The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Boss_Hogg]

Because clearly if a leader has done some shady stuff and gotten caught, it means his opinion on the offensiveness of a name isn't valid at all, right? Ohh, I know, he is greedy, so clearly Snyder paid him off. Yeah, that's what happened! Just like Snyder's charity is buying off NAs by giving them stuff. I mean, who just goes around and gives people stuff? Yeah right, clearly it's all just bribery. 

 

Oh, oh, oh, and those code talkers, they were bribed too. They are just Uncle Tomahawks as UnWise Mike racistly coined. In fact, any NA that supports the name is not a "real" NA, just like Harjo said. They don't care about how "real" NAs are offended and are being marginalized, so let's offend them and marginalize them by saying they are traitors and don't count as real NAs. 

 

Clearly ANY NAs that show support for the team, it's because Snyder bought them off and he's just showing them off. If that weren't true, it would hurt my cause of saying the name is offensive to NAs and I care about NAs, even though I still support the team that offends them. 

-------------------------

 

Sorry, but now I'm starting to get offended by you and other name changers disqualifying NAs who show support for the name. They are people too and are deserving of respect. Those of us in support of the name have dedicated hours and hours to discussing the matter, doing research on it, rather than just saying it isn't offensive and leaving it at that. I have not really seen any name changers concede that it is a mixed issue and acknowledge that there are valid reasons why so many NAs do support the name. Instead it's a game of pretend to fit an extreme POV that 90% of NAs ARE offended, and that aren't are either paid off and/or not "real." It's a disgusting common occurrence from people claiming they care about NAs and frankly I'm sick of it.

 

Plus, it's further proof that if the name ever did change, it wouldn't change their attitudes about the team or how they talk about the team. 

 

Ben Shelly was trounced in the October Navajo elections. The man reason(s) being corruption.

 

I do believe that he sat with Dan Snyder on his own accord; however the reason wasn't because he's a fan of the team, it had to do with money and merchandising. 

 

How else do you explain Dan Snyder's Original Americans Foundation (OAF)?

 

http://nonprofitquarterly.org/2014/03/26/three-objections-to-dan-snyder-s-creation-of-the-washington-redskins-original-americans-foundation/

 

https://www.football.com/en-us/washington-redskins-the-original-americans-foundation-falls-silent/

 

There are absolutely natives who like the team and more power to them. Hell, i'm friends with one on facebook. 

 

But name one tribe or native association that has come out in support of our name...just one.

 

I like you Elka, in fact you're one of my favorite posters on ES...but I believe this board has an "ignore" function and I won't be offended if you choose to use it.

[Spearfeather]

 

 

 

 

 

 

So how many federally recognized tribes need to come out against our name or mascot before we listen? 1, 5, 15, 25?

 

The Red Mesa school is 360 miles from Glendale, AZ (home of AZ cardinals). It's unlikely most of those kids would've had the means to make the game especially since some lack proper living necessities.

 

I think it's very telling that all Navajo students and Mr. Shelly wore matching hats. It just proves that none of them had Skins gear before they came to the game. 

 

As for the YouTube interviews, please find some that aren't sponsored by "Redskins Facts" 

 

The code talkers deserve all the respect and kudos they can get. But you have to admit that the timing of that event was highly suspect.

 

We have listened. You seem to equate " listening " with " changing the name ". 

And, since you showed us a list of tribes against the name, I asked you what percentage of tribes did that represent.

 

Them wearing new Redskins hats even if they were provided by the team, in no way proves that they didn't own any Redskins gear. 

And, they don't have to be lifelong Washington Redskins fans for their opinion and presence to be legitimate.

 

O.K. so the Interviews are on the Redskins Facts website. Which proves what exactly ?

CNN, MSNBC, ABC, ESPN, even everyone's favorite news channel could have interviewed them.  Why weren't they there ?

 

Again, with the codetalkers.  Suspect of what ?

[Patrick Evidente]

I still don't understand how a school on an Indian reservation named the "Redskins" doesn't put an end to this argument each and every time?

Selective outrage from the anti-name folks.

[Boss_Hogg]

I still don't understand how a school on an Indian reservation named the "Redskins" doesn't put an end to this argument each and every time?

 

One could argue that a school with a 100% native american student body should have agency over a controversial word about their race.

 

I think it's telling us that they were given free gear by the team because they are likely poor (43.5% live below poverty, 23% live more than 50% below the poverty rate). But it's nice to see that you now think that the name isn't so offensive that NAs can't be bought off with a free game and hat. 

 

Admit it, anything Snyder does, at all, that involves NAs will only be discounted by you and other name changers as bribery. Again, for this stupid conspiracy theory to work, it would mean that despite you all believing the name is so offensive to so many NAs, NAs are willing to ignore how offended they are and be seen publicly with team gear on all for free tickets and gear. 

