If Shanahan's given up, what hope do we really have with him? A pretty darn disappointed and disillusioned long time backer of the HC.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Again, I get why his comments are not appreciated. I didn't appreciate them either.

But...coming into this season, what were people expecting from this team? Everyone knew our secondary was questionable, and then we lost our safeties. Everyone was fine with our front seven, and then we lost our starting DE and Rak.

The offense has been solid, even with a rookie quarterback, when we knew there would be some ups and downs by definition. I guess my question is...what's changed? What has changed so drastically that everyone wants to jump ship? We still have a solid front seven on D returning (with a new coordinator I assume), and I still believe that we are a solid secondary away from competing for the playoffs. Am I way off base here? Am I too much of a homer? I don't know.

[Dallsux]

I'll tell you who you hire - ANYBODY. Because with random Coach X, there's at least some hope this team will one day finish above .500, and maybe even win a playoff game or two. Joe Gibbs was an unknown coach once - maybe we get lucky again. With Mike Shanahan, I have absolutely ZERO faith this team will ever be consistently good. The guy's just here to cash a big fat $7M annual check. There's absolutely no objective evidence that he'll ever turn this team into a serious contender. If you're still on the Shanahan bandwagon at this point, you must like losing.

I think alot of people, myself included, are still looking at his total record as a Head Coach & hoping that somewhere along the line, history will start to make a difference here.

I think the biggest problem with your "hire anybody" idea is that, we've done that before & it hasn't worked out.

A HUGE issue right now is that there is a HUGE mess that needs cleaning up & realistically, the only one who knows the direction we're going is the one who created this enormous mess to begin with. Anyone who comes in here new will be inheriting a ridiculous mess. And honestly, I cannot imagine a coach/coach-hopeful looking at the Redskins thinking, "there's a place I can really shine." At this point, there isn't a decent coach anywhere in the country that would want to come here & take over Shanahan's job. Proven or unproven.

[Bishop Hammer]

Therein lies the conflict with the head coach also being the GM.

We've turned into post Elway Den 2.0. This is exactly what the Broncos were like in Mike's final years there. I don't see things getting better while he's gm as well as coach.

[The Tris]

But...coming into this season, what were people expecting from this team?

I expected a well prepared and professional team. With a veteran coaching staff with plenty of high character veterans in the locker room, I didn't think that was too much to ask. I didn't expect to be the most talented team on the field every week, but I expected to be disciplined.

Instead, we are the most penalized team in the NFL (75 penalties through 9 games). That's indicative of coaching issues, and underscores a general lack of discipline this team has.

Most people weren't as concerned with the record this year, just that we showed improvement and competence. I'm not concerned by a 3-6 record, I'm concerned by a lack of improvement in both a micro and macro sense, and a lack of competence. We're losing games for reasons like having 13 penalties and 10 drops, and that's a problem that warrants concern independent of the Ws and Ls.

[Commander PK]

It's absurd -- does Shanny really think this will motivate the players to perform?.

I considered the whole "reverse psychology" thing a possibility with those comments, but I really think it was a VERY frustrated man temporarily losing control and saying the wrong thing.

[Dallsux]

After 9 games:

2010: 4-5

2011: 3-6

2011: 3-6

Progress baby! This team has found reasons to fail miserably every year. At some point they all just become excuses.

Yeah, every team has injury issues. Every team has depth issues somewhere. Every team deals with the salary cap (although this year we were shorted & next year as well).

I will say that the officiating has seemed to be against us all year & normally I don't say things like that, but when I see a game where Kerrigan is held all game & no flag is ever thrown, but calls against us that are questioned even by the announcers, it's tough to play against 2 opponents. However, we have seen far too many times where Redskins players are undisciplined & don't line up correctly, or make the stupid mistakes that cost us critical yardage. That's on the coaches. Period. Mental errors are on the coaches & there are waaaaaaaay too many of them being made every single week.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I expected a well prepared and professional team. With a veteran coaching staff with plenty of high character veterans in the locker room, I didn't think that was too much to ask. I didn't expect to be the most talented team on the field every week, but I expected to be disciplined.

Instead, we are the most penalized team in the NFL (75 penalties through 9 games). That's indicative of coaching issues, and underscores a general lack of discipline this team has.

