The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[grego]

Just in my personal experience, every single time I've seen someone announce that thousands of people are all thinking exactly the same thing, and that he possesses knowledge of what every single one of them is thinking, he's been an arrogant gasbag.

Now, me, I can't claim to possess absolute certainty as to other people's motives. but I actually find it hard to believe that people like Harjo have been beating their heads against this wall, for 40 years, and has never once asked for any money whatsoever, only for the team to quit using the name, because they really have a secret plan to get money out of it.

It's certainly possible. But me, I tend to assume that they actually feel that they're on the side of rightousness. (I think they're wrong. Deluded, in fact. But I think it's a sincere delusion.)

(And Hallbritter? Yep, I think he's after money and power. That's simply the impression I get, from looking at everything else he's done.)

But, more importantly, I think it's absolutely inconceivable (I probably shouldn't use that word, following my previous post) that the hundreds of people surveyed by the Annenberg poll, lied about being offended in a telephone public opinion poll, ten years ago, because they thought they'd get money, if they did.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that pretty much every single one of them, who said they were offended, said it because yes, they really were offended.

(Just like I assume that the ones who said they weren't offended, were being honest, too.)

 

 

i agree with you. 

 

harjo is a true believer, no doubt. and halbritter is after money and power. no question.

 

i do believe those hundreds of people were offended. from everything i can tell (when they give a reason for being offended- i know you disagree with justifying offense) they say they are offended because of the scalping story. 

 

(another reason given is the general cultural appropriation which is where blackhorse is going with the chiefs, which i think should get more discussion than a fake story that keeps getting repeated until it seems to become fact)

[Ax]

Explain to me what the "money grab" part of this is without making some general "Oh...you know how the courts work" argument out of a bad 1960s drugstore novel.

Step 1: Invent racists intent.

Step 2: Shreik it loud enough, and long enough, to work the PC "Like" crowd into a virtual lather.

Step 3: Force change with support of those who follow the belief that every child should get a trophy.

Step 4: If Step 3: is successful, sue for restitution, damages, mental anguish, etc...

Step 5: Pat yourselves on the back for doing absolutely nothing to help the plight of First Americans. But YOU feel good.

Step 6: Look for, or create, the next injustice where there is a dollar to be made.

 

[planter]

It would be a relief if Native Americans were not offended by our mascot, although I am not entirely convinced that is the case.

I'll list three reasons for my uncertainty:

(1) A recent study found that 67% of Native Americans agreed with the statement "The Redskins team name is a racial or racist word and symbol."

sources:

http://cips.csusb.edu/docs/PressRelease.pdf

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/06/04/67-percent-native-americans-say-redskins-offensive-155143

(2) These tribes have issued statements of opposition to our team's name:

Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians

Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

Comanche Nation of Oklahoma

The Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation (Washington)

Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians (Michigan)

Hoh Indian Tribe

Inter Tribal Council of Arizona

Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes

Juaneño Band of Mission Indians (California)

Little River Band of Ottawa Indians (Michigan)

Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians, Gun Lake Tribe (Michigan)

Menominee Tribe of Indians (Wisconsin)

Oneida Indian Nation (New York)

Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin

Navajo Nation Council

Penobscot Nation

Poarch Band of Creek Indians

Samish Indian Nation (Washington)

Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians (Michigan)

Shoshone-Bannock Tribes (Idaho)

Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (North Dakota)

The Three Affiliated Tribes of the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation (North Dakota)

United South and Eastern Tribes (USET)

(3) These Native American organizations have issued statements of opposition to our team's name:

Advocates for American Indian Children (California)

American Indian Mental Health Association (Minnesota)

American Indian Movement

American Indian Opportunities Industrialization Center of San Bernardino County

American Indian Student Services at the Ohio State University

American Indian High Education Consortium

American Indian College Fund

Americans for Indian Opportunity

Association on American Indian Affairs

Buncombe County Native American Inter-tribal Association (North Carolina)

Capitol Area Indian Resources (Sacramento, CA)

Concerned American Indian Parents (Minnesota)

Council for Indigenous North Americans (University of Southern Maine)

