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From Backwoods Home Magazine: 2nd Amendment, the Bill of Rights...long read, but worth it

ZoEd

By ZoEd
in The Tailgate

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zoony

zoony

Posted
Posted

Just because you're not familiar with the weapons or what they're used for doesn't mean there aren't responsible people out there who use them in a safe manner.?

I find it ironic that you are asking for a civil discussion and claiming persecution after reading that gem.

As for the part above, again, show me where DJTj or anyone else said that there are no responsible people out there when it comes to assault weapons, nevermind the implied causal relationship you feel exists between that and DJTjs knowledge about guns.

And for the record, I would put my gun knowledge against yours any day of the week. If you want to get into a pointless Internet pissing contest about who knows more about guns, that's fine, just give me a little advanced notice. And let's hook up a chat feature or live phone call so we can both avoid looking up answers on google.

Now back to your whining about people labeling you and acting like jerks....

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DjTj

DjTj

Posted
Posted
Neither are 800 HP cars, 200mph motorcycles or any other excesses in life but responsible people can own them, even though the Prius driving folks of the world probably think that no reasonable person needs to have that much power or the ability to go that fast! It's ludicrus!
But 800-HP cars aren't stolen for the purpose of committing crimes and killing other people. And we do actually have restrictions on emissions, undercarriage clearance, lights, etc. that are "cosmetic" to the car but make it safer for the public. And of course you have to register your car. I don't think that the assault weapons ban is asking for much more from gun owners than is required of car owners. There is a line beyond which we don't allow people to buy cars of a certain weight or size or type, and we are just arguing about where the proper line is for guns between individual rights and public safety.
Just because you're not familiar with the weapons or what they're used for doesn't mean there aren't responsible people out there who use them in a safe manner. And no one has proven to me or shown me evidence these demonized weapons, with all of their firey fangs, scales and big high capacity mouthes full of shiny bullets enabled these mass shootings to take place! Do any of you, raise your hand, please tell me how long it takes to drop a magazine, reload a full one and continue shooting? Anyone. Bueller?
I am not sure if you have been reading this thread, but the last 3 pages have been a discussion of the amount of time it takes to reload.
Edit: I do think that limiting mag sizes is a pretty ridiculous and token idea. There really is nothing that is going to come from that. Mag changes happen in seconds. At Columbine, they just brought a whole bunch of mags with them and swapped them out.
Wouldn't it be easier for a bystander to stop or slow down a shooter that needs to reload more often?
limiting magazine sizes probablyis a token idea, and conversely, i think that they can be used as bait if kept legal.

Take the case of the Aurora shooter, if anyone had the power to review his applications would clearly see many red flags of a guy getting ready to go to war. buying drum magazines, body armor. gun after gun.. these are ways we can look into preventing such things reasonably.

~Bang

It doesn't take a "few seconds" to change a magazine. To clear a jam? Yeah. to change a magazine? No. I don't know if that changes MF's opinion of the "reasoning".
So how long does it take to reload then? Sometimes seconds are all you need in situations like this.
How many seconds are you claiming it will take? I honestly have never done more than shoot through a magazine at a gun range, so I have never tried to change out a clip as fast as possible. But to detach a magazine, grab another magazine, insert it, and reacquire the target and start shooting again, you are saying that can typically be done in 1 second? SW81 said it would take "seconds." Do you disagree with that?
Are we talking average person or the guy that its around practicing it all day and always keep it in exactly the same place? It can take anywhere from a second to an embarrassingly long time. I doubt that most mass murderers are well oiled machines that practice countless hours in order to get changing the mag programmed into muscle memory. Thus the massive capacity mag.
Changing a mag is literally a split second thing. For a handgun, you drop the old mag at the push of a button, slapping a new mag in, and releasing the upper receiver. Trained, you can do this in less than a second. A novice could very easily take a couple seconds.

