Brian Orakpo: Current most over hyped Redskin? Or as good as advertised?

[Taylor703]

GHH-

I've stated my opinion and my feelings on the Orakpo situation, I don't think I've made personal attacks to anyone who disagrees however...

[MrJL]

Kerrigan is the epitome of average. Love the dude but he is.

 

 

of course he is.  Unless you talk to the people who like him more than Rak

 

okay, so we have like 30 mil before we cut anyone

 

We spend 13 mill on Rak

 

That leaves 17 mil to sign about 4 LB(two ILBs whether Riley is one of them or not, two backups our current signed guys have injuries and or no experience) and 3 DBs (can't just give Minnifield, Crawford, or Thomas jobs, Merriweather's contract voids, Biggers and Doughty FAs) and 1 or 2 WRs(Morgan voids, Moss FA, Hank recovering from injury).  Those are spots where we need bodies to even compete.  There are 6 draft picks but you can't expect all of them to fill those spots.

 

That's without looking at improving either line or backup TE.  From there you'd be stuck removing people to replace them most likely.  

[Taylor703]

I've said before I would walk away from Rak if he refuses to accept anything less than 13mil. 11 mil is what I consider reasonable for Rak but I wouldn't go any higher.

[MrJL]

What if he goes to one of the other 30 teams?

This isn't a shot at you but every time I see a comment like "at least we're not Oakland" all I can think is we were once the envy of the NFL and this is what we're reduced to? If this is what we're hanging our hats on, things really are that bad.

 

 

we were never the envy of the NFL.  The 9ers were bigger in the 80's in the NFC and people always expected Elway or Marino to pick their teams up in the AFC.  We were one of the best but never given proper respect.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

$13 MILLION?!?!?!?!?!

 

Admittedly I'm not breaking down film or crunching numbers but just from what my eyes are telling me, he's just not that kind of player. Sean Taylor is the only Redskins player in recent history I would allow to take up that much of our cap.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

In the five years that Orakpo has been in the league, the Redskins played 81 games. There've only been 27 where he recorded at least one full sack.

 

Damarcus Ware recorded at least one full sack in 56 games during the five year stretch from 2007-2011

[elkabong82]

Raiders or Redskins ... seems we are so overflowing with talent we dont bother making offers to our guys... but hey theres lots of other peoples scraps to get excited over right ?

 

Hall, Baker, Robinson already re-signed, in talks with Moss. Do they not count?

 

How many times do these points have to get brought up: Orakpo is asking for a crazy big contract that he isn't worth, that contract will hurt the team in the future and limit us a lot this year, he'll cost 1/3 of available cap space, he's 28, has an injury history, and is not a game changer. The D has done it's best without him. Losing him won't hurt us if we get better in other areas, which we can by no having 1/3 of the cap tied up in 1 player.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Hall, Baker, Robinson already re-signed, in talks with Moss. Do they not count?

 

How many times do these points have to get brought up: Orakpo is asking for a crazy big contract that he isn't worth, that contract will hurt the team in the future and limit us a lot this year, he'll cost 1/3 of available cap space, he's 28, has an injury history, and is not a game changer. The D has done it's best without him. Losing him won't hurt us if we get better in other areas, which we can by no having 1/3 of the cap tied up in 1 player.

 

It wouldn't just be that related to this years cap space. 

 

You'd be tying up a very big chunk of future cap room in one area when you consider Kerrigan's gona' be up for a sizable increase going forward and maybe another FA or Rob Jackson upped too. 

 

Heck of a lot of cap room in one area without one true stud between them. 

 

Hail. 

[grego]

He was average or below this year but he was hurt. I think he's a pretty good football player when he's healthy.

 

 

agreed. he denied being hurt this season but there was an obvious dropoff in his game early in the season and he was never the same. then he has a procedure done right after the season. 

 

hes very good, imo, when healthy.

[Jacoby6644]

Irrelevant of whether you like Rak or not, think he is overrated or not there is one simple fact: in a 3-4 defense besides NT your outside backers are the next most important piece. Pass rush, run support, coverage. They are needed for all of it. And you need at least one good one to help the one on the opposite side out, creating mismatches and opportunities ultimately for both.

So I ask this: if not Rak, then who? I don't think you find him in free agency which means draft. At 34 you won't be drafting a premiere pass rushing LB.

I don't necessarily think we should pony up top 3 money for him, but I think he needs to be tagged. I just don't think you can let him walk. MHO

[MrJL]

.

