Israel-Palestine kerfuffle

[JMS]

the people are not considered the threat, and they certainly have eliminated many threats(both human and otherwise)

peace will come when both parties are willing...as will destruction

Tactical threats... Israel has eliminated guys in tanks, or airplanes, or one guy with a rocket launcher.. But Israel has never eliminated any strategic threat through force of arms.. ever.

All she's ever been able to do is twist arms or break fingers in order to get strategic enemies to stop fighting for a period of time.. at the end of which

Israel has always had to set another example.

Israel has no strategy to win this engagement in Gaza beyond hurting Hamas enough to get them to ease up and think twice before shooting off their next rocket.

Just like Israel has never had a strategy to actually win a war against Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, or Syria beyond establishing an eventual temporary cease fire..

All of Israeli's military actions are precedented on obtaining a cease fire, leaving their enemy in the field..

Israel is simple not a large enough country to occupy any of her neighbors to force real change and actually win a war like we defeated Germany or Japan..

Israel isn't big enough to even occupy Gaza, that's why they left and currently only man the wall surrounding that city. Thus Israel strikes hard, and ruthlessly...

get's the other guy to cry uncle... then returns to glaring at her enemy from across the boarder until the next fight.

[visionary]

They're talking about Islamic Jihad in detail on CNN right now.

Some interesting coverage the past half hour or so.

They had a segment on the Gaza arms supplying and the different places it goes through, including Sinai, Sudan, ect, earlier.

https://twitter.com/andersoncooper

explosion hits bldg a block from our office. Destroys villa. A fire is burning. Arrived on scene before ambulances. no sign of bodies

2:37 PM

Several explosions near our office in last few minutes while we are live on the air @CNN Gaza

3:55 PM

a lot of incoming right now

4:03 PM

[jpyaks3]

Now, that's one of the things I find myself skeptical on. Looking at these reports, it seems like children always account for 1/4 or more of the casualties.

Now, I've read claims that, whenever there's an air strike or whatever, that volunteers immediately run to the nearest hospital, pull out bodies from the morgue (especially women and children) who have recently died, and deliver their bodies to the blast site, and claim that they were martyred.

(Yes, I assume that both sides do this.)

You are going to need to show some real sources for this, because that sounds like total bull****. The fact is since 2000 more than 1,000 Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli attacks.

And these numbers make me wonder if children represent 1/4 of the people in Palestine, or are these numbers funny.

1/2 the population in Gaza is under 18 I believe.

[Larry]

You are going to need to show some real sources for this, because that sounds like total bull****.

You want to demand that I prove that I have read some claims? (Claims which I think I've made clear I'm skeptical of)?

The fact is since 2000 more than 1,000 Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli attacks.

And then you want to follow it up with "The fact is . . . " (and provide no support)?

Edit: And no, that isn't a request for support. Frankly, my position on the Middle East is that I don't think there is a source I'd completely believe. (On either side.)

I certainly assume that the number you've posted, has been claimed. Probably by numerous sources.

But I'm going to be skeptical about all of them.

[GSF]

Israel has a right not to have rockets rained down on them.

(The Palestinians have more than few rights that Israel doesn't pay any attention to most of the time too, but that's another argument.)

For the sake of this argument though, what makes you think Israel's offensive is a good way of stopping the rockets which were raining down?

The rockets had stopped when they began the offensive and way more rockets came down after the offensive began and people have actually been killed and wounded on both sides (over 100 dead and 1000 wounded in Gaza and at least a few dead and wounded in Israel).

How does this offensive solve the rocket problem and make things better?

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 01:43 PM ----------

You understand that Hamas refers to Isreal as the Zionist occupation right? Hamas refuses to recognize Isreal as a state. They have been firing the rockets regularly and had it not been for the iron dome a lot more Isreali lives would have been lost. Isreal has got to be the only country in the world that people expect to just tolerate this kind of activity.

I personally don't think Isreal's retaliation has been strong enough, and I think they are getting ready to open up a huge can if Hamas doesn't give it up in a hurry.

[jpyaks3]

You want to demand that I prove that I have read some claims? (Claims which I think I've made clear I'm skeptical of)?

Well I thought you would at least be able to show where you saw the claims.

And then you want to follow it up with "The fact is . . . " (and provide no support)?

Edit: And no, that isn't a request for support. Frankly, my position on the Middle East is that I don't think there is a source I'd completely believe. (On either side.)

