Xameil Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I think he was meaning that the Redskins word was originally used to describe a group of people and THEN became a term referring to a football team (the proper noun in this case). Oreo was originally used to describe the cookie (the proper noun) and THEN became a term referring to a group of people. ] No. A native American tribe referred to themselves as that before it became a slur Exactly. It describes people...by their race. Thus, different from something used to name a sweet Except...it was a native American tribe calling themselves that. Guess who turned it into a slur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whats up? Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Fine, change the name... but Dan needs to make sure every game afterwards is featuring a throwback/retro jersey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Really? For better or worse, there's no disputing that the name change movement has picked up steam. The President of the United States has opined that the name should change. The U.S. Patent Office and federal courts have declared the Redskins name patently offensive. Various Members of Congress have written the NFL league office urging that the name be changed. The mayor of the city the team represents has declared that the team cannot relocate within the city limits unless the name changes. News outlets that will no longer use the name (as of Sept. 2014): - Seattle Times - New york Daily News - Washington Post editorial board - Detroit News - Orange County Register - San Francisco Chronicle - Capital News Service - Syracuse New Times - Richmond Free Press - Slate - Mother Jones - The New Republic - DCist - Washington City Paper - Kansas City Star - The Oregonian And I'll make it simple for you. If that's what you want to hang your hat on, the cause is doomed. Talk about splitting hairs. Let me also add the following Native American individuals and organizations calling for our team to change the name and/or mascot: Tribes: Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma Comanche Nation of Oklahoma United tribes of Colville Reservation (consists of 12 tribes in Washington state) Chippewa Tribe Hoh Indian Tribe Muscogee Tribe Chickasaw Tribe Choctaw Tribe Seminole Tribe outside Florida Juaneño Tribe Little River Band of Ottawa Indians Pottawatomi Indians of Michigan Menominee Tribe Oneida Indian Nation Oneida Tribes of Wisconsin Osage Nation Navajo Nation (huge) Penobscot Nation Poarch Band of Creek Indians Samish Indian Nation Shoshone-Bannock Tribes Standing Rock Sioux Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara Nations (Fort Berthold Indian Reservations) Native American Organizations: Advocates for American Indian Children (California) American Indian Mental Health Association (Minnesota) American Indian Movement[323] American Indian Opportunities Industrialization Center of San Bernardino County American Indian Student Services at the Ohio State University American Indian High Education Consortium American Indian College Fund Americans for Indian Opportunity Association on American Indian Affairs Buncombe County Native American Inter-tribal Association (North Carolina) Capitol Area Indian Resources (Sacramento, CA) Concerned American Indian Parents (Minnesota) Council for Indigenous North Americans (University of Southern Maine) Eagle and Condor Indigenous Peoples’ Alliance First Peoples Worldwide Fontana Native American Indian Center, Inc. (California) Governor’s Interstate Indian Council Greater Tulsa Area Indian Affairs Commission[324] Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council (Wisconsin) HONOR – Honor Our Neighbors Origins and Rights Kansas Association for Native American Education Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs Medicine Wheel Inter-tribal Association (Louisiana) Minnesota Indian Education Association National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) National Indian Child Welfare Association National Indian Education Association National Indian Youth Council National Native American Law Student Association Native American Caucus of the California Democratic Party Native American Finance Officers Association (NAFOA)[325] Native American Journalists Association[326] Native American Indian Center of Central Ohio Native American Journalists Association Native American Rights Fund (NARF) Native Voice Network Nebraska Commission on Indian Affairs Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi (Michigan) Not Your Mascots, Inc. North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs North Dakota Indian Education Association Office of Native American Ministry, Diocese of Grand Rapids (Michigan) Ohio Center for Native American Affairs San Bernardino/Riverside Counties Native American Community Council Seminole Nation of Oklahoma Society of Indian Psychologists of the Americas Southern California Indian Center St. Cloud State University – American Indian Center Tennessee Chapter of the National Coalition for the Preservation of Indigenous Cultures Tennessee Commission of Indian Affairs Tennessee Native Veterans Society Tulsa Indian Coalition Against Racism[327] The Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation Unified Coalition for American Indian Concerns, Virginia The United Indian Nations of Oklahoma Virginia American Indian Cultural Resource Center Wisconsin Indian Education Association WIEA "Indian" Mascot and Logo Taskforce (Wisconsin) Woodland Indian Community