 

Owner's team name gets labeled as offensive to NAs, but there are many NAs who support the name, there are NA high schools using the name too, and yet you and other name changers think it's deceitful when Snyder wants to give the spotlight to NAs who support the name? Really it's just a BS attempt by you all to discount the opinions of NAs on the sole basis that they don't agree with you. Way to marginalize!

 

where's the data that suggests many natives aren't offended? Also, see my post a few ages back about the annenberg survey. 

 

Also, high schools around the country are dropping Indian mascots faster than ever, the most recent being the Lancaster HS in upstate NY after a native american high school refused to play them because of their team name "Redskins"

 

 

We have listened. You seem to equate " listening " with " changing the name ". 

And, since you showed us a list of tribes against the name, I asked you what percentage of tribes did that represent.

 

Them wearing new Redskins hats even if they were provided by the team, in no way proves that they didn't own any Redskins gear. 

And, they don't have to be lifelong Washington Redskins fans for their opinion and presence to be legitimate.

 

O.K. so the Interviews are on the Redskins Facts website. Which proves what exactly ?

CNN, MSNBC, ABC, ESPN, even everyone's favorite news channel could have interviewed them.  Why weren't they there ?

 

Again, with the codetalkers.  Suspect of what ?

 

Redskins Facts was created by a crisis management group in NOVA. I would like to see more videos from non-team sponsored sites. Also, it would be nice if more tribes came out to support our name. As of now we have zero. 

 

The timing was suspect...I was at the game with the code talkers, it was a cold November night and our team had just gotten back from Minnesota were thousands of people marched outside to protest. 

[Spearfeather]

 

 

 

But name one tribe or native association that has come out in support of our name...just one.

 

 

 

What have the Patawomeck and Pueblo of Zuni said about the team ?

 

[Boss_Hogg]

 

 

What have the Patawomeck and Pueblo of Zuni said about the team ?

 

 

 

IDK what have they said? Do they support the name? If so more power to them. 

[Patrick Evidente]

So if Pekin High School Chinks had 100% Asian student body, it would be comparable to the case of Red Mesa Redskins?

[Larry]

I still don't understand how a school on an Indian reservation named the "Redskins" doesn't put an end to this argument each and every time?

Well, 90% of Natives saying the name isn't offensive wasn't good enough.

[Spearfeather]

One could argue that a school with a 100% native american student body should have agency over a controversial word about their race.

 

 

where's the data that suggests many natives aren't offended? Also, see my post a few ages back about the annenberg survey. 

 

 

 

 

 

Redskins Facts was created by a crisis management group in NOVA. I would like to see more videos from non-team sponsored sites. Also, it would be nice if more tribes came out to support our name. As of now we have zero. 

 

The timing was suspect...I was at the game with the code talkers, it was a cold November night and our team had just gotten back from Minnesota were thousands of people marched outside to protest. 

 

" Redskins Facts created by crises management " ( Good, and if any other team was in the same situation they would probably do the same thing.)   ..... So that somehow delegitimizes the opinions expressed in the videos ?

You can't be serious.

 

You'd like to see more done by independent sources. Yeah, we all would. They don't seem interested.

[TheGoodBits]

So if Pekin High School Chinks had 100% Asian student body, it would be comparable to the case of Red Mesa Redskins?

If "Chink" was a term that originated by Asians, wasn't historically derogatory, and wasn't viewed as derogatory by the vast majority of Asians today, sure. But I prefer to dwell in reality rather than imaginationland.

[Taylor703]

Well, 90% of Natives saying the name isn't offensive wasn't good enough.

A part of me wonders if Harjo and Halbritter actually want the name changed? That may seem silly but this is giving them tons of attention, what happens to that attention once the name is gone? There is no other entity as large as the Redskins that they can attack that will boost their popularity or bring them massive amounts of attention.

[Patrick Evidente]

If "Chink" was a term that originated by Asians, wasn't historically derogatory, and wasn't viewed as derogatory by the vast majority of Asians today, sure. But I prefer to dwell in reality rather than imaginationland.

OK. But I'm just confused why Red Mesa Redskins get a pass on all this.

[Boss_Hogg]

" Redskins Facts created by crises management " ( Good, and if any other team was in the same situation they would probably do the same thing.)   ..... So that somehow delegitimizes the opinions expressed in the videos ?

You can't be serious.

 

You'd like to see more done by independent sources. Yeah, we all would. They don't seem interested.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/07/the_washington_nfl_team_wants_you_to_think_there_s_a_grassroots_movement.html

[Spearfeather]

 

 

 

The timing was suspect...I was at the game with the code talkers, it was a cold November night and our team had just gotten back from Minnesota were thousands of people marched outside to protest. 