Eagle and Condor Indigenous Peoples’ Alliance

First Peoples Worldwide

Fontana Native American Indian Center, Inc. (California)

Governor’s Interstate Indian Council

Greater Tulsa Area Indian Affairs Commission

Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council (Wisconsin)

HONOR – Honor Our Neighbors Origins and Rights

Kansas Association for Native American Education

Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs

Medicine Wheel Inter-tribal Association (Louisiana)

Minnesota Indian Education Association

National Congress of American Indians (NCAI)

National Indian Child Welfare Association

National Indian Education Association

National Indian Youth Council

National Native American Law Student Association

Native American Caucus of the California Democratic Party

Native American Finance Officers Association (NAFOA)

Native American Journalists Association

Native American Indian Center of Central Ohio

Native American Journalists Association

Native American Rights Fund (NARF)

Native Voice Network

Nebraska Commission on Indian Affairs

Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi (Michigan)

North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs

North Dakota Indian Education Association

Office of Native American Ministry, Diocese of Grand Rapids (Michigan)

Ohio Center for Native American Affairs

San Bernardino/Riverside Counties Native American Community Council

Seminole Nation of Oklahoma

Society of Indian Psychologists of the Americas

Southern California Indian Center

St. Cloud State University – American Indian Center

Tennessee Chapter of the National Coalition for the Preservation of Indigenous Cultures

Tennessee Commission of Indian Affairs

Tennessee Native Veterans Society

Tulsa Indian Coalition Against Racism

The Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation

Unified Coalition for American Indian Concerns, Virginia

The United Indian Nations of Oklahoma

Virginia American Indian Cultural Resource Center

Wisconsin Indian Education Association

WIEA “Indian” Mascot and Logo Taskforce (Wisconsin)

Woodland Indian Community Center-Lansing (Michigan)

Youth “Indian” Mascot and Logo Task force (Wisconsin)

Can you tell me why I should dismiss all this?

Excellent research but dont't confuse us with facts.

The name will go. Help us keep the logo and fight song (with maybe one word altered :-)

[steve09ru]

It would be a relief if Native Americans were not offended by our mascot, although I am not entirely convinced that is the case.

 

I'll list three reasons for my uncertainty:

 

(1) A recent study found that 67% of Native Americans agreed with the statement "The Redskins team name is a racial or racist word and symbol." 

 

sources:

http://cips.csusb.edu/docs/PressRelease.pdf

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/06/04/67-percent-native-americans-say-redskins-offensive-155143

 

(2) These tribes have issued statements of opposition to our team's name:

 

(3) These Native American organizations have issued statements of opposition to our team's name:

 

Can you tell me why I should dismiss all this?

 

1.) That first poll asks a whopping 390 NA's (or less than 1/4th of a percent of the total population of NA's)

 

2.) That's 23 tribes out of 562 (or 4% of tribes)

 

3.) Unable to location the total number of organizations to compare of the %

[Bang]

Hey, the United States leadership issues official stances all the time,.
 

And they have what,, a 12% approval rating? Pick any issue at all that they speak for us on and half the country disagrees with them, no matter what it is.

 

Don't show me organizations. Show me people.

 

Shouldn't be terribly difficult.

A poll would do.

 

~Bang

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Step 1: Invent racists intent.

Step 2: Shreik it loud enough, and long enough, to work the PC "Like" crowd into a virtual lather.

Step 3: Force change with support of those who follow the belief that every child should get a trophy.

Step 4: If Step 3: is successful, sue for restitution, damages, mental anguish, etc...

Step 5: Pat yourselves on the back for doing absolutely nothing to help the plight of First Americans. But YOU feel good.

Step 6: Look for, or create, the next injustice where there is a dollar to be made.

 

Step 4 works if you have no idea how things like "standing" and "damanges" work. So....good list. Solid list.

[grego]

1.) That first poll asks a whopping 390 NA's (or less than 1/4th of a percent of the total population of NA's)

 

2.) That's 23 tribes out of 562 (or 4% of tribes)

 

3.) Unable to location the total number of organizations to compare of the %

 

 

 

you mean, research actually involves looking into things, rather than repeating them?

