Larry Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Yeah, one of the things that always strikes me (no pun intended) about these stories is how the Palestenians can be such bad shots. Hundreds of rockets, and not one hit? I would have thought they'd have better odds simply firing blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Palestinians voted for Hamas Hamas is a terrorist organization I refuse to support terrorists plain and simple I am tired of this slant or bias perpetuated by the media, that the Palestinians are the victims here. Palestinians fire rockets into Israel too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 Yeah, you're right. Those dead civilians deserved to die, because you don't like who they voted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Yeah, you're right. Those dead civilians deserved to die, because you don't like who they voted for. The dead Israeli or Palestinian civilians? The point is, the US, as well as other world governments, have always treated Hamas as a terrorist organization. Basically that's what they are. It's not me saying this. It's our government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 The dead Israeli or Palestinian civilians?The point is, the US, as well as other world governments, have always treated Hamas as a terrorist organization. Basically that's what they are. It's not me saying this. It's our government. Before your edit....you said something about Israel not saying something about 'Let's kill all the Palestinians' when it was created...just a correction, they kinda sorta did. Section 3, entitled Consolidation of Defense Systems and Fortifications calls for the occupation of police stations, the control of government installations, and the protection of secondary transportation arteries. Part 4 under this heading includes the following controversial paragraphs: Mounting operations against enemy population centers located inside or near our defensive system in order to prevent them from being used as bases by an active armed force. These operations can be divided into the following categories: Destruction of villages (setting fire to, blowing up, and planting mines in the debris), especially those population centers which are difficult to control continuously. Mounting search and control operations according to the following guidelines: encirclement of the village and conducting a search inside it. In the event of resistance, the armed force must be destroyed and the population must be expelled outside the borders of the state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Currently, Israeli missile and military attacks are focused on taking out Hamas leaders and munitions. (Which they have been so kind as to place in civilian centers). On the other hand, Hamas, a terrorist organization as declared by the United States and other Western powers, has indiscriminately fired missiles into Israel with the intent of killing innocent civilians, as well as employed suicide bombers to achieve their main goal of a violent removal of Israel. There is a difference. And before my edit, I said that you could, from the other perspective, try to make the claim that the United States and Israel were "terrorist organizations", like the US has done with Hamas. But the difference is clear as day, and listed above. Hamas is a violent organization. This has been proven time and time again. And part of me is tired of seeing the bias on the news (the allegedly "Zionist" news, as some might have you think) of the Palestinians in Gaza mourning their dead. My main issue is that the news is primarily focused on the Gaza story, while not realizing that people are dying over in Israel too. That's my concern. The Palestinians are not victims. Both sides are at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSF Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Isreal might be getting ready to put the hammer down on Hamas...Can't say I blame them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Currently, Israeli missile and military attacks are focused on taking out Hamas leaders and munitions. (Which they have been so kind as to place in civilian centers). On the other hand, Hamas, a terrorist organization as declared by the United States and other Western powers, has indiscriminately fired missiles into Israel with the intent of killing innocent civilians, as well as employed suicide bombers to achieve their main goal of a violent removal of Israel. There is a difference. And before my edit, I said that you could, from the other perspective, try to make the claim that the United States and Israel were "terrorist organizations", like the US has done with Hamas. But the difference is clear as day, and listed above. Hamas is a violent organization. This has been proven time and time again. And part of me is tired of seeing the bias on the news (the allegedly "Zionist" news, as some might have you think) of the Palestinians in Gaza mourning their dead. My main issue is that the news is primarily focused on the Gaza story, while not realizing that people are dying over in Israel too. That's my concern. The Palestinians are not victims. Both sides are at fault. This