it widespread? Is it a cancer that needs to be cut out?

 

The mascot argument is also interesting. I'm not sure that I buy it, but I can buy that seeing someone dressed in head dresses might be viewed as mocking your culture. Chief Wahoo is certainly an ugly, racist, stereotypical image. Do the Irish feel that way about Nortre Dame? Do they suffer ill effects? What about Scandinavian people? Are they harmed by the Vikings?

 

I think we are making simple arguments in the light of something complex. I do think it's also useful to be wary of the arguments made by those who clearly seem to be profiteering off the issue: UnWise Mike, Harjo, Halbritter, and the like. What they are doing is probably more hateful and hurtful because they are trying to turn the name into something hateful. 

 

I'm on the pro Redskin side mainly because the data leans that way. I can change. I also know that words are fluid. People like Wise, Harjo, and Halbritter could change the word. It can be a word of history, pride, and tradition and be twisted into one filled with hate, distrust and abuse. I think the latter manipulation is a very sad outcome.

I tend to agree with this, but where is that niche. It really doesn't exist. As been stated here, a slur transcends geographical boundaries, its like wildfire. Most everybody in this thread save for a couple posters have never heard it used as a slur and most others heard it through another source. 

 

I've proposed other races have to have an opinion in this because we would be the offenders. Most people have heard every slur about every race. Don't you think it would have permeated through to the general population a little more?

 

Anyway, if you honor a certain tribe that may represent a vast minority (and the reasoning will be left out for arguments sake) than that creates a slippery slope. Honestly, regardless of cause, if some group is offended, a precedence will be set. I usually reference PETA and the Packers here. No the issue isn't race, but many just as passionate. Another I have stated can be offensive on a more serious note is the Saints.

 

Lastly, it was proposed than debunked that no other sports franchises use race as a mascot. See Boston Celtics. Are Irish offended by this, most probably not. Are some possible offended by the mock jig Notre Dame students do after scores, similar to chants and chops, probably not. It is using the likeness of culture in a similar fashion. However, students going to Notre Dame game in Belfast in past were told not to wear clothing that said 'Fighting Irish' and had Leprechaun. Now, what about the offensiveness to other cultures, etc.

 

I just don't think niches that could be offended by extrapolating possible offensive use from a name should influence the overall issue.

[Burgold]

 

 

I just don't think niches that could be offended by extrapolating possible offensive use from a name should influence the overall issue.

Quibble. I don't know that it should have a large magnitude of effect. I do think it should be considered.

 

In thinking about the fluidity of words, I thought about the opposite route. For most of my life, certainly all of my childhood, being called Gay was an insult. It was pretty vile. "That's gay, man" was never meant happily. After decades of hard work, protest, storytelling, and effort... gay not only no longer holds the venom it does, it's become a pretty neutral term. It's just a state of being. That's the power of UnWise Mike, Harjo, and Halbritter using the power of language for good. 

 

What's being done in the Redskins argument is an attempt to try to create evil or to try to increase malice. I agree with you that it is not for me to decide what is offensive to others, but I certainly am influenced by the ripples of thought and conscience. Does making Redskins into the R word cause more harm than good. I think it might.

 

There was a time when being called a Jew was an insult. They'd turn it into a verb in a pretty ugly way. I think WWII, but more comics like Mel Brooks, Milton Berle and others did a fantastic job of making Jews human and helping to incorporate them into the fabric today. They didn't do that by running away from identity, but by embracing it, teaching words and practices, and telling stories. Creating a new, more inclusive us.

 

In my life time, no one has ever used the term the "R" word. That's a very recent invention and it could be a dangerous one. On the other hand, just to circle back, if I am wrong... then I am happy to adopt new language. A rose by any other name, you know, but if I do adopt new language part of the word will change because we will all look with suspicion on these words which will make some think about the validity of them. So, works hatred.

 

Creating a term like the R word could legitimize that hate.

[Bonez3]

YEA- That is pretty much what will occur IMO if the name is changed. We would have given the word more power than it ever had. And yes, words can evolve in meaning. But, especially in todays PC society, we are not in the business of using any simple descriptors to identify people. So, Redskins as an identifier is an obsolete word (save for the random examples used in this thread). The only essential usage by probably 90+% of society is a football team. So, if it wasn't derogatory historically, and it isn't now, the likelihood it will be in future even less, IMO. 

[Larry]

But it's also the case, Burg, that words can become offensive, over time.

For a good part of my youth, the n-word was simply a term to define black people. (Although I also have to confess that, for a good part of my youth, being openly racist against them was cool, too.)

 

The n-word (as far as I know) became offensive, because millions of black people heard it snarled at them.  In many cases, by people who were beating them.  Or who were just plain treating them like sub human creatures. 

 

That's why I assume that a person's feeling about the word "redskin" depends a whole lot on the listener's life experience.  Which also makes it's offensive-ness a matter which varies, from listener to listener. 

[Bang]

I was fortunate to visit a many nations Pow Wow at the American University today. The numerous ceremonial attires I saw made me re-realize the utter laziness with which our Indian themed mascots represent the Indigenous. The noble savage warrior is a 'one size fits all' approach to playing Indian. 

And i'll bet it never occurred to you how lazy it is to "realize" these things, and still totally support the team who's name you won't say.

 

I wonder how they'd have reacted if you had told them that you stand with them on the name thing, but support the team in every other way?

When was the last time you paid for a ticket and went to the game?

 

I'd think it's like the guy who bemoans how they had their land stolen, while sitting in his house on stolen land.

 

 

Were items for sale? Vendors that would sell you a blanket, dream catcher or a Navajo beaded barette? (The beaded barette is on the PowWow website, front page. I doubt they demand you must be a native to buy it.) 

Likewise the offer to buy a dance or a song at a pow wow.

 

~Bang