 

weird.

[Larry]

1.) That first poll asks a whopping 390 NA's (or less than 1/4th of a percent of the total population of NA's)

Untrue.

It asked 98 "Indians" (his choice of words), and 292 "Other".

All 98 of which (actually, all 380 of which) were assembled at one of two political gatherings, which the person designing the poll hand picked, and won't identify.

(And then asked them if the name was "racial or racist", and counted every "yes" vote as "racist".)

(Annenberg surveyed a bit less than 800, randomly selected, across 48 states.)

[planter]

Why do people keep throwing out the Vikings and Celtics? Is there a Viking Defense League I am unaware of.

He He. Good one.

Here's our case. NFL logos are not insults. The Viking, Celtic, Braves, and Chiefs names and logos are "tributes meant to inspire" the Fans and Team.

The players enter the stadium or later begin to rally....the Band cranks up HTTR (We're) "braves on the warpath" ... Those words are inspirational - and a tribute to the bravery and fighting skills of the NA.

P.S. The owners of the Chiefs, Braves, Seahawks, and others now have a vested interest in getting this resolved ASAP. These guys are NOT wallflowers; they're on the phone with each other,the Commish,and Snyder.

Save logo and fightsong by finding more respectful name. Don't let Synder botch it.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The players enter the stadium or later begin to rally....the Band cranks up HTTR (We're) "braves on the warpath" ... Those words are inspirational - and a tribute to the bravery and fighting skills of the NA.

 

 

Then why did they change the lyrics?

 

Hail to the Redskins!

Hail, victory!

Braves on the warpath!

Fight for Old D.C.!

Scalp 'em, swamp 'um

We will take 'um big score

Read 'um, Weep 'um, touchdown

We want heap more

Fight on, fight on, till you have won

Sons of Washington

Rah! Rah! Rah!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

And again up come the Buffalo Bills,,  a name honoring a man who earned his everlasting fame by enabling the systematic annihilation of the ttribes.

In fact, Buffalo Bill and his methods WERE the SYSTEM that was the basis of the 'systematic annihilation".

Kill the herds. Deprive the Native of food and shelter, make him move more and more just to eat. Take his land.

Systematic.

 

 

Oh but hey.. the Redskins name is so offensive that people on this board who are so concerned over how it makes the Natives feel could not care less about the Buffalo Bills, a team named directly after the man who did so much to destroy them that they gave him a Medal of Honor for shooting tens of thousands of animals .. just so the natives who had subsisted on them for centuries no longer could.  And given that the Bills seem to skate through each of these debates, I believe this ignorance is complete throughout the Kardashian Kulture that shakes their facebook fists so mightily at the Redskins.

 

 

How can anyone take that seriously? it is mind bogglingly ignorant, or unbelievably hypocritical,, i can't decide which.

Probably a nice fat American mix of both.

 

~Bang

 

Sadly, the majority of this country isn't capable and/or willing to drill down into a topic. Buffalo Bills seems fine on the surface and has a cute picture of a buffalo on the helmet, so there's no issue there. Move on to the low-hanging fruit. That's our society. 

[RFKFedEx]

Likely for the same reason the band quietly retired their feather headdresses.

[planter]

Then why did they change the lyrics?

Hail to the Redskins!

Hail, victory!

Braves on the warpath!

Fight for Old D.C.!

Scalp 'em, swamp 'um

We will take 'um big score

Read 'um, Weep 'um, touchdown

We want heap more

Fight on, fight on, till you have won

Sons of Washington

Rah! Rah! Rah!

Sorry, could you rephrase the question? I'm embarassed to admit I don't know all the fightsong words. Are there older versions as well?

[Ax]

If we are forced to change the name, then change it all. Since the history dies with it.

 

Absolutely no connection to First Americans.

Lose the logo. Anybody who thinks we'd get to keep it anyway should get off the crack.

Lose Washington. Finish the connection to The People's Republic of Maryland.

 

Or better yet, move the team to LA.

Make the new logo a Zombie, to rake in the cash on all that silliness.