misses out on a lot. For example the fact that Palestinians are victims on a daily basis just by the way they're treated like prisoners in their own areas by Israel, and the way Israel illegally allows settlers to steal their land and destroy their plants. Not to mention that the deaths are mostly on the Palestinian side. There are good reasons that Israel is so unpopular around the world these days, and not just in pretty much every other country in the middle east or those mainly populated by arabs or muslims. Interesting enough I've been watching for days now of tons of people on twitter complaining of the 'biased pro-Israel' news coverage focusing on rockets hitting Israel. Of course none of this excuses the idiocy and vileness of firing off hundreds of rockets that have no chance of accomplishing anything other than killing some random civilians if some gaza militant gets lucky. Anyway, enough arguing on my part, on to the latest news: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/16/us-palestinians-israel-egyptian-delegati-idUSBRE8AF0C720121116 Egyptian prime minister arrives in Gaza - officialEgyptian Prime Minister Hisham Kandil arrived in the Gaza Strip on Friday to show solidarity with the Palestinian people following a two-day Israeli military offensive in the enclave, an Egyptian official said. Israel has said it will suspend all military action during Kandil's three-hour visit so long as the Islamist group Hamas also halts fire. http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=298352 Turkey offers talks with Israel to end Gaza assaultTurkish deputy prime minister has made a surprise offer and suggested that Turkey and Israel should hold bilateral talks to end the escalating crisis in Gaza despite the rift between the two nations. Bülent Arınç told reporters on Thursday that Turkey expects Israel to immediately halt the attacks on Gaza, which have left at least 20 Palestinians dead, including many civilians and infants. He added that these attacks have no moral and legal basis. He described the death of Hamas' military mastermind, Ahmed Al-Jaabari, a “martyrdom” and pounding the city with bombs a “non-humanitarian” behavior and a “tragedy.” The latest upsurge in the long-running conflict between Israel and Gaza came on Wednesday when Israel killed Al-Jaabari in a precision air strike on his car. Israel then began shelling the coastal enclave from land, air and sea. Two days of Israeli air strikes have killed 19 Palestinians, including seven militants and 12 civilians, among them six children and a pregnant woman carrying twins. A Hamas rocket killed three Israelis in the town of Kiryat Malachi on Thursday morning. https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov Israel conducted at least 200 air strikes on Gaza targets this morning.12:45 AM On the third day of the offensive. https://twitter.com/pdanahar I'm standing before a twisted, smoking pile of metal & concrete which last night was the interior ministry in Gaza2:32 AM Parts of the interior ministry building in Gaza are still on fire. 2:43 AM Small bomb craters pot mark parts of the Gaza city. Hard to see what target was in many cases just a crater in the road. 2:45 AM https://twitter.com/AJELive Ismail Haniyeh and Egyptian PM Hesham Qandil have entered Shifaa Hospital in Gaza City to meet with injured Palestinians2:52 AM Reports of rockets fired from Gaza despite the ceasefire...damn it. https://twitter.com/sheeraf That was short-lived. IDF in Israel and officials in Gaza both confirm that ceasefire broken in exchange of airstrike/rockets.3:11 AM By the way, there is another interesting component to all this. Hamas has done a fairly decent job of keeping militants from attacking Israel for a while now. It's a bit odd that suddenly all these rockets started flying the past weekend. Keep in mind that there are various groups involved here and not all are strictly under Hamas control, especially with the pivot Hamas has made away from Iran and towards Qatar and Egypt. Hamas certainly seems to be involved now, but I wonder if this may have been started off by a third party with Iran's blessing. For instance Islamic Jihad took credit for the rockets that reportedly landed in the water near Tel Aviv yesterday, possibly causing the Israelis to continue the airstrikes at least another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Oh fantastic.... https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak AFP: Hamas says two Gazans have been killed in an Israeli strike as Egyptian Prime Minister visits3:27 AM https://twitter.com/jamalAljazeera Haniyan & Qandil show their blood stained cloths -after those injured in latest attack by israel r admitted to the hospital they're visiting3:27 AM Qandil: this is not just a palestinian cause, this is the cause of the entire muslim and arab nation 3:28 AM https://twitter.com/pdanahar Just met Bassim & his 3 young children who live opposite the interior ministry in Gaza. He said his kids were 'afraid & crying too much'3:26 AM The windows in his house were blown out 'stones & glass was flying everywhere' he told me standing on his balcony in Gaza 3:27 AM BBC Arabic team was in hospital with Egyptian