Center-Lansing (Michigan) Youth "Indian" Mascot and Logo Task force (Wisconsin) Prominent Native American politicians, authors, scholars, actors, musicians, and entertainers: Sherman Alexie (Author) Bruce Anderson (Former NFL Player) Irene Bedard (Actress) Notah Begay (PGA Golfer) Clyde Bellecourt (activist) Ben "Nighthorse" Campbell (Republican US Senator) Gregg Deal (DC resident and artist) Vine Deloria (Sioux Tribal Historian) Louise Erdrich (Author) Kevin Gover (National Museum of the American Indian Director) Litefoot (Cherokee rapper) Russell Means (activist, actor, author, RIP) Billy Mills (US Olympic Gold Medalist) Ted Nolan (NFL Player) Gyasi Ross Blackfeet attorney and writer (he however admits his son is a Redskins fan) How many tribes or organizations have come to support our team name or mascot? None Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 See, it's that 'and/or mascot' thing. Tells me everything I need to know. The logo is the resemblance of a proud, strong human being. How could anyone find disrespect or be offended by that. Aha- Because the real issue is NA imagery. At least admit that. I stated from outset, if Redskins goes, than all NA mascots and names need to go. Skins are just the scapegoat. The only victory I would want if the name changes is the recognition the name is not a slur and the motive was more based on the social anxiety NA experience when non-NA people who, by and large, were actually trying to honor them in some shape, form and fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearfeather Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 How many tribes or organizations have come to support our team name or mascot? None How many Tribes are on your list ? Out of the 567 Federally recognized tribes, what percentage is that ? And looking at your list of Councils and organizations, I'm reminded of this from the SI article " Indian Wars ".: " Indeed, a recent SI poll (charts, above) suggests that although Native American activists are virtually united in opposition to the use of Indian nicknames and mascots, the Native American population sees the issue far differently. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Except that list doesn't mention the percentages within the tribes and organizations against it. I've read before in this thread where one on the list consisted of on of the head officials of the tribe but when members were asked about it they didn't have the same views or weren't asked about it. There are many Navajos that have come out and supported the name as well and disagree with Harjo. Without actual numbers than just "this tribe disagrees" it's kind of hard to consider that being 100%. It's like someone in office that has a certain view that hasn't been voted on and it being known that all of America supports it. Example : all of America supports 'x' because person 'y' represents the country and stated his opinion on the matter. Or Obama doesn't support the name so since he leads our country then no one supports the name within our country yet with an actual poll that's not close to being true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearfeather Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Exactly. As an example, the Navajo Nation is on the list. This gives the impression that the entire Navajo Nation, or at least a large majority is against the name but, we know that's not true just by looking at some of the pictures of Navajo Redskins fans in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFKFedEx Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 The only victory I would want if the name changes is the recognition the name is not a slur and the motive was more based on the social anxiety NA experience when non-NA people who, by and large, were actually trying to honor them in some shape, form and fashion. Why would our honoring cause social anxiety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I've lived in AK, WA, and OR most of my life. Many of you likely know the general scope of the NA/Aleut-Inuit populations and their significance still to the region. Anecdotal, but in both work and personal life, my contact has been fairly extensive. I actually have had, and it goes from way back to recently, a handful of challenging conversations when wearing Redskins colors or saying I was a fan. But I'd say it was a very small percentage compared to those who either actually liked the usage (largest percentage by far) or didn't care (second place). Now what one draws from that regarding "how many who don't like it does it take to warrant a change", I don't have that number, if it's even numbers that should matter versus principle (in "either way"). But with "principles" (values) I think it's often more the province of dem dere dynamic social processes than inherent "truth." Many people have a hard time dealing with the reality that even the most strongly held positions in all aspects/institutions of human society often undergo change over time (some quite dramatic). The "this is right" or "this is wrong" approach when a particular "right" or "wrong" are neither truly quantifiable or immutable gets sticky, just as we see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFKFedEx Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 So a Native American Chief gave Joe Theismann a headdress as a gift? Interesting http://deadspin.com/joe-theismann-joined-fox-news-to-talk-redskins-it-we-1716807614 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearfeather Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 RFK, let me ask you ... what exactly did you think of that article? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 How many Tribes are on your list ? Out of the 567 Federally recognized tribes, what percentage is that ? And looking at your list of Councils and organizations, I'm reminded of this from the SI article " Indian Wars ".: " Indeed, a recent SI poll (charts, above) suggests that although Native American activists are virtually united in opposition to the use of Indian nicknames and mascots, the Native American population sees the issue far differently. " activists are politically active, politically active activists gravitate to political organizations, political organizations seek things- change in legislation, social justice, ...money....attention? whatever it may be, your point is valid. these tribes likely speak as much for natives as the nation of islam speaks for african americans. further, i'd like to know about some of these organizations. last year, someone had looked into some of them, and many were sketchy- as in, one or two actual members and such. speaking of which- susan harjos own 'morningstar institute' is one i've tried in the past to get info on. several websites i saw listed the number of employees of this outfit as "1 to 2" and listed the $ amount of contracts awarded (it was something like 60k over the last year or two).(check that- 163 k from the smithsonian in 2011, to be completed by 2015- http://government-contracts.insidegov.com/l/1288602/F11CC10488 cant seem to find an official website, which is weird, but i would have to think one exists, outside of this facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Morning-Star-Institute/105374009529391 (funny, the one post on the page is this--- Debbie Fox — 3 starHow insecure is one when they have to attack & fight to have a Football mascot/team Name changed!! REALLY.... "Redskins" c'mon Suzan Harjo being an activist & Pres. of Morning Star Institute in DC I know there has to be better issues to battle than this please!!! Native Americans are Redskins & I myself kinda think it being cool that our Nations Capital named the football team of indigenous people of whom they did wrong..!! I'm a Cherokee & proud of it and thought you would be to. Clearly you need to step back & choose battles that might help us & not such petty bs as this. Grow up & get over it please. what does that mean? i dont know. but, if i'm guessing, i'd say susan harjo believes her 'organization' validates her belief that she speaks for all native americans. clearly, she appears to have a messiah complex. her writings certainly indicate she is and absolute racist. (calling the white man "the disease"). if you are unfamiliar, i encourage you to look into her- the face of the name changers, if there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 No. A native American tribe referred to themselves as that before it became a slur Except...it was a native American tribe calling themselves that. Guess who turned it into a slur. Guess who turned it into a slur?? No one did. It was never commonly used as a slur. Todays anti-Redskins call it a slur but are patently wrong (As are the Dictionaries). As has been posted those making the aspersion create the slur that never happened enough to change Redskins into a slur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 ok- glad i'm not the only one who wonders why they can find virtually nothing about susan harjos "morning star institute"- this guy seems to have had the same difficulty. .. http://www.badeagle.com/2010/12/07/soros-has-no-use-for-indians/ George Soros won’t even use leftist Indians, like Dennis Banks, Leonard Peltiere, Clyde or Vernon Bellecourt, or Russell Means. He would never invest in their abject, failed causes. Besides, most of the these retired Indian activitsts were all breeds, or thin bloods, or no bloods (like Ward Churchill), or the kind that claim two or more tribes to assert their disconnected identity, like Suzan Harjo. And not a one of them ever represented their tribe, or Indian people, really. They were never elected by Indians to anything, as far as we know. They only claim they represented Indian people, and got some funding for so doing. George Soros, the most brilliant manin the world, sees right through theIndian protesters. They have nodesire to overturn the US government. It half way worked in the beginning, when the Communists were funding them, as in the American Indian Movement case. But, then they had to strike out on their own, by up-scaling their targets. Professional sports mascots, like the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, or the Washington Redskins, these targets brought the professional protesters instant fame–and some fortune. Suzan Harjo, who apparently never was significantly involved in any of the tribes she claims blood kin to, nor sought special association with them, found her start in New York radio in the ’60′s, WBAI FM. In 1974 she moved to Washington DC. She obtained a job working for a couple of law firms who represented Indian cases, and was able to procure presidential appointment as congressional liaison for Indian Affairs in 1974. At least this is all than can be gleaned from superficial internet sources. Suzan Harjo, president of theunresearchable Morning StarInstitute, in D.C. Like most professional Indian protesters, however, with few exceptions, her real status came from an organization–her Morning Star Institute (1984), of which, ironically, nothing can be learned from the internet. One brief PDF file exists, but the institute has no web page. In fact, we cannot even varify that the Harjo has a high school diploma. Vital personal information on her is lacking, as well as on her institute. The mystic institute does have an address, though, if you search hard enough: THE MORNING STAR INSTITUTE611 Pennsylvania Avenue, SEWashington, DC20003 And a phone!