And welcome the Los Angeles Deadskins.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Sorry, could you rephrase the question? I'm embarassed to admit I don't know all the fightsong words. Are there older versions as well?

 

The question is, "If the song is meant to honor Native Americans, why did they change the lyrics?"

[planter]

Let me make one thing perfectly clear...(who said that before me ?)

I believe that most of our fans who want to retain the

name "Redskins" are traditionalists NOT racists.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Let me make one thing perfectly clear...(who said that before me ?)

I believe that most of our fans who want to retain the

name "Redskins" are traditionalists NOT racists.

 

I agree completely. Totally.

 

So, why did they change the lyrics?

[Larry]

I agree completely. Totally.

 

So, why did they change the lyrics?

So the fans would have to buy new programs, to find out the new words.

[skins island connection]

 Interesting to see all of the NA associations listed, and i'd bet a 6 pk that you could pick any single member and find they belong to many of these associations, so it clouds the reality window a bit, especially when one can spread their viewpoints across many platforms.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear...(who said that before me ?)

I believe that most of our fans who want to retain the
name "Redskins" are traditionalists NOT racists.

 

 Or maybe they're just sick and tired of this PC world where super minority groups dictate how everyone sees or hears things.

[skins island connection]

Sadly, the majority of this country isn't capable and/or willing to drill down into a topic. Buffalo Bills seems fine on the surface and has a cute picture of a buffalo on the helmet, so there's no issue there. Move on to the low-hanging fruit. That's our society. 

 

 Unless it directly affects them, you are right. The old saying 'if you do not stand for something you will fall for anything' has been taken to extremes. Society is drifting, no, steamrolling into a recluse paranoid and scared lifestyle, where words must be thought out carefully before spoken for fear of repercussions.

Everyone can find something they are offended by, so does the line start to the left of NAs?

God this world is starting to suck.

 

Being the Chiefs and Indians have been thrown into the fray, I fully expect to see Mexico file a lawsuit against the Houston Texans, demanding they change their name to the 'Tejans', being we stole the land from Mexico, right?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 Unless it directly affects them, you are right. The old saying 'if you do not stand for something you will fall for anything' has been taken to extremes. Society is drifting, no, steamrolling into a recluse paranoid and scared lifestyle, where words must be thought out carefully before spoken for fear of repercussions.

Everyone can find something they are offended by, so does the line start to the left of NAs?

God this world is starting to suck.

 

What would you like to say that you fear saying?

[skins island connection]

What would you like to say that you fear saying?

 

 Thats for me to know and you to find out !

 

 Actually, nothing, to be honest. I do not feel I need to speak my mind openly demanding approval or sympathy, but I can think all I want.

 The NAs stirring this pot should heed those words.

[Fan since a Fetus]

(1) A recent study found that 67% of Native Americans agreed with the statement "The Redskins team name is a racial or racist word and symbol." 

 

Can you tell me why I should dismiss all this?

For one thing, it is a confusing question. A word can be racial and racist, however, just because a word is racial doesn't mean it is racist. That question does not separate the two as it should.

Of course the Redskins is racial, however, I do not believe they are racist.

Also, if you believe it is offensive or racist, how in the world could you claim to be a Skins fan? At least, that is my assumption since you are here. If you are not a Redskins fan, why are you here? Yes, the message board is set up for debate, but you can get that anywhere online. I wouldn't visit or root for anything I find offensive. I don't go to KKK boards and chum it up with them because I think they are pieces of crap and I find them stupid and offensive.

[autoidiodyssey]

For one thing, it is a confusing question. A word can be racial and racist, however, just because a word is racial doesn't mean it is racist. That question does not separate the two as it should.

 

 

That is a poorly worded question. It should be "Do you find the name of the Washington Redskins to be offensive." Yes or no. Pretty simple. Anything more complicated than that seems like someone trying to trick or confuse the respondents. How many of the 67% were voting for racial but are not offended and don't think it is racist?

[pjfootballer]

Sorry, could you rephrase the question? I'm embarassed to admit I don't know all the fightsong words. Are there older versions as well?

Those are the original words, but he forgot "fight for ole Dixie."