So I ask this: if not Rak, then who? I

I believe most people in favor of letting Rak go say re-sign Rob Jackson and let Kerrigan do more pass rushing

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I believe most people in favor of letting Rak go say re-sign Rob Jackson and let Kerrigan do more pass rushing

 

And give Brandon Jenkins his head and let his talent develop at this level. 

 

Hail. 

[elkabong82]

It wouldn't just be that related to this years cap space. 

 

You'd be tying up a very big chunk of future cap room in one area when you consider Kerrigan's gona' be up for a sizable increase going forward and maybe another FA or Rob Jackson upped too. 

 

Heck of a lot of cap room in one area without one true stud between them. 

 

Hail. 

 

Exactly. Reasonably, a new contract for Kerrigan should cost around 5-6 mil per year, backloaded so 4 the first year. You think his agent will let him settle for that when Orakpo just became the top paid at his position and isn't elite? No way. The agent will knock it up to 8 per year to stay, same will happen with other players and, as I just showed in the FA thread with cap number allocation on each team's roster, we won't be able to afford to re-sign our own then.

 

Orakpo's play is not elite and not enough to mask the weaknesses at other roster spots that his contract would create at 12-13 mil per season. We've actually seen this with him and the defense so it's not just speculation or hyperbole. We've literally seen that his play is not good enough to mask weaknesses elsewhere on the D. The D is still bad with him. So giving him a contract that will create weaknesses elsewhere is ludicrous.

[Jacoby6644]

Problem with Jackson is that I think he feels he is better than he is and will go looking for starter money and I don't think he is worth 5-8 million a year. I like Jenkins but he is a backup at this point. Kerrigan is good, but i don't think he'll get better with average talent opposite him. The defense needs to get better. I get that there are other holes that need to be filled. I just don't think letting your best defensive player walk is the way to improve.

[SWFLSkins]

The Redskins are not good enough to tie up that much cap in one player, and Rak is not good enough to tie up that much cap if the Redskins were good enough. Sorry, love the guy, but the record is what it is. The D can use some major upgrades all over, and not just at OLBer. 

[elkabong82]

Problem with Jackson is that I think he feels he is better than he is and will go looking for starter money and I don't think he is worth 5-8 million a year. I like Jenkins but he is a backup at this point. Kerrigan is good, but i don't think he'll get better with average talent opposite him. The defense needs to get better. I get that there are other holes that need to be filled. I just don't think letting your best defensive player walk is the way to improve.

 

As I showed in the post above, if your best defensive player is asking for such a large contract that it will significantly impact the quality of the rest of the roster then his level of play HAS to mask the weaknesses of other players. We know for a fact Orakpo's level of play does not do that. We have to let him walk unless he's willing to come down from 12-13 mil per season. He doesn't have the kind of impact that would warrant such a contract.

 

Best player on a bad defense isn't a great selling point anyway. D has done well without him. He's a good player, but does not have the impact that would justify the contract he wants.

[mastdark81]

#1 When did us Redskins fans get so bothered by the amount of money a guy will get? Eric Shafer has worked magic for years and we have never been in cap hell (outside of last year which was league bs).the NFL does not have any guaranteed contracts and they have a cap that increases every single year. Only time I would have a concern if resigning Rak would stop us from getting another player. Sadly free agency is not the same. We gon win by building thru the draft not free agency.

The number that Rak wants is actually fair. Stop comparing his numbers to Clay (whos terrible against the run and not elite either). Last few years ive seen of Clay is him gettin shut the hell out by Joe Staley aNot to mention Clay signed his contract in '13. The cap went up 10mil this year. Cap go up then your asking price go up.

Wait til elite players like Aldon Smith and JJ Watt requests 15 mil per year when their contract comes up. Raks 10-12 per year voidable asking price will look just about right then.

As the NFLs revenue continue to grow so will each player. Get use to and to my point do not worry bout the numbers just sign the best players. At the moment Rak is the top guy out there as far as linebackers.

[mastdark81]

Brian Orakpo is a sometimin pro bowler and not elite we all agree! Lay off the hate tho. Man cannot do one thing right according to the fans and the media.

Heres the hate:

He doesnt play big in big games....my answer = we dont have many big games, it takes a team to get there. Only defensive players that stepped up this year were from the Seahawks, everyone else fell short. DeMarcus Ware is a hall of famer and havent done squat the last 3 years to push the Cowgirls to the playoffs...