PM when two more bodies brought including 2 year old boy from air strike during his trip 3:36 AM Egyptian PM said 'What I am witnessing in Gaza is a disaster and I can't keep quiet. The Israel aggression must stop' 3:37 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 20 dead in 200 airstrikes is a really impressive number to me. How they can keep the damage that minimized is astounding. That said, I do put some of the blame on Israel on this though I certainly can understand them trying to halt rocket attacks once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 This misses out on a lot. For example the fact that Palestinians are victims on a daily basis just by the way they're treated like prisoners in their own areas by Israel, and the way Israel illegally allows settlers to steal their land and destroy their plants. Not to mention that the deaths are mostly on the Palestinian side. There are good reasons that Israel is so unpopular around the world these days, and not just in pretty much every other country in the middle east or those mainly populated by arabs or muslims. Interesting enough I've been watching for days now of tons of people on twitter complaining of the 'biased pro-Israel' news coverage focusing on rockets hitting Israel. Of course none of this excuses the idiocy and vileness of firing off hundreds of rockets that have no chance of accomplishing anything other than killing some random civilians if some gaza militant gets lucky. Anyway, enough arguing on my part, on to the latest news: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/16/us-palestinians-israel-egyptian-delegati-idUSBRE8AF0C720121116 http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=298352 https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov On the third day of the offensive. https://twitter.com/pdanahar https://twitter.com/AJELive Reports of rockets fired from Gaza despite the ceasefire...damn it. https://twitter.com/sheeraf By the way, there is another interesting component to all this. Hamas has done a fairly decent job of keeping militants from attacking Israel for a while now. It's a bit odd that suddenly all these rockets started flying the past weekend. Keep in mind that there are various groups involved here and not all are strictly under Hamas control, especially with the pivot Hamas has made away from Iran and towards Qatar and Egypt. Hamas certainly seems to be involved now, but I wonder if this may have been started off by a third party with Iran's blessing. For instance Islamic Jihad took credit for the rockets that reportedly landed in the water near Tel Aviv yesterday, possibly causing the Israelis to continue the airstrikes at least another day. Both sides are at fault, period. The attempt to portray Palestine as a victim when they voted in a terrorist organization that employs suicide bombers and whose main objective (as defined in their charter) is the violent elimination of Israel is puzzling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Why doesn't the US come out and say something along the lines of, "While we support Israel in its endeavor to keep its people safe, and back the decisions they make, we feel that the situation is escalating to a point of severe ramifications and both sides. Gaza and Israel must stop the volleying of missiles." I'll add a post script in saying: I know a little about this stuff, but not a ton. I'm not a political wizard, I pay attention to current events but have no idea if what I suggested is even remotely possible. But I would think that showing support of Israel is bad for our relations in the Middle East (which are already horrendous). *shrug* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I understand that Israel has done her share of damage in the "relationship" with Palestinians. But I have to be honest, if I were in charge there would be no Golan Heights or Gaza Strip. The first time a rocket was fired at me on my sovereign soil (an act of war as defined by the UN), that **** would be over. Pretty sure I would roll through those areas and end any ideas of independence. And I would tell the IC to mind their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Both sides are at fault, period. The attempt to portray Palestine as a victim when they voted in a terrorist organization that employs suicide bombers and whose main objective (as defined in their charter) is the violent elimination of Israel is puzzling. While I don't have a lot of respect for Hamas, there are few in the Arab or muslim world who do not have some degree of hatred for Israel and again there are some good reasons for this mixed in with the propaganda and anti-semitism. I am curious though why you keep bringing up suicide bombings. When was the last one in Israel? Because personally I don't recall hearing of one in a while. Oh great...now the idiots have fired on Jerusalem. Real helpful.... https://twitter.com/BreakingNews Armed wing of Hamas says it has fired a Qassam rocket at Jerusalem; air raid sirens wailing in Jerusalem - @Reuters9:55 AM Still I have to ask for those who support this offensive...what do you think will be gained by it? From what I see all it does is make