Maybe you're the one that skipped class today?

ferris-bueller.jpg

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DjTj

DjTj

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Have a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.
If they are just there to rob you, I think it's likely that firing a few shots and taking cover will be your best strategy to scare them away. No matter how many rounds are in your gun, one against four is not good odds.

And while we're thinking about this, what if 10 armed thugs break into your house? It would suck to only have a semiautomatic rifle with a 50-round magazine. We'll have to legalize belt-fed automatic weapons if we are going to have a chance.

And what if 30 armed thugs break into your house? It's going to suck to only have the one machine gun. I guess we'll have to legalize grenades and flame throwers and apache helicopters.

We're all going to have to face the fact that no matter how well we arm ourselves, there will be situations where it is not going to be possible to defend ourselves without additional backup. So can we have a reasonable discussion about what guns are necessary for home defense without coming up with wild scenarios?

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Destino

Destino

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Posted
Having a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.

I don't live in a warehouse with long distances and wide open spaces so I'd probably not chose a rifle in that situation. I hope neighbors also decide not to spray their rifle at the street toughs that invade their home. My walls are kind if thin.

Hand guns aren't ideal either being that 4 armed thugs will continue to shoot back at you unless your shots hit perfectly and the odds of hitting more than one in the brain or heart is virtually zero. Shotgun would be good but with those number retreat and escape might be better.

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Predicto

Predicto

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Posted
Having a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.

I'd hate to be your neighbor if you are seriously considering using an assault rifle for home defense. Those bullets are going to go through several nearby houses before they even slow down. Heck, I'd hate to be your kids - ceilings are no protection either.

Home defense: shotgun. Accept no substitutes.

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wshngtn1

wshngtn1

Posted
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A high capacity shotgun would be best but having quick access to it is tough with kids in the house. Who said anything about using a rifle? I would rather have a 17 rd mag than a 7 rd mag in any situation or scenario whether its one intruder or 20. It may not save my family but neither will crossing my fingers.

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sacase

sacase

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Posted
If they are just there to rob you, I think it's likely that firing a few shots and taking cover will be your best strategy to scare them away. No matter how many rounds are in your gun, one against four is not good odds.

And while we're thinking about this, what if 10 armed thugs break into your house? It would suck to only have a semiautomatic rifle with a 50-round magazine. We'll have to legalize belt-fed automatic weapons if we are going to have a chance.

And what if 30 armed thugs break into your house? It's going to suck to only have the one machine gun. I guess we'll have to legalize grenades and flame throwers and apache helicopters.

We're all going to have to face the fact that no matter how well we arm ourselves, there will be situations where it is not going to be possible to defend ourselves without additional backup. So can we have a reasonable discussion about what guns are necessary for home defense without coming up with wild scenarios?

Considering our soldiers in Iraq and Astan never use burst just semi when clearing a house I think I will take my chances with a semi auto rifle

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Redskins Diehard

Redskins Diehard

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So how long does it take to reload then? Sometimes seconds are all you need in situations like this.
How many seconds are you claiming it will take? I honestly have never done more than shoot through a magazine at a gun range, so I have never tried to change out a clip as fast as possible. But to detach a magazine, grab another magazine, insert it, and reacquire the target and start shooting again, you are saying that can typically be done in 1 second? SW81 said it would take "seconds." Do you disagree with that?
Are we talking average person or the guy that its around practicing it all day and always keep it in exactly the same place? It can take anywhere from a second to an embarrassingly long time. I doubt that most mass murderers are well oiled machines that practice countless hours in order to get changing the mag programmed into muscle memory. Thus the massive capacity mag.

I am not talking seconds. I have mentioned a few times in the past that it does not require much practice at all to become proficient in changing magazines. Sure, if the person that has bought the weapon, ammunition, and magazines decides to put them in their pocket then it could take a while to change them. The scenario that Dj brought up was a jam and that is a far more time consuming process than a magazine change. It is faster to shoot say 30 rounds from 1 30 round magazine than it would be to shoot 30 rounds from 3 10 round magazines.(Well aimed shots) But we are not talking about massive amounts of training or practice to make that difference "negligible". And definitely not "countless hours". To be clear...I don't oppose a limit to magazine capacity. I don't see it making a difference in many of the situations that it is meant to address. As I have mentioned before...I believe damage was MITIGATED by the magazine choice of Aurora shooter.