He gets all his sacks against the Raiders...my answer: so does every other passrusher. Von Miller and Tamba Hali has the raiders twice! Are they discredited?

His only big play int was created by Reed doughty...my answer: true but he caught it (see c.rogers) and ran all the way to the endzone. He coulda fell lol.

He doesnt have many moves...my answer: hes not a ninja. more often than you think Haslett is calling contain which doesnt allow for alot of flexibility. Besides its not about moves, more ya first step, punch, and ability to get in that 2nd gear.

[elkabong82]

The Cowboys didn't worry about the numbers, now they're in cap hell and have to release good players and also won't be able to improve their roster. 

 

Rak will stop us from getting other players, including re-signing our own.

 

Because of the salary cap, a team can only really afford 2 players with cap hits in the double-digits, one of those being their franchise QB. For us that will be RG3 and Trent Williams. So if we had a 3rd player that high up, like Rak wants to be, he'd have to be an elite player that masks the weak play of others because his contract will prevent higher quality guys from being signed or retained. We have seen that Orakpo is NOT that kind of player. D sucks with him.

 

Hall, Cofield, and Kerrigan collectively cost 12 mil on the cap. Orakpo is not the level of player that can make up for all 3, in fact he hasn't. We'd instead have a D with Orakpo and 3 Peyton Thompsons, and we'd 1 mil over. 

 

Around the league, here are the top 3 paid players, cap hits in millions: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/ of the playoff teams:

 

CAR- Charles Johnson 12.6, Deaneglo Williams 8.6

Cincy- Michael Johnson 11.1, Atkins 10.6, Leon Hall 9.7

Denver- Peyton 19.2, Bailey 10.6, Clady 10.5

GB- Rodgers 22, Matthews 13, Tramon Williams 8.2

Colts- Mathis 9, Cherilus 7, Bethea 6.5

KC- Hali 11.5, Bowe 11.2, Tyson Jackson 10.9

Pats- Brady 14, Mankins 8.5, Wilfork 8

NO- Brees 20, Evans 8.1, Graham whatever tag cost was

PHI- Cole 12.1, Peters 10.3, Desean 9.7 (and he has trade rumors around him now due to cap situation from dream team fiasco)

SD- Rivers 15.3, Weddle 8, Gates 7.2

SF- Willis 10, Bowman 9, Boldin 8.3

SEA- Harvin 10.7, Okung 8, Lynch 7.5

 

Redskins RG3 is going to be around 16-18, Trent 12-15. Looking at these other teams, and looking at most other NFL teams, having a 3rd player at 12-13 in addition to a franchise QB and arguably the best LT in the game both on new contracts is going to be impossible UNLESS we are willing to have very low pay for depth and some starters. This means that player 3 would absolutely have to be so elite that he masks the weaknesses of the players caused by his contract. 

 

Again, Orakpo is NOT that level of player and we've seen that with our eyes. 

[Mocountyskins]

Don't break the bank on Rak when you got so many holes. That's like if you were going to have a big party and had a $1000 budget then turn around and spend $900 of it on one bottle of Jack (which is very meh to eh. The point)

[sportjunkie07]

As much as I feel orakpo has not met his potential, I still think he is a very good player and worth 10.5 mil or so a year.

He has been productive, has good character, and is good both on and off the field.

He's had some injury problems but I feel like the injuries work in our favor (I.e. He's been unlucky more than anything) in contract negotiation.

Surely on the open market he'll make more than what we can responsibly offer, such is the nature of the NFL. But we do need to make him a serious offer, frontloaded with a good guarantee.

If that fails, we've got to franchise him, which is where I think we're headed.

[elkabong82]

If we franchise him and he plays very well then he'll want 12-13 million per season again, he'll be 29, and we'll have less cap space from this year's signings and from signing Trent to a new contract, plus we'll have RG3's mega-contract looming. In other words we won't be able to afford it (which means in long-run we can't afford it this year either).

 

If we franchise him and he plays average or poorly then he may drop his contract demands down to 9-10 mil per, BUT, will we want an average pass rusher who is 29 at that cost? Doubt it.

 

Unless Rak will accept a contract at 9-10 per season then best move is to just rip the band-aid off.

 

Also, I'm wondering why more aren't at least a little bit upset that Rak apparently refuses to cut the team a break or work a better deal, a home team discount, like Hall did? His contract demands are why he's not re-signed. Team probably would roll with 9-10 per season, and that's not being cheap.