Most people weren't as concerned with the record this year, just that we showed improvement and competence. I'm not concerned by a 3-6 record, I'm concerned by a lack of improvement in both a micro and macro sense, and a lack of competence. We're losing games for reasons like having 13 penalties and 10 drops, and that's a problem that warrants concern independent of the Ws and Ls.

That's fair, and I agree with you...the penalties have been mind boggling. I'm really hoping that we step up and play better, because I truly feel a change in direction at head coach would not benefit us as much as some feel. Losing is a cancer...and it's spreading in our locker room. Maybe the bye week will do us some good, and we can look better coming down the stretch.

[Pskins]

It's time to bid adeiu to Shanny and Sons. We have a bona fide superstar in RG3.

Time to court Charles "Chip" Kelly from U of O.

RG3 and Alfred Morris are born to run the no huddle Zone Read.

[Dallsux]

It's time to bid adeiu to Shanny and Sons. We have a bona fide superstar in RG3.

Time to court Charles "Chip" Kelly from U of O.

RG3 and Alfred Morris are born to run the no huddle Zone Read.

I agree that RG3 & Morris are made for a fast paced offense, one that we see in other teams doing a no huddle. It suits them well.

However, it's like I said earlier, no good coach in this entire country wants to come here with the mess they would inherit. No 1st round draft picks for the next 3 years & enormous holes to fill across the board. We need so many positions filled, it's mind numbing.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I agree that RG3 & Morris are made for a fast paced offense, one that we see in other teams doing a no huddle. It suits them well.

However, it's like I said earlier, no good coach in this entire country wants to come here with the mess they would inherit. No 1st round draft picks for the next 3 years & enormous holes to fill across the board. We need so many positions filled, it's mind numbing.

And all the while your just wasting the career of one of the best QB talents to ever enter the pro ranks. And a golden chance for this team to return to the place we all so crave.

This is one Holly mess.

Hail.

[The Tris]

However, it's like I said earlier, no good coach in this entire country wants to come here with the mess they would inherit.

You are crazy if you don't think offensive minds wouldn't be lining up to have the chance of spending their career with RG3.

While there might be some holes that other teams with coaching vancancies don't have, none of them have a transcendent QB talent. Every team that is in the market for a coach has holes. No other teams have Griffin.

[amm0409]

. No 1st round draft picks for the next 3 years & enormous holes to fill across the board.

Thought it was the next two years. We gave this years and the next two.

Think we're going to be Cutting some guys as well like Hall next year as well etc...

[MONTEY]

I agree that RG3 & Morris are made for a fast paced offense, one that we see in other teams doing a no huddle. It suits them well.

However, it's like I said earlier, no good coach in this entire country wants to come here with the mess they would inherit. No 1st round draft picks for the next 3 years & enormous holes to fill across the board. We need so many positions filled, it's mind numbing.

this. sure wish we had a couple of like buttons on the site.

[SkinFaninOKC]

I'm sure his comment had nothing to do with the bye week coming up...you know, when every staff in the league goes back and evaluates their team and decides what and who to keep when it comes to playbook and players???

Nahh....couldn't be that....

Y'all need to take a Midol.

I agree with this, our team looked tired. So much was put into the Giants game, the effort and then the comeback, lost because of a defensive breakdown. At the first of the year I was glad our bye week was week 10 but now think anything later than week 7 is no good. We need the rest sofa king bad.

[Dallsux]

You are crazy if you don't think offensive minds wouldn't be lining up to have the chance of spending their career with RG3.

I didn't say that they wouldn't. My point is more about them inheriting a mess that has far more reach than the offense. RG3 would be the perk. Making sur ehe succeeds here is a tough challenge considering everything.

While there might be some holes that other teams with coaching vancancies don't have, none of them have a transcendent QB talent. Every team that is in the market for a coach has holes. No other teams have Griffin.

And no other team has OL, WR, TE, AND Cap salary problems to deal with all at one time either. Next year, the League will take another $18 million in cap space while we still contend with trying to fill gaps in the OL & WR positions on offense AND we have NO draft picks in the 1st round for the next 2 years, which means that any moves we do make will require MORE wheeling & dealing to get them.