I certainly assume that the number you've posted, has been claimed. Probably by numerous sources.

But I'm going to be skeptical about all of them.

Sorry I should have posted my sources, however across the board from the United Nations to Human Rights groups have confirmed the numbers and report similar numbers to just jam your head in the sand and say I don't believe anything from the region or any sources is a pretty bad way to go about learning about a conflict. Be skeptical of sources but don't reject all sources out of hand.

Here is one from the United Nations however it only goes to 2007 but it shows upwards of 800 children confirmed killed (http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272) this doesn't include the 2008 Cast Lead offensive where according to B'Tselem 300+ more children were killed (http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20091227_a_year_to_castlead_operation)

Further sources include a UN official who says more than 1,300 Palestinian children have been killed since 2000.

According to Prof. Richard Falk, the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, Israeli forces killed 1,335 children in direct military operations and arbitrary shootings. He pointed out that 17 children were killed in 2010 alone while collecting stones in the borders areas between Gaza and Israel. They were attempting to help their families rebuild their homes. Israel continues to prevent the import of building material into the Strip.

(http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/2300-un-official-israeli-occupation-killed-1300-palestinian-children-since-2000)

B'Tselem an Israeli Human Rights Organization.shows 1335 minors killed by Israeli security forces

http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

My point is that there is a hell of a lot of evidence that a thousand+ children have been killed by Israeli security forces and it is well sourced, throwing out something like your first statement which attempts to delegitimize those deaths without at least providing a source doesn't help the discourse in a complex subject like this.

If you are going to throw something out like that at least provide a source for the claim or the claim itself.

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 04:45 PM ----------

Israel has a right not to have rockets rained down on them.

(The Palestinians have more than few rights that Israel doesn't pay any attention to most of the time too, but that's another argument.)

For the sake of this argument though, what makes you think Israel's offensive is a good way of stopping the rockets which were raining down?

The rockets had stopped when they began the offensive and way more rockets came down after the offensive began and people have actually been killed and wounded on both sides (over 100 dead and 1000 wounded in Gaza and at least a few dead and wounded in Israel).

How does this offensive solve the rocket problem and make things better?

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 01:43 PM ----------

You understand that Hamas refers to Isreal as the Zionist occupation right? Hamas refuses to recognize Isreal as a state. They have been firing the rockets regularly and had it not been for the iron dome a lot more Isreali lives would have been lost. Isreal has got to be the only country in the world that people expect to just tolerate this kind of activity.

Israel is also the only nation in the world practicing apartheid and actively colonizing its neighbor. Do you think that could have any effect on why Israeli aggression (such as the continuing illegal blockade) is viewed in a different light?

[visionary]

you understand that hamas refers to isreal as the zionist occupation right? Hamas refuses to recognize isreal as a state. They have been firing the rockets regularly and had it not been for the iron dome a lot more isreali lives would have been lost. Isreal has got to be the only country in the world that people expect to just tolerate this kind of activity.

I personally don't think isreal's retaliation has been strong enough, and i think they are getting ready to open up a huge can if hamas doesn't give it up in a hurry.

So far all Israel has done is to make things much worse on all accounts.

There's nothing short of killing tens of thousands of people that would accomplish what they want in Gaza, and to do so would only give them short term gains and some significant losses of Israeli lives, and that's assuming it doesn't also result in war between them and various other nations, or a massive militant jihad and suicide attacks.

There is no military solution for either Hamas or Israel in this conflict.

Hamas needs to be pushed into accepting Israel and Israel and their allies need to accept Hamas (and end policies that feed extremism on both sides) at least until someone/something better turns up.

[GSF]

Israel is also the only nation in the world practicing apartheid and actively colonizing its neighbor. Do you think that could have any effect on why Israeli aggression (such as the continuing illegal blockade) is viewed in a different light?

Clearly the leaders of the free world disagree with your assesment.

[jpyaks3]

Clearly the leaders of the free world disagree with your assesment.

The United States supported apartheid South Africa until it became politically untenable we used our veto in the United Nations in much the same way we do now to protect Israel, we were their greatest ally (aside from Israel). So clearly the United States historically isn't a great judge of anything related to freedom (and our actions clearly back this). We also support the Saudi Arabian regime, does that mean they are all peachy too?

[Larry]

There is no military solution for either Hamas or Israel in this conflict.