(202) 547-5531 At least this information is currently on the internet. Perhaps we could ask for a disclosure of the organization’s structure, it’s financial records, funders, associations, etc., not for any suspicion of illegality, but simply to know where the money comes from. Perhaps Morning Star is under a larger umbrella, the the Native American Rights Fund. This information is simply not readily available. We know the NARF has represented Morning Star. - See more at: http://www.badeagle.com/2010/12/07/soros-has-no-use-for-indians/#sthash.OPvcIj2i.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFKFedEx Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 RFK, let me ask you ... what exactly did you think of that article? I found Joey T on Fox to be interesting, the article was rather meh. What did you think of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Guess who turned it into a slur?? No one did. It was never commonly used as a slur. Todays anti-Redskins call it a slur but are patently wrong (As are the Dictionaries). As has been posted those making the aspersion create the slur that never happened enough to change Redskins into a slur.Uh, we've had posts, in this thread, from actual ES members who have had the word "redskins" used as a racial slur. It's certainly not the word's most common usage. The word ALMOST always refers to the football team. But that doesn't mean that it's NEVER been used as a slur. ---------- Grego, You're seriously quoting an article about "George Soros, the most brilliant man in the world"? It's satire, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xameil Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Guess who turned it into a slur?? No one did. It was never commonly used as a slur. Todays anti-Redskins call it a slur but are patently wrong (As are the Dictionaries). As has been posted those making the aspersion create the slur that never happened enough to change Redskins into a slur. Kinda what I was getting at....MI need to get your panties in a twist at me. I don't agree with changing the name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 ---------- Grego, You're seriously quoting an article about "George Soros, the most brilliant man in the world"? It's satire, right? i knew either soros or yeagley would come up. no, i dont vouch for the man himself, nor the site, only that he has had the same difficulty finding info on harjos organization. its a mystery to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 BTW, I would also urge people supporting the name, not to do so by attacking Harjo, or other name changers. Yes, I personally suspect that she's on a similar plane as people like Jessee Jackson or Al Sharpton. People who have made a profession out of being outraged. BUT, I also observe that the famous Annenberg poll found 9% of Natives thought the name was offensive. That's thousands of people. They aren't all Susan Harjo. She gets lots of face time on TV. But there's thousands of people standing off camera. (Yes, for every one of those thousands, there's 10 who DON'T find it offensive. And they count, too). I'll also point out that some of the "tribe says they are offended by the name" actually are coming from the elected representatives of sometimes major tribes. There are people on the name change side who really are actually offended. They may not be the majority, but they do exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearfeather Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I found Joey T on Fox to be interesting, the article was rather meh. What did you think of it? " Meh " would be generous in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesuve Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Perhaps this has been put up. [yt]40SFqadRTQ0[/yt] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 BTW, I would also urge people supporting the name, not to do so by attacking Harjo, or other name changers. i dont think we talk about her nearly enough. i think we should talk about her statements, which are racist and untrue. i think we should as why her institute doesnt appear to actually employ anybody. she has lead the name change charge since before we were winning super bowls, and, i'm certain, is the main piston driving this propaganda machine. her outrageous stories have gone unchecked for years, and, as a result, have become facts (see- jon stewart show- a show which made its name, in large part, to calling BS on hucksters like her, but let "scalps comes from redskins" go unchecked) heres a made up story about the word squaw that went unchecked, and the result- Of all the support for the negative, the word squaw got its highest claim to defame when Suzan Shown Harjo, a Cheyenne and Hodulgee Muscogee American Indian rights activist appeared on the Oprah Winfrey Show and said on-air that squaw was an Algonquin word meaning vagina and that the word squaw was viewed by many Native people as the “S-word.” Though several journalists since have supported Harjo, the jury is still out when it comes to the meaning of the word