That's not including the enormous task of fixing the defense, which is overwhelmingly bad this year. I have no doubt that there are offensive minds all over the country thinking "Man, I would LOVE the opportunity to coach him (RG3)", but to have to deal with Snyder, the salary cap issues, Snyder, & the defense? Yeah, I just don't believe anyone would truly wnat all that comes with RG3.

[respectgibbs]

2 years of first round picks, not 3.

[DogofWar1]

Everyone deserves some blame, but I think one of the best moves that could happen right now wouldn't be anything from the players or coaches.

It would be Snyder getting our 18M back. He needs to go to war on that cap bs right now.

"But Snyder's an owner, he'd only hurt himself." (and similar arguments)

BS is what that is. Your franchise, that you love, just came under attack for doing nothing wrong. Meanwhile, EVERYONE else did wrong. Snyder is in other businesses besides the Redskins. He can afford to go to war on this, and threaten to take down the whole NFL with him. You know who can't afford it? John Mara, who is only in the football business. Goodell is the same way. If Snyder threatens to bring down the whole house on top of them, they will cave, or end up in the poor house, if not the big house, very quickly.

A gesture like that, even though it does nothing for the immediate on the field product, would, IMO show that the owner still believes in this team and is willing to do anything to make it succeed. And if I'm a player, I want to play harder for that guy than a guy who keeps his mouth shut and allows crap like this penalty to go on in order to make a couple extra bucks.

[redskins55]

This is the difference between Gibbs and Shanahan...

Even when we found ourselves at records like 5-6 or 5-7 with QBs like Mark Brunnell and Todd Collins Gibss never lost faith and never lost the team! Shanahan in three years has never rallied the troops when adversity has come. His inability to motivate players will be his down fall as well as his son's. Not to mention that the lack of talent on the roster can be attributed to his inability to draft. He can't evaluate players without evaluating himself and his coaches!

[D'Pablo]

No one said the cupboard was bare. However, you said:

Now to me, most =/= 6 of 22 starters. It's an exaggeration to make a point that I don't view holds water.

Ironically, he completely rebuild the defense, and took a good offense and made it the best in the NFL. He had built teams (with the help of John Beake). He has a great drafting record, and a mediocre free agent record.

(FWIW, I think Shanahan is lost and is on the verge of losing the team much like Haslett has lost the defense. I do not think, however, that he can not construct a team, as we have empirical proof of him doing just that in Denver, unless you don't count adding 16 of 22 starters "building a team.")

I really don't consider what Shanahan did as building a team. Four of his offensive additions were role-playing veteran free agents that had been successful to some degree with other teams (Mark Schlereth, Tony Jones, Howard Griffith, and Ed McCaffrey). On defense, he also added a number of veterans to supplement the D (Neil Smith, Michael Dean Perry, Keith Traylor, Bill Romanowski, and Alfred Williams). You could say that he bought a super bowl ala the 1990s Cowboys, which has been show to be unsustainable in the current era (see us, 11' Eagles). This leaves Shanahan's crowning probowl achievements as being John Mobley, Rod Smith, and Terrell Davis.

Also, by my count, there were 8 starters (*John Elway, *Shannon Sharpe, *Gary Zimmerman, *Tom Nalen, Brian Habib, Allen Aldridge, Ray Crockett, and *Steve A****er; not to mention stalwart special teamers in *Jason Elam and Tom Rouen; * = probowler) from that 94' team, making it 14 of 22. Tyrone Braxton, a former probowler, was drafted by the Broncos in 87' and left for exactly one season throughout his career to play with another team (94' with Miami)... He too was around for Wade Phillips's 1993 season, which would make it 13 of 22. This is slightly less than half the full starting roster (certainly not 'most' of the roster as I claimed in hyperbole earlier), but the majority of its play-making talent.

Shanahan inherited seven former and future probowlers and bought a few more, which I'd imagine made building pretty easy. Even then, he was guided by a GM. I really do think that if he weren't saddled with GM duties, he'd be a pretty good coach.

btw- awesome sig.

[DogofWar1]

This is the difference between Gibbs and Shanahan...