Hamas needs to be pushed into accepting Israel and Israel and their allies need to accept Hamas (and end policies that feed extremism on both sides) at least until someone/something better turns up.

I keep thinking that if Israel really wanted to cut the political legs out from under Hamas, a good way to do it would be by being nice to the West Bank.

And no, "I demand that they recognize all the illegal settlements we've been building for 30 years, and all of our security zones, and everything else" isn't "being nice".

But, as long as Israel keeps conquering the West Bank, and isn't invading Gaza, then the folks in Gaza are gonna keep voting for The Guy Who Isn't Losing Territory.

Just my opinion.

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 05:26 PM ----------

Clearly the leaders of the free world disagree with your assesment.

Name one.

Even the US (surely Israel's biggest supporter in the world) doesn't recognize many of the things Israel is doing (apartheid in Jerusalem. Heck, claiming ownership of Jerusalem. The settlements.)

[nuposse87]

I think Israel is beyond that. We can't walk away right now, the way things are and expect them to sort themselves out on their own.

The model we should use is the one Clinton used, ( which I was so critical off in the 1990's.).... We need to tamp down the violence on both sides and see if we can grow a few more moderates to reach a critical mass leading to peace. We certainly don't have such a critical mass presently on either side. Netanyahu is as bad or worse than Arial Sharon who spent the majority of his political career on the extreme fringe right of Israeli politics. And Hamas is a full blown terrorist organization which we don't even have any ties with...

I would argue we need to get more involved diplomatically starting with actually getting communication lines open with all the antagonists.

I'm a fairly strict isolationist when it comes to how a sovereign nation conducts itself and delving into the affairs of other states. We aren't in a position where can simply walk away right now...you are right about that...but I only say that because 13% of our oil imports still come from the region. If the day ever comes where we can be self sufficient and reliant our own energy souces, I cannot think of one damn good reason we should ever give them a dollar of aid again. It isn't exactly like they're our most valued trading partner.

[jpyaks3]

I keep thinking that if Israel really wanted to cut the political legs out from under Hamas, a good way to do it would be by being nice to the West Bank.

And no, "I demand that they recognize all the illegal settlements we've been building for 30 years, and all of our security zones, and everything else" isn't "being nice".

But, as long as Israel keeps conquering the West Bank, and isn't invading Gaza, then the folks in Gaza are gonna keep voting for The Guy Who Isn't Losing Territory.

Just my opinion.

The problem is Israel is perfectly happy with the status quo where they get to keep on expanding settlements, stealing fertile land, and ethnically cleansing Jerusalem. They also have a scapegoat in Hamas who they can always deflect any criticism with. The problem for Israel is longer term, what the **** are they going to do with all these extremist settlers they keep letting loose in Palestine when a final deal comes to the table (assuming Netanyahu doesn't keep winning elections because he obviously is working against peace). There is a real possibility for a lot of violence in the Israeli state between settlers and the IDF anyone who tries to remove them.

I understand the game they are playing where they are enjoying the colonization of the West Bank but its a very dangerous game because the end game can still go quite a few ugly ways and that isn't even talking about population growth for Arabs and Palestinians and international pressure. Removing settlers from Gaza was a hellacious affair and they were simply moving them to other settlements, removing settlers from the West Bank especially some of the massive settlements has the potential to spark a civil war and a lot of other nasty things in Israel.

Hopefully Israeli officials will start looking to the future and realizing that now is the time to strike for peace and a good deal because if you keep pushing farther the two state solution gets more tenuous and a one state solution starts to look more and more like a necessity especially if they continue with their apartheid policies.

[Burgold]

.

Israel is simple not a large enough country to occupy any of her neighbors to force real change and actually win a war like we defeated Germany or Japan.. .

That's good to know. There are currently no occupied territories and no lands therefore under dispute. Israel has never occupied any land and therefore all the territory under her control currently is hers.

Settled. Whew.

[twa]

Gaza would have a tough sell if you compared apartheid policies

[visionary]

Reporters on twitter are getting pretty mad at IDF spokesman for suggesting that they stay away from Hamas members and not be used as human shields and they won't get hit.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson

Warning to reporters in Gaza: Stay away from Hamas operatives & facilities. Hamas, a terrorist group, will use you as human shields.

5:34 PM

https://twitter.com/acarvin

@IDFSpokesperson do you think it's likely that news orgs know everyone else operating in the same building? @afp seems surprised.

