SOW: Defending Redskins Name on ESPN Outside the Lines

[mikemac9]

Really well presented points man, and did so in a way that was respectful to other people, not dismissive or discounting like we see so much of. Thanks for representing the skins nation well.

[RFKFedEx]

I respect Soup for his face time. I disagree with his position, but I think he represented with class.

[BleedBNG]

I would just tell them to first visit these 70 schools (one of which is a Native American school), convince them to change their nicknames, and then get back to us:

http://www.maxpreps.com/search/school.aspx?school_name=Redskins

Clinton, Capitol Hill, and Liberal? SERIOUSLY?

[rd421]

Hey guys here is the full video http://vimeo.com/m/60305403

[terryb101]

Quoted this from a post BG made....

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/redskins.htm

"So does Walter Wetzel, former chairman of the Blackfoot tribe and president of the National Congress of American Indians in the 1960s. By the early '60s, the Redskins had dropped any reference to Indians in their logo, uniforms and merchandise. Wetzel went to the Redskins office with photos of Indians in full headdress.

"I said, 'I'd like to see an Indian on your helmets,' " which then sported a big "R" as the team logo, remembers Wetzel, now 86 and retired in Montana. Within weeks, the Redskins had a new logo, a composite Indian taken from the features in Wetzel's pictures. "It made us all so proud to have an Indian on a big-time team. . . . It's only a small group of radicals who oppose those names. Indians are proud of Indians."

Snyder, meanwhile, intends to keep the name, no matter the protests. "Frankly, we don't hear much from fans about this," Swanson says. "Words take power from their usage. We don't use funny mascots. We don't have tomahawk chops. We've always used the word in a respectful way, to mean tradition, courage and respect."

i had the helmet with the "r" on it as a kid . got it for Christmas that year, they did that because the design for the current logo wasn't completed yet. personally i perfer the spear on the helmet to the crap they have on there now. never liked the indian on the helmet.. but thats just one mans opinion

[benskins26]

Great job man. You took the exact right approach. It's not even about this franchise, it's about the slippery slope.

[Chachie]

Although I'd love to see an "about face" from the nation regarding their perception of this team name, I think it's inevitable that Snyder will have to change it. If not, eventually the word won't be allowed on television broadcast.

[NewCliche21]

Although I'd love to see an "about face" from the nation regarding their perception of this team name, I think it's inevitable that Snyder will have to change it. If not, eventually the word won't be allowed on television broadcast.

I don't think that this makes much sense. You have more words every year being allowable on television. Hell, Bono dropped the F bomb and the FCC was cool with it. Hell, I just wrote "Hell" and it's no big deal.

Also, this name has been around for coming on a century and only in the past few months has it become en vogue to get upset about it. It's not going anywhere.

[wysknz1]

OK, say the name and logo gets changed for the kinder gentler world. What does the NFL do on throwback weekends and games? How will it affect the HOF and record books. Do they use astixes??SPELL???

Anyone remember the fighting Whities?? HA that backfired

[ArmchairRedskin]

i had the helmet with the "r" on it as a kid . got it for Christmas that year, they did that because the design for the current logo wasn't completed yet. personally i perfer the spear on the helmet to the crap they have on there now. never liked the indian on the helmet.. but thats just one mans opinion

I disagree with you completely. I think the R and the spear are generic, cookie cutter type logos. The old feather is downright stupid looking if you ask me. I think the logo we have now is unique and proud. I think its the best logo in the league. I'd rather change the name of the team than the logo.

[RFKFedEx]

Hey guys here is the full video http://vimeo.com/m/60305403

Thanks for the link.

Alhough the outcome was predictable, it was still painful to watch.

[RFK Lives]

Yeah, I feel like the deck was stacked.

[HighOnHendrix]

Yeah, I feel like the deck was stacked.

Outnumbered 4 to 1. There were, what, six or seven people on the panel of that symposium? And zero opponents.

[2cents]

Yeah, I feel like the deck was stacked.

Of course it was. As I said earlier, you and others are mistaken in thinking a dialauge with people who want the name to change will do any good. They want it changed and facts don't matter. There really isn't any point in trying to change their minds.

[HighOnHendrix]

For my part, I agree with the suggestions that the traditional ceremonial garb should go. I've never felt comfortable with non-Natives wearing headdresses and the like, it can be too easily construed to be mocking their culture. I would really like to see ownership/management reach out to Natives in some way that would help them and their communities in tangible, concrete ways; not to the activists, leave them out of it, but to the regular folks that are struggling with real everyday problems. I've read about how the Blackhawks have done this same type of thing with positive results.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/chicago-blackhawks-developing-real-connections-to-american-indian-communities-62967

The Blackhawk franchise is not only looking to help restore the statue, but to renovate parts of the American Indian Center and build a sports complex there. These are tangible commitments, a far cry from the lip service many teams pay to Indian Country. This past Sunday, the Blackhawks honored American Indian veterans during the national anthem before their game against the Edmonton Oilers.

Sypolt, Cherokee, told the Tribune that the commitment the Hawks are making is not just a public relations ploy. "There are many groups that approach us and say they want to do this and want to do that and many times we're hesitant because we question their motives. The Blackhawks have been very genuine in wanting to help and have been very aware of cultural sensitivities. We're very appreciative of that. They live up to everything they say they're going to do."

The reappearance of this issue doesn't have to be a bad thing. There is very little chance of the name ever being changed, nor the logo; in my opinion those things shouldn't change. But if it makes us look at ourselves, at our attitudes and actions as a fanbase and an organization, discussing the issue takes on a positive light and can produce positive results - both for the franchise and for the tribes. Let's make it an opportunity instead of a PR nightmare.