[Redskin Diehard]

Is that our goal though?  Serviceable players?  If it is then our ceiling will be mediocrity.  A team needs a corp of very good to great players.  Riley fits my definition of a serviceable player.  He'll get the job done, won't embarrass you.  A double digit sack guy is more than that.  Now, is he a 13 mil a year guy?  The funny thing is when Wilbur Marshall was stolen from the Bears for a five year six million dollar contract many thought that was crazy.  Can you imagine how over the moon we'd be today to get a guy of his caliber for just over a million a year for five years? 

 

So, the numbers matter, but they are also meaningless.  Who knows if 10 million a year in five years will be pedestrian?  What matters most is how good is the player.  Is he elite, great, very good, can you build around him, is he average, does he have weaknesses you can build around, is he dependable, is he fragile, etc?

 

I don't want a team full of serviceable players.  It's just a bad modifier.  I want a good team.  I want a great team.  Mind you, I do think we also need a bunch of no frills, hard working blue collar players.  You need them too, but you also need a few "wow" guys.

 

Now, I think we can argue about Orakpo's merits.  I think he's on that second tier and his injury concerns put him further down on that second tier, but I'd certainly rather build my team around second tier guys than fifth tier guys.

Serviceable means effective in my book. Several potential starters and legitimate backups... So you would rather give in for the sake of keeping a quality guy with a history of season ending injuries for 9.5 sacks and 60 tackles a year. I don't get it. That kind of pedestrian production is not worth $12 million a year IMO. Again... if Rak was dominating games with 3 or 4 sack games, pick sixes, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries etc. I would be more inclined to pay him on that level but that's not the kind of production he's bringing to the table. What's so horrible about putting the non-exclusive franchise tag on him for protection purposes and letting him negotiate a big money deal with some other loser franchise that has cap money to waste allowing us to walk away with two first round picks when the deal is done? It's a no brainer to me.

[Redskin Diehard]

Brian Orakpo is a sometimin pro bowler and not elite we all agree! Lay off the hate tho. Man cannot do one thing right according to the fans and the media.

Heres the hate:

He doesnt play big in big games....my answer = we dont have many big games, it takes a team to get there. Only defensive players that stepped up this year were from the Seahawks, everyone else fell short. DeMarcus Ware is a hall of famer and havent done squat the last 3 years to push the Cowgirls to the playoffs...

He gets all his sacks against the Raiders...my answer: so does every other passrusher. Von Miller and Tamba Hali has the raiders twice! Are they discredited?

His only big play int was created by Reed doughty...my answer: true but he caught it (see c.rogers) and ran all the way to the endzone. He coulda fell lol.

He doesnt have many moves...my answer: hes not a ninja. more often than you think Haslett is calling contain which doesnt allow for alot of flexibility. Besides its not about moves, more ya first step, punch, and ability to get in that 2nd gear.

I don't think most fans who are not in favor of re-signing Rak for $12 million a year are hating on him. He's just not worth that kind of money period. Personally, I wouldn't care if we had $60 million in cap space like the Raiders. I think it would be reckless to give any player that much money, regardless of their production. That's not hate. It's practical logic. There is a linear relationship between cap space and holes to fill. The more cap space you have, obviously, the more players you must need to fill out your roster. Hello... that's where all the cap space came from. There are two factions in this deal. Redskins fans who have developed an emotional attachment to Orakpo to a point where it's clouding their judgement and Redskins fans who may love and respect the guy but just prefer he gets paid elsewhere if that will help the franchise reconstruct the ENTIRE roster faster. Let's not forget.. we have major holes to fill on offense, defense and special teams or we will suck again next season and the season after and the season after that. This aint the "Brian Orakpo Show" bruh...

[bedlamVR]

Free agency is not where you fill your roster ... the draft is where you fill out your roster ... the Patriots for example had 7 undrafted free agents on one side of the ball last year and they made the playoffs .

 

Instead of drooling over Alex Mack and Jairus Byrd we should be getting and developing our own players ...

 

I say again this is not about emotional attachments to players it is about putting the best team out there ... and OLB is the most important position on the 3-4 (though it cannot exist in a vacuum and needs support) and really no one has explained to me who would be better and on a team with so many holes how it makes sense to make one in a key position ...

 

We talk all the time about parting ways with people like Carriker, Chester and Bowen but cutting those players is going to consume 10 million in dead cap and that is the lasting legacy of botched FA moves by this FO featuring Bruce Allen Morrocco Brown and Scott Campbell .

 

We should know by now there is no short cut to building a franchise ..