5:37 PM

https://twitter.com/StefanieDekker

@IDFSpokesperson are you saying we become legitimate targets if we interview Hamas officials?

5:42 PM

https://twitter.com/erinmcunningham

It's not like "Hamas operatives" walk around with it written on their foreheads. Specifics would be nice, @IDFSpokesperson

5:54 PM

https://twitter.com/ahauslohner

.@IDFSpokesperson Seriously, if Hamas is in room 208 (I'm in 209), tell me now.

5:57 PM

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 06:29 PM ----------

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/as-israel-and-hamas-grapple-with-cease-fire-barak-and-netanyahu-disagree-on-terms.premium-1.479349

As Israel and Hamas grapple with cease-fire, Barak and Netanyahu disagree on terms

During the discussions taking place at the Prime Minister's Office throughout Tuesday, Defense Minister Ehud Barak was in favor of accepting the Egyptian draft. On the other hand, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman argued that Israel's can't back down on essential issues.

Israel told Egypt, at first, it was interested in a cease-fire based on the "quiet-for-quiet" principle, in which Israel demands the cessation of rocket fire and of attacks against IDF troops along the border, as well as stopping attacks from the Sinai facilitated by Gaza militants.

Israel demands that Hamas be held responsible for making sure the Gaza Strip's other groups uphold the Palestinian end of the deal. In return, Israel will stop the IAF strikes and the assassinations of militants. However, Israel demands that it retain its right to take militarily action in order to thwart nefarious operations against it in Gaza.

During the second stage, once the cease-fire is given a trial run of sorts, Israel would be willing to open talks with Egypt on Hamas' demand, especially loosening the blockage on Gaza and opening the border crossings. Israel demands that, at that stage, discussions concerning the smuggling of arms into the Gaza Strip will take place and that Egypt will provide assurances to prevent its taking place.

[visionary]

https://twitter.com/ahauslohner

IDF just hit right next to us, blew out the windows in our hotel room Gaza. AP, AFP, Jazeera bldgs also hit tonight

7:04 PM

https://twitter.com/AymanM

Massive explosion in gaza city 1:26a has knocked out electricity in our building

6:27 PM

Massive explosion by our building this time shattering glass at Deira hotel @NBCNews 2:06 pic.twitter.com/xKK7FVSw

7:07 PM

window in my room has been shattered by an Israeli airstrike on an open field next to our hotel in gaza@NBCNews pic.twitter.com/TrZmxGxE

7:15 PM

https://twitter.com/acarvin

That last blast was way too close for comfort for pretty much every journalist I know in Gaza.

7:20 PM

What is Israel aiming at?

[ixcuincle]

[mikered30]

Here is more of that pinpoint accuracy, skip to 25 seconds, not sure if I would ever stand that close, that was crazy.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bd6_1353438382&p=1

[twa]

Bus in Tel Aviv bombed....I'm sure that will ease tensions

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/international/middle_east/view.bg?articleid=1061176374&srvc=rss

[JMS]

You want to demand that I prove that I have read some claims? (Claims which I think I've made clear I'm skeptical of)?

I think any skepticism in this conflict is warranted. There is no good guy in this fight. no white hat. No real place to hang outrage. Anytime you feel yourself giving over to blind support for one side or the other you have to check yourself at the door.

Do we know if Hamas pad's the casualty figures for children? No we don't. But we do know they are a terrorists organization, which routinely bombs innocent women and children. An organization which used Ambulances to transport combatants making them a legitimate target of war.

An organization which protects their rocket launch sites by positioning them around schools and press facilities. They have no problem in murdering helpless innocents, so padding casualty statistics isn't really out of their wheel house.

On the other hand, more than half the population of Gaza are under 18... I posted 44% under the age of 15 from the CIA factbook. Also Israel is using artillery, bombs and missiles against the densely populated urban area... one of the most densely populated area's in the world is geared to cause civilian casualties. It's inconceivable such an onslaught could not cause significantly more innocent casualties than combatants. Anybody who asserts otherwise is blind. Hell, we know Israel has used white phosphorus on Gaza before in violation of international law. We also know that the rockets being fired from Gaza are militarily insignificant with nearly 1000 rockets fired accounting for fewer than 10 casualties on the Israeli side, meanwhile the Israeli weapons are state of the art military munitions. Israel currently is inflicting 3 orders of magnitude more casualties upon the Palestinians in Gaza than Hamas has been able to muster.