squaw. Most historians and linguists appear to be more supportive of a non-derogatory meaning, use of the word is still looked at as offensive to many others. In the years since Harjo’s appearance on the Oprah Winfrey Show, efforts to rename geographical sites swung into full-force. In the first four months of 2008, the U.S. Board on Geographic names renamed 16 valleys creeks and other sites omitting the name squaw. Read more athttp://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/01/31/word-squaw-offensive-or-not-153328 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- heres another gem. it gives some insight into her thought process, i think. Third, a manifestation of this pathology is that the new whiteman (a.k.a., the Disease) must keep us in our place. Socially and economically, this means anywhere below everyone else's rung of the ladder. Physically, it means any place or thing the Disease does not want for itself. No matter how many times a Native nation or person may move to accommodate it, eventually the new whiteman will covet the new place. The Disease will want not only the new place, but will desire what we do there - pray or paint or dance or sing - and will try to control our behavior. Once it controls our behavior, it will assume the reigns of our lives and assume our very identity. Read more athttp://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2004/09/15/whiteman-and-disease-93988 nobodys bothered to challenge her, and this is what happens. of that 10% or so of native americans who say they are offended, i'm betting alot of them are influenced by her rhetoric. i have no problem pointing that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcunning15 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 activists are politically active, politically active activists gravitate to political organizations, political organizations seek things- change in legislation, social justice, ...money....attention? whatever it may be, your point is valid. these tribes likely speak as much for natives as the nation of islam speaks for african americans. further, i'd like to know about some of these organizations. last year, someone had looked into some of them, and many were sketchy- as in, one or two actual members and such. speaking of which- susan harjos own 'morningstar institute' is one i've tried in the past to get info on. several websites i saw listed the number of employees of this outfit as "1 to 2" and listed the $ amount of contracts awarded (it was something like 60k over the last year or two).(check that- 163 k from the smithsonian in 2011, to be completed by 2015- http://government-contracts.insidegov.com/l/1288602/F11CC10488 cant seem to find an official website, which is weird, but i would have to think one exists, outside of this facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Morning-Star-Institute/105374009529391 (funny, the one post on the page is this--- Debbie Fox — 3 starHow insecure is one when they have to attack & fight to have a Football mascot/team Name changed!! REALLY.... "Redskins" c'mon Suzan Harjo being an activist & Pres. of Morning Star Institute in DC I know there has to be better issues to battle than this please!!! Native Americans are Redskins & I myself kinda think it being cool that our Nations Capital named the football team of indigenous people of whom they did wrong..!! I'm a Cherokee & proud of it and thought you would be to. Clearly you need to step back & choose battles that might help us & not such petty bs as this. Grow up & get over it please. what does that mean? i dont know. but, if i'm guessing, i'd say susan harjo believes her 'organization' validates her belief that she speaks for all native americans. clearly, she appears to have a messiah complex. her writings certainly indicate she is and absolute racist. (calling the white man "the disease"). if you are unfamiliar, i encourage you to look into her- the face of the name changers, if there is one. Here is the MorningStar 2013 990 IRS Filing. This has really good information about Susan Harjo's operation http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2013/581/699/2013-581699691-0a7a3749-Z.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 i dont think we talk about her nearly enough. i think we should talk about her statements, which are racist and untrue. i think we should as why her institute doesnt appear to actually employ anybody. Oh, I think countering her arguments is a perfectly correct response. Trying to dig up her tax returns, or attacking her percentage of Native-ness, or things like that? To me, that's attacking the person, not the argument. Here is the MorningStar 2013 990 IRS Filing. This has really good information about Susan Harjo's operation http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2013/581/699/2013-581699691-0a7a3749-Z.pdf "Page not found" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFKFedEx Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 her outrageous stories have gone unchecked for years, and, as a result, have become facts (see- jon stewart show- a show which made its name, in large part, to calling BS on hucksters like her, but let "scalps comes from redskins" go unchecked) Reminds me of the tale of Lone Star Dietz, but that one lasted decades. And how about our fans on the Daily Show who all happened to to be part NA? I believe Cherokee nation was specified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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