---------- Post added January-18th-2013 at 07:28 PM ----------

I'd hate to be your neighbor if you are seriously considering using an assault rifle for home defense. Those bullets are going to go through several nearby houses before they even slow down. Heck, I'd hate to be your kids - ceilings are no protection either.

Home defense: shotgun. Accept no substitutes.

Hey, there are plenty of people that we would hate to have as our neighbor for any variety of reasons.

While I would not argue the point of the best weapon for the job. Pass through several houses before they slow down is probably a bit of an exaggeration.

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sacase

sacase

Posted
Posted
I'd hate to be your neighbor if you are seriously considering using an assault rifle for home defense. Those bullets are going to go through several nearby houses before they even slow down. Heck, I'd hate to be your kids - ceilings are no protection either.

Home defense: shotgun. Accept no substitutes.

Sigh......false....stick to law. A 5.56mm/.223 is a high velocity round that fragments. Once it passes through an interior wall the chance of wounding go down a lot. Exterior wall are thicker and would lower the wound potential even more. You have far more to worry about from a heavier hand gun round than a 5.56mm. In fact double ought buckshot is more dangerous than your evil AR-15. While I agree that a shotty is better, its more due to the point and shoot aspect under stress.

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Redskins Diehard

Redskins Diehard

Posted
Posted
I'd hate to be your neighbor if you are seriously considering using an assault rifle for home defense. Those bullets are going to go through several nearby houses before they even slow down. Heck, I'd hate to be your kids - ceilings are no protection either.

Home defense: shotgun. Accept no substitutes.

Hey, there are plenty of people that we would hate to have as our neighbor for any variety of reasons.

While I would not argue the point of the best weapon for the job. Pass through several houses before they slow down is probably a bit of an exaggeration.

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wshngtn1

wshngtn1

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Posted
If they are just there to rob you, I think it's likely that firing a few shots and taking cover will be your best strategy to scare them away. No matter how many rounds are in your gun, one against four is not good odds.

I seriously doubt they will give me ample time to ask if they are only here to rob me. If you think firing 3 of your 7 shots to scare them and then taking cover is the best plan...well, hey, go for it and I wish you the best! But because you think that is best doesnt mean I think that is best. We all base a lot of decisions on probability...and I think the probability of 4 intruders is just a tad bit higher than your wild scenarios.

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PleaseBlitz

PleaseBlitz

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I seriously doubt they will give me ample time to ask if they are only here to rob me. If you think firing 3 of your 7 shots to scare them and then taking cover is the best plan...well, hey, go for it and I wish you the best! But because you think that is best doesnt mean I think that is best. We all base a lot of decisions on probability...and I think the probability of 4 intruders is just a tad bit higher than your wild scenarios.

You are 37. Has your home been invaded by 4 intruders during that time?

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Destino

Destino

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I'm calling bull**** on it not taking a lot of practice to get mag swaps down to a second or less. It takes a lot of practice and it requires conditions to be right, like spares being in the exact same spot you've trained yourself to reach for them. Add to that the stress of a real situation and the possibility of people fighting back and there is a goddamn WORLD of difference between having to swap out or simply continuing to fire.

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wshngtn1

wshngtn1

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You are 37. Has your home been invaded by 4 intruders during that time?

No, but unless you can guarantee that it will never happen, that doesn't mean much. I understand the probability is low. The probability of my house getting destroyed is low too, but I still insure it.

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Burgold

Burgold

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Posted
No, but unless you can guarantee that it will never happen, that doesn't mean much. I understand the probability is low. The probability of my house getting destroyed is low too, but I still insure it.

What is the probability that you will get hit by a drunk driver? Are you willing to make drunk driving legal?

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