With the one sided nearly useless news coverage from American media sources I think skepticism is really necessary. Hamas is in no way good guys, but Israels actions are frankly out of all proportion by anybody's metrics even Israel's. If you are looking for a good guy in this mess I don't think you can find one. There isn't even one side trying to do the right thing. There are two bad guys only difference is one has better weapons and is able to inflict hundreds of more innocents casualties and is perfectly willing to do so.

---------- Post added November-21st-2012 at 10:48 AM ----------

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 01:43 PM ----------

had it not been for the iron dome a lot more Isreali lives would have been lost.

Iron dome is a joke. $ 60,000 it costs to intercept an unguided rocket which cost less than $1000... And then what does the rocket do, falls to the ground and explodes.

Iron dome has intercepted many rockets, I don't think it's made any significant impact in the casualty rate on the Israeli side. The rockets were a militarily useless terror weapon before Iron shield, and they still are with Iron shield.

If the rockets were targeting a building like the Israeli weapons are then you could make the case Iron shield could protect that building.. But since the rockets are only accurate enough to target a town or broad area; intercepting it

with a missile only to have it fall to the ground and explode in the town is rather senseless.

We designed missile defense to protect against ICBM's. It's economically unfeasible to use it against rockets, as well as militarily senseless. Hezbollah and Hamas are said to have more than 100,000 rockets targeting Israel. You do the math.

Iron Shield is a PR gimmick nothing more.

Isreal has got to be the only country in the world that people expect to just tolerate this kind of activity.

Israel doesn't really have a track record of tolerating much; and it's not like the folks warehoused in Gaza for nearly 50 years by the Israeli's don't have pretty good reasons for being pissed off.

I personally don't think Isreal's retaliation has been strong enough, and I think they are getting ready to open up a huge can if Hamas doesn't give it up in a hurry.

Yeah you would have a very difficult time justifying that statement to me. 1000 casualties vs 3, 1500 air artillery and missile strikes; seems like a pretty strong reaction.

Still strength of the response would seem to be irrelevant. In 2008 Israel invaded Gaza on the ground and spent weeks shooting up the city causing thousands of deaths..

and that was proceeded by weeks of air, artillery and missile strikes. The even used white phosphorus artillery shells against the urban population of Gaza; something that

even shocked the Israeli public. In the end it didn't make any difference. Rocket's continued to fly over the last 4 years, and Hamas is still in power. Innocents bare most

of the impact and Hamas keeps on going. The Israeli response has been very very strong; geared to horrify the Palestinians. And that tactic only works for a short period

of time, getting shorter all the time.

Israel uses this horror tactic because they don't have a better solution. They want to make it so painful to go up against them Hamas or any potential enemy won't risk it.

---------- Post added November-21st-2012 at 11:10 AM ----------

[/color]

Israel is also the only nation in the world practicing apartheid and actively colonizing its neighbor. Do you think that could have any effect on why Israeli aggression (such as the continuing illegal blockade) is viewed in a different light?

Clearly the leaders of the free world disagree with your assesment.

Clearly the leaders of the free world disagree with your assesment.

Actually I think jpyaks3 is correct. Nobody in the world recognizes Israel's right to the occupied territories or Jerusalem as their capital. Not even the United States their closest ally. Likewise Israel is in violation of UN resolutions to allow the displaced from the 1967 war to return to their homes. Israel doesn't allow this that's why there are 1.7 million Palestinians walled up in Gaza, and have been for nearly 50 years.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2452 - 1968

Calls upon the Government of Israel to take effective and immediate steps for the return without delay of those inhabitants who have fled the areas since the outbreak of hostilities

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/unga2452.html

---------- Post added November-21st-2012 at 11:22 AM ----------

Gaza would have a tough sell if you compared apartheid policies

I think this is an argument which will grow in strength. While Jewish people were the majority of the people who lived in Israel and the lands they occupy... ( West Bank, Gaza, Golan heights);

I think the apartheid argument was harder to make. The majority was after all then persecuting the minority along religious cultural grounds. However the demographics in Israel have changed. Today Palestinians are

the majority of the people living in the lands claimed and occupied by Israel. This fact is why Ariel Sharon, no liberal he, broke from the Lakud party and formed Kadima and called for a two state solution. It's only by creating a new state and

stuffing off a sizable group of Palestinians into that state one can ensure a Jewish majority remains in control of Israel. To do otherwise is to highlight Israel as a theocracy, further weaken it's claim as a democracy, and to risk the Apartheid argument

which eventually felled the economy of South Africa which was much stronger than Israel's economy blessed with many more natural and geographic resources.