 

So was the timing suspect also when last November ( Military Family appreciation month ) when the Eastern Band of Cherokee were honored ?:

 

[RFKFedEx]

What ever happened to OAF? It had such a big debut last year. 2015 has been all crickets. 

[Boss_Hogg]

So was the timing suspect also when last November ( Military Family appreciation month ) when the Eastern Band of Cherokee were honored ?:

https:

Remember our game against the Vikings in early November 2014? There were 5,000 indigenous people protesting our name.

[Spearfeather]

^{Yes. I notice you use the organizers highest estimate, but yes, and what does that have to do with your skepticism of Native American fans attending the Redskins - Cardinals game, or you saying there were no tribes that had shown support for the Redskins, or whatever you were implying with the " tags on the coat's ".}

 

^{Is it that you believe anything done by the Redskins involving Native Americans should be looked at as suspect or illegitimate ?}

^{Should the Redskins not respond at all, and have no relationship with Native Americans ?}

[Boss_Hogg]

What ever happened to OAF? It had such a big debut last year. 2015 has been all crickets.

Further proof that OAF was created to buy support/silence.

OAF was very active in the spring and summer of 2014 but they haven't done anything in 2015 which ironically is when the name change debate has simmered considerably.

^{Yes. I notice you use the organizers highest estimate, but yes, and what does that have to do with your skepticism of Native American fans attending the Redskins - Cardinals game, or you saying their were no tribes that had shown support for the Redskins, or whatever you were implying with the " tags on the coat's ".}

^{Is it that you believe anything done by the Redskins involving Native Americans should be looked at as suspect or illegitimate ?}

^{Should the Redskins not respond at all, and have no relationship with Native Americans ?}

But which tribes or Native American associations have publicly come out to support our name?

You mentioned two tribes but I couldn't find anything definitive about their opinions on the team name.

I did however find this from the the director of the Zuni Museum and Heritage Center:

https://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/08/11/we-are-not-redskins

He characterized OAF as part of a "spin doctoring" campaign.

[Spearfeather]

He characterized OAF as part of a "spin doctoring" campaign.

 

 

"I appreciated your sincerity to learn about our culture and the real-life issues we face on a daily basis," Pueblo of Zuni Governor Arlen Quetawki told us after we toured his reservation. "I look forward to working together with you to improve the lives of Native Americans in any way possible."

 

 

 

If I was Snyder I'd keep the workings of OAF quiet too, The media showed him no mercy

[Boss_Hogg]

"I appreciated your sincerity to learn about our culture and the real-life issues we face on a daily basis," Pueblo of Zuni Governor Arlen Quetawki told us after we toured his reservation. "I look forward to working together with you to improve the lives of Native Americans in any way possible."

 

 

 

If I was Snyder I'd keep the workings of OAF quiet too, The media showed him no mercy

 

That's a nice quote from Mr. Quetawki and I'm sure he was sincere. But what's his tribe's official stance on the topic?

 

But we still don't have an actual number of tribes and organizations who support our name.

 

And keeping OAF quiet goes against what Dan wrote in his letter to the fans in 2014:

 

The Washington Redskins Original Americans Foundation will serve as a living, breathing legacy – and an ongoing reminder – of the heritage and tradition that is the Washington Redskins. I'm glad to be able to launch this vital initiative today.

 

[Larry]

deleted

[Burgold]

 

 

But name one tribe or native association that has come out in support of our name...just one.

If you want just one, the Patawomeck tribe and chief came out with a very strong endorsement. Even said that if a name change was demanded we could call our team after them.

[Burgold]

A part of me wonders if Harjo and Halbritter actually want the name changed? That may seem silly but this is giving them tons of attention, what happens to that attention once the name is gone? There is no other entity as large as the Redskins that they can attack that will boost their popularity or bring them massive amounts of attention.

With Halbritter esp. there's good reason to think that. Supposedly, he is stealing from his tribe, they say he doesn't represent them, and has constantly screwed his people over.  More, have you ever seen the branding of the cigarettes he sells? 

 

It's basically the Redskins logo that he finds so much more offensive. There's very good reason to think that his anti-Redskins crusade is being done as a distraction to shield him from the attention his own actions warrant.

[Spearfeather]

 

 

And keeping OAF quiet goes against what Dan wrote in his letter to the fans in 2014:

 

No, it doesn't

[s0crates]

I still don't understand how a school on an Indian reservation named the "Redskins" doesn't put an end to this argument each and every time?

Maybe the same reason rappers using the N-word doesn't make it okay for white people to use it?