[darrelgreenie]

The word redskin defined by Merriam-Webster:

redskin: usually offensive: Native American

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redskin

Any definition you will find states the term is derogatory towards Native Americans.

As a fan of the Burgundy and Gold I have long since been embarrassed by the name and will be glad when/if they change it.

[thebluefood]

The word redskin defined by Merriam-Webster:

redskin: usually offensive: Native American

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/redskin

Any definition you will find states the term is derogatory towards Native Americans.

As a fan of the Burgundy and Gold I have long since been embarrassed by the name and will be glad when/if they change it.

And yet...

http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycenter.org/downloads/political_communication/naes/2004_03_redskins_09-24_pr.pdf

Most Indians Say Name of Washington “Redskins” Is Acceptable

While 9 Percent Call It Offensive, Annenberg Data Show

Most American Indians say that calling Washington’s professional football team the “Redskins”

does not bother them, the University of Pennsylvania’s National Annenberg Election Survey

shows.

The people who are supposed to be offended by the name, apparently, aren't offended.

[darrelgreenie]

If there was a team called the Rednecks.

And a poll indicated that 91% of lower class rural southern causasians stated that they weren't offended by the name; would that poll then change the definition of the word Redneck? Or make the term 'acceptable'?

[thebluefood]

If there was a team called the Rednecks.

And a poll indicated that 91% of lower class rural southern causasians stated that they weren't offended by the name; would that poll then change the definition of the word Redneck? Or make the term 'acceptable'?

Why, yes. Yes it is. How is something offensive if it doesn't offend the people it's supposed to offend? Why should I care if people other than American Indians are offended by the term Redskin? That's *their* problem and a jolly fine problem it is because if that's getting them worked up, they obviously don't have many other problems to worry about.

[G1]

I just started doing some research online and found this very interesting piece. Makes very interesting reading. I wish the author had been at the recent Smithsonian discussion.

From 2006

"I won't review the evidence in detail because Goddard's paper is short enough and accessible enough that if you are interested you should read it yourself. I'll just summarize it. Goddard shows that the term redskin is a translation from native American languages of a term used by native Americans for themselves. Harjo's claim that it "had its origins in the practice of presenting bloody red skins and scalps as proof of Indian kill for bounty payments" is unsupported by any evidence.⁴ The term entered popular usage via the novels of James Fenimore Cooper. In the early- to mid-nineteenth century the term was neutral, not pejorative, and indeed was often used in contexts in which whites spoke of Indians in positive terms. Goddard concludes:

Cooper's use of redskin as a Native American in-group term was entirely authentic, reflecting both the accurate perception of the Indian self-image and the evolving respect among whites for the Indians' distinct cultural perspective, whatever its prospects. The descent of this word into obloquy is a phenomenon of more recent times.

The response to Goddard's paper is disappointing. Other than reiterating the unsubstantiated and implausible theory that the term owes its origin to scalping, Harjo and others have merely waved their hands, asserting that as Indians they know differently without presenting any evidence whatsoever. A typical example is found in this Native Village article, which quotes Harjo as follows:

I'm very familiar with white men who uphold the judicious speech of white men. Europeans were not using high-minded language. [To them] we were only human when it came to territory, land cessions and whose side you were on.

The only point here that even resembles an argument is the bald assertion that Europeans never spoke of Indians other than disparagingly. This is not true"

[Redskins Ruckus]

If there was a team called the Rednecks.

And a poll indicated that 91% of lower class rural southern causasians stated that they weren't offended by the name; would that poll then change the definition of the word Redneck? Or make the term 'acceptable'?

Argument fallacy. Read up on them before you debate. You'll save yourself embarrassment.

[G1]

And here is am article from the Washington Post from 2005.

http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/02/AR2005100201139.html

Like Goddard, Shoemaker said that by the end of the 18th century, Native Americans were using "red" to describe themselves and to assert their pride of being North America's original inhabitants.

I'm left wondering what has changed in the last 8 years?

[HighOnHendrix]

If there was a team called the Rednecks.

And a poll indicated that 91% of lower class rural southern causasians stated that they weren't offended by the name; would that poll then change the definition of the word Redneck? Or make the term 'acceptable'?

Yes, and that's a really good example for why it should stay as-is. There WAS a time when calling someone a redneck would start a fight; same with guido. There comes a time for any segment of society when they take a term that they used to get sad at and decide to own it. That seems to have already happened on reservations; it's the activists who are up in arms, not the population as a whole. If they're not sad about it, why should we be?

[G1]

Any definition you will find states the term is derogatory towards Native Americans.

.

I just found links to two definitions given by language experts that differ. Took me 10 minutes.

[RFKFedEx]

How is something offensive if it doesn't offend the people it's supposed to offend? Why should I care if people other than American Indians are offended by the term Redskin? That's *their* problem.

I don't see how you could watch the full 22 minutes of that show and still wonder.

Had ES been around in the 1950s, I'll bet a lot of our fanbase would have taken the similar approach toward integration. As political and social leaders were asking us to change, ownership responded with an 'EFF 'em, we don't need 'em' attitude. Public opinion polls favored keeping the team white. Policy defenders boasted of history, tradition, and honor to protect something that belonged to 'us' and not 'them'. Sound familiar?

The franchise resisted change for as long as it could legally do so, but ultimately 'lost' the battle in the end. I don't predict the outcome being much different this time around.