The more time passes the larger the Palestinian majority grows and the more likelihood the Palestinians won't want an independent state; rather they will simple want the vote. The vote in a country

which their grand fathers, fathers and themselves have grown up in which has systemically discriminated against them. That is one of the 3-4 largest existential threats facing Israel today. The apartheid

argument, which is growing in traction.

3 biggest existential threats to Israel in no particular order.

(1) Demographic bomb and the apartheid argument.

(2) Somebody figuring out a guidance system for the Katusha rockets.

(3) Iran's nuclear weapons

[visionary]

https://twitter.com/mpoppel

REU: CEASEFIRE BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL AGREED -PALESTINIAN OFFICIAL

11:54 AM

REU: EGYPTIAN TELEVISION SAYS NEWS CONFERENCE EXPECTED SOON FROM PRESIDENCY

11:58 AM

EGYPTIAN OFFICIAL CONFIRMS TO REUTERS CEASEFIRE AGREEMENT REACHED BETWEEN PALESTINIANS, ISRAEL

12:02 PM

REU: ISRAEL HAS AGREED TO TRUCE IN GAZA, BUT WILL NOT LIFT BLOCKADE -ISRAELI SOURCES

12:03 PM

https://twitter.com/DannyNis

BREAKING: Egypt to announce a ceasefire tonight- will enter into effect at 12 or tm morning. Israeli source confirms efforts underway.

11:58 AM

We should be skeptical. Ceasefire.

11:59 AM

[abdcskins]

Why are these morons fighting again?

[Larry]

Hopeful.

(this message is too short.)

[JMS]

Why are these morons fighting again?

Why on the Israeli side.... Hamas is in control ( democratically elected ) of Gaza. Hamas is shooting off these pesky rockets into Israel; worse the volume of rockets has been going up. three years ago it was a few hundred, this year is was a few times that many...

Israel is (1) trying to twist Hamas's wrist hard enough to get them to stop or curtail these rockets...(2) Israeli political elections are going to be held in Jan, so this is the governments bid to address this security concern before the election which will be dominated by the politicians actions in this

episode.

On the Palestinian side.... (1) these folk have been warehoused in this slum for 50 years or more and they are pissed about it. (2) The blockade Israel has around Gaza is crushing every aspect of the Palestinians lives there. (3) Folks are still pissed about the 2008 war in which Israel invaded Gaza and shot up the joint killing thousands. (4) Israel also has periodic artillery, missile, and bombing attacks on Gaza, only the Israeli weapons are much more accurate;

Suffice it to say if you are an extremist on either side you have more than enough precedent to justify your continued attacks on the other guy to sway non extremists in your group. Why is almost an unhelpful question. there is always a pretty good "why" answer.

[abdcskins]

Why on the Israeli side.... Hamas is in control ( democratically elected ) of Gaza. Hamas is shooting off these pesky rockets into Israel; worse the volume of rockets has been going up. three years ago it was a few hundred, this year is was a few times that many...

Israel is (1) trying to twist Hamas's wrist hard enough to get them to stop or curtail these rockets...(2) Israeli political elections are going to be held in Jan, so this is the governments bid to address this security concern before the election which will be dominated by the politicians actions in this

episode.

On the Palestinian side.... (1) these folk have been warehoused in this slum for 50 years or more and they are pissed about it. (2) The blockade Israel has around Gaza is crushing every aspect of the Palestinians lives there. (3) Folks are still pissed about the 2008 war in which Israel invaded Gaza and shot up the joint killing thousands. (4) Israel also has periodic artillery, missile, and bombing attacks on Gaza, only the Israeli weapons are much more accurate;

Suffice it to say if you are an extremist on either side you have more than enough precedent to justify your continued attacks on the other guy to sway non extremists in your group.

Thanks, that's actually a really good response.

It's been such a **** show over there for so long, since I was born, that I just don't pay attention anymore. Just put down your guns and live your lives, it really isn't that hard. Forget land or whatever.

I guess my one question would be why is Israel continuing to blockade Gaza or Palestine? And why does Hamas want to shoot up Israel so bad? I guess there is no answer. It all comes down to hatred. They hate each other, plain and simple. Until there is acceptance there will always be war.