Even when we found ourselves at records like 5-6 or 5-7 with QBs like Mark Brunnell and Todd Collins Gibss never lost faith and never lost the team! Shanahan in three years has never rallied the troops when adversity has come. His inability to motivate players will be his down fall as well as his son's. Not to mention that the lack of talent on the roster can be attributed to his inability to draft. He can't evaluate players without evaluating himself and his coaches!

The inability to draft argument is being used 2 years too early IMO. Players need time to develop. The 2011 draft might seem like a long time ago, but those guys have less than 2 seasons of football under their belt.

2010 was a "bad" year, in that we only got 2 players out of it. The McNabb trade was indeed ill-advised, and Vinny robbed us of a 3rd a year before through the supplemental draft, but all FOs have bad draft years now and then.

In 2011, Kerrigan was a hit, Jenkins should be a hit next year once he's had a year of playing after his 2011 injury, Hankerson is still growing, but he's shown some promise in every facet except his hands (which I think is more of a focus problem than anything else), and Helu is a speedy playmaker who can complement Morris, when he's healthy.

Everyone else was 5th round or later, and most of those guys have proven to be ok depth. The problem is, with injuries, they're being asked to do way more than they are capable of. Gomes, for example, probably wouldn't be a terrible backup SS for a week here or there with a decent pass rush, but trying to make him a starter when we have no pass rush isn't going to end well. That's true of any backup honestly.

And the jury is still out on 2012 as well. RGIII and Morris are good, but LeRibeus and the rest need a year or two.

If we look back on the 2010-2012 stretch, and all we can say we got out of it was Williams, Perry, Kerrigan, Jenkins, RGIII, and Morris, then yeah, I'd characterize that as very poor drafting. That being said, I think we still have a chance to get starter level play out of Hankerson, Hurt, Neild, LeRibeus, K. Robinson, Gettis, Crawford, Bernstine, and also Minnifield as a UDFA. I know we won't get it from all of them, but I think as a team you want to hit on 3 starters every draft, and 2 depth guys. 2010 won't get there, but we've got 2 starters from 2011, and a bunch of depth that might still develop, and 2 starters from 2012, with, again, a bunch of depth that could still develop.

The key for next year is to hit with our 2nd and 3rd rounders. We need a new RT, S, and CB, and we probably won't address it all in FA. How well our 2nd and 3rd rounders do when pressed into service will go a long way in telling us how good they are at evaluating the talent of early career contributors.

[s0crates]

who knows, maybe the old washed up coach will get us to 8-8 and 3-3 in the divison. at least show some improvement.........

Really. I would love to see some tangible progress, and not in the form of silver linings, but in the form of wins.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

The inability to draft argument is being used 2 years too early IMO. Players need time to develop. The 2011 draft might seem like a long time ago, but those guys have less than 2 seasons of football under their belt.

2010 was a "bad" year, in that we only got 2 players out of it. The McNabb trade was indeed ill-advised, and Vinny robbed us of a 3rd a year before through the supplemental draft, but all FOs have bad draft years now and then.

In 2011, Kerrigan was a hit, Jenkins should be a hit next year once he's had a year of playing after his 2011 injury, Hankerson is still growing, but he's shown some promise in every facet except his hands (which I think is more of a focus problem than anything else), and Helu is a speedy playmaker who can complement Morris, when he's healthy.

Everyone else was 5th round or later, and most of those guys have proven to be ok depth. The problem is, with injuries, they're being asked to do way more than they are capable of. Gomes, for example, probably wouldn't be a terrible backup SS for a week here or there with a decent pass rush, but trying to make him a starter when we have no pass rush isn't going to end well. That's true of any backup honestly.

And the jury is still out on 2012 as well. RGIII and Morris are good, but LeRibeus and the rest need a year or two.

If we look back on the 2010-2012 stretch, and all we can say we got out of it was Williams, Perry, Kerrigan, Jenkins, RGIII, and Morris, then yeah, I'd characterize that as very poor drafting. That being said, I think we still have a chance to get starter level play out of Hankerson, Hurt, Neild, LeRibeus, K. Robinson, Gettis, Crawford, Bernstine, and also Minnifield as a UDFA. I know we won't get it from all of them, but I think as a team you want to hit on 3 starters every draft, and 2 depth guys. 2010 won't get there, but we've got 2 starters from 2011, and a bunch of depth that might still develop, and 2 starters from 2012, with, again, a bunch of depth that could still develop.