international heroes out of some terrorists and greatly increase the danger to Israel...and kill a lot of Palestinians. So far the number of rockets fired on Israel has greatly increased since the offensive started and the number of dead on both sides as well from 0 to 23+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 2008 is the last officially documented suicide bombing. They learned that suicide bombings made them look barbaric through the lens of the media so they stopped them. And since 2008, the sypathetic stories on the plight of the Palestinians have increased ten-fold. But you don't get to carry out 171 documented suicide bombings over 20 years, totaling 804 fatalities, and claim after 3 years that they never happened. It was part of the SOP for Hamas for 2 decades. The specter of suicide bombers has been hung around their neck, by themselves, and will forever be associated with them. Sure, but they have't done it in years. So it's somewhat misleading to talk about it as if they still are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Oh great...now the idiots have fired on Jerusalem. REAL bad move on their part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 While I don't have a lot of respect for Hamas, there are few in the Arab or muslim world who do not have some degree of hatred for Israel and again there are some good reasons for this mixed in with the propaganda and anti-semitism.I am curious though why you keep bringing up suicide bombings. When was the last one in Israel? Because personally I don't recall hearing of one in a while. 2008 is the last officially documented suicide bombing. They learned that suicide bombings made them look barbaric through the lens of the media so they stopped them. And since 2008, the sypathetic stories on the plight of the Palestinians have increased ten-fold. But you don't get to carry out 171 documented suicide bombings over 20 years, totaling 804 fatalities, and claim after 3 years that they never happened. It was part of the SOP for Hamas for 2 decades. The specter of suicide bombers has been hung around their neck, by themselves, and will forever be associated with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Isreal might be getting ready to put the hammer down on Hamas...Can't say I blame them. I'm kind of at the point where we should just let them take the leashes off, let them have a full scale war and winner takes all. Everyone stay out of it and let them have a knock down, dragged out fight. Get it over with already. It's been 100 years. Settle it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Yeah, in theory that would be fine, but we have a pact to help out Bibi if he's attacked. Bibi is great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Sure, but they have't done it in years. So it's somewhat misleading to talk about it as if they still are.Right. But if Germany started building a massive standing army, and started deploying them to the border of Poland and Austria, will the world react like they have never seen this behavior before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 I understand that Israel has done her share of damage in the "relationship" with Palestinians. But I have to be honest, if I were in charge there would be no Golan Heights or Gaza Strip. The first time a rocket was fired at me on my sovereign soil (an act of war as defined by the UN), that **** would be over. Pretty sure I would roll through those areas and end any ideas of independence. And I would tell the IC to mind their business. Just pointing out, last I heard, sending in your countries civilians to occupy conquered territory was, according to the UN, not just an act of war, but actually a war crime. (Although, granted, the UN's definition of a war crime seems to be "more like guidelines".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Anyway, I'm off to Baltimore and Ellicot city now for the day, so I'll let you all discuss this some more. Hopefully things in Gaza and Israel will have calmed down a bit by the time I get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I am extremely concerned about Palestinian bias as many seem to think they are this victim of the big bad "Zionist" machine. Both sides are at fault, Palestine isn't the victim, as well as the "Zionist" machine To say overwhelmingly that Palestine is victim, while ignoring all that Terrorist organization Hamas does to Israel, is simply short-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Until forgiveness is embraced as an attitude lived out by both sides then I have little hope in any lasting peace. Right now everyone is too eager to jump on the "well look at all the bad things they've done" band waggon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Just pointing out, last I heard, sending in your countries civilians to occupy conquered territory was, according to the UN, not just an act of war, but actually a war crime. (Although, granted, the UN's definition of a war crime seems to be "more like guidelines".) Ummmm, the West Bank and Gaza Strip are already part of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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