The key for next year is to hit with our 2nd and 3rd rounders. We need a new RT, S, and CB, and we probably won't address it all in FA. How well our 2nd and 3rd rounders do when pressed into service will go a long way in telling us how good they are at evaluating the talent of early career contributors.

Thank you sir, for a well thought out analysis. I just refuse to believe that everything is as bad as it seems. I think we have drafted well, and I think those guys will continue to get better and our team will continue to improve. Not everything shows up in the W-L column, and injuries have played a major role.

The big question for me is has Shanny lost the locker room? If he has, his time here will be limited. I'm just holding out hope that the young guys can come along fast enough for the guys in the locker room to see that we've got a team that's worth fighting for. I'm not ready for a regime change.

[DogofWar1]

The big question for me is has Shanny lost the locker room? If he has, his time here will be limited. I'm just holding out hope that the young guys can come along fast enough for the guys in the locker room to see that we've got a team that's worth fighting for. I'm not ready for a regime change.

This is my biggest concern as well. You look at what happened in Tampa last year with Morris, and it wasn't pretty. If the same thing happened here, I don't think Shanahan would be allowed another year, nor should he really be if he's lost the locker room. I do think Shanahan will, under every other circumstance besides losing the locker room, deserve a year 4.

In hockey, it was incredible how fast the turnaround goes sometimes. Bruce was HC of an undefeated Capitals one week, and within a couple weeks was fired and replaced once the locker room turned.

I really hope Shanahan hasn't lost the locker room, and that they come out strong after the bye week. This will be one of the more important bye weeks in recent history.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

This is my biggest concern as well. You look at what happened in Tampa last year with Morris, and it wasn't pretty.

Amen. When it goes, it goes. It's the snowball that can't be stopped.

I think you could tell that Haslett was losing his players earlier in the year. I wonder how much of that has spilled over to the offensive side of the ball and to the head man himself.

[s0crates]

This was our homecoming game. We were celebrating 80 years. We were wearing our snazzy throwback duds. More than 150 Redskins alumni were in attendance. You're supposed to win the homecoming game.

As with any good homecoming game, we had a cupcake match-up against a struggling 1-6 team. You need to win the easy ones.

Coach Shanahan called it a must win game, and it was. Win and we keep ourselves in the hunt for a playoff spot, lose and we start looking forward to next year. You need to win a game like this before the bye week.

Well the 'skins lost the homecoming game. Even with all the alumni watching, even against the dregs of the NFL, and even in a game we had every reason to be fired up for, we could not find a way to win. So you can understand if the fans and coaches are mighty disappointed.

Coach knew it was a must win game at the beginning of the week, and he still knew it when he gave his post game press conference. He all but conceded the season after this loss, while mentioning we still had a slim chance, he admitted it was time to start making evaluations for the future. I can only hope this was some kind of motivational tactic for a team that seems to have given up on him, but I fear it was just brutal honesty. Maybe Shanny has given up.

We basically need to win out if we want to make the playoffs, and it has been over a year since this team put together back-to-back wins, so let's call the odds of that very slim. Maybe I should give up too.

The extremely unlikely could happen of course. Its still technically possible to make a run. We do still have 5 division games remaining on our schedule, including Thanksgiving in Dallas and New York at home on Monday Night Football. There is still something to play for at least, but it is awfully hard to get your hopes up after seeing what we saw today. I took some heart in hearing Griffin's post-game presser. There is a man who has not given up.

Now is not the time to make rash decisions, but I think it is safe to say Shanny needs to show something by year's end in order for the fans to keep the faith. Win on Thanksgiving, win on MNF, finish the year strong, then things look much different than they do immediately after a loss like this. Its hard to imagine the team we saw this weekend doing all that, but with RG3 under center it may be possible.

Make no mistake, losing this one is frustrating and disappointing, and we really are all but out of contention yet again. I am really at my wits end with this team and this regime today. I've been here this long though, and I'm not going anywhere.

Yeah I'm very upset, but I am holding on to the slim hope we will show some actual progress this season.