WP: Robert Griffin III should pass and scramble but cut back on designed runs

[elkabong82]

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I'd hope it was your tone not coming across right, but you follow it up with another accusation of "purposefully being obtuse." There are a few people in this thread who must be doing the same then, since they're agreeing with your adversary to varying extent (I don't really give a **** about the topic).

Anyway, I hope I'm clear. There are ways to argue forcefully, and even bluntly when merited, without violating rules. You need get back on track.

Sorry, didn't read other warning. I hear you though, it's just when all I get in a reply is "that's a lot of hype" it comes across as him being willfully dismissive which pissed me off hence the slightly inflammatory reply, same with what I felt was him feigning ignorance. That being said I do admit my tone wasn't necessary so I'll just back out now to avoid any further mishaps.

Though I will say a scramble is when the QB runs after a pass play has broken down, but if a certain run is an option on a designed play and the QB takes it even when the pass is there, then it is a designed run, since it was an intentional option.

[Oldfan]

Sorry, didn't read other warning. I hear you though, it's just when all I get in a reply is "that's a lot of hype" it comes across as him being willfully dismissive which pissed me off hence the slightly inflammatory reply, same with what I felt was him feigning ignorance. That being said I do admit my tone wasn't necessary so I'll just back out now to avoid any further mishaps.

I apologize for the "hype" remark. I wrote that because your comments sounded like exaggerations but I could have said that in a more thoughtful way.

Though I will say a scramble is when the QB runs after a pass play has broken down, but if a certain run is an option on a designed play and the QB takes it even when the pass is there, then it is a designed run, since it was an intentional option.

I try to avoid arguments on semantics which is what this trivial issue has come down to.

Words can be used in different ways. We need context to determine what they mean. When Shanahan called RG3's reaction a "read," to me, he was saying only that Robert saw that the blocking might offer an opening and he took it. The word "read" there does not have the same meaning as reading the defensive coverages to decide where to throw the ball.

It wasn't a designed option. I know that because coaches don't ask QBs to read the defenses and read the pass rush at the same time. It's impossible. Robert ad libbed on a play designed to be a pass.

[NewCliche21]

It wasn't a designed option. I know that because coaches don't ask QBs to read the defenses and read the pass rush at the same time. It's impossible. Robert ad libbed on a play designed to be a pass.

Preface: I haven't gotten to keep pace with this argument, so forgive me if I'm talking about the wrong play.

Are you referring to the Vikings 76-yard TD? If so, then that's exactly what Griffin did on that play as he explained (he doesn't come across as the person to tell a fishing story after the fact) in the post-game. He knew where his receivers were running and that the secondary was in whatever defense that they were in. He said that he saw them looking at a double-A gap blitz, and that if they missed it, then he was taking off. They both went into the same gap, missed him, and so he took off.

I do not think that this was a designed run or option, it seems like it was more of a Griffin improvisation, but I also am not 100% sure because we were winning and needed to run out the time. However, it was also third and six on our 24, so a pass would make more sense.

For semantics, I define an option as a play wherein the quarterback is running paralell to a nearby running back ("nearby" = within handoff/pitch distance) and the quarterback can choose to handoff/pitch, throw, or keep it. I define a scramble, which is what I believe the 76-yard TD was, as an improvisation by the quarterback. I don't count scrambles as designed runs or options.

[MartinC]

It wasn't a designed option. I know that because coaches don't ask QBs to read the defenses and read the pass rush at the same time. It's impossible. Robert ad libbed on a play designed to be a pass.

I agree with you it was not a designed run - it was a called pass play off which RGIII scrambled. However I dont agree with your comment above that QBs are not asked to read the pass rush and defense at the same time - the pass rush is part of the defense after all. Pre snap identifying who is rushing is one of the key responsibilities for a QB - in this case RGIII saw a double inside blitz. Post snap you certainly dont want your QB looking at the rush but as a QB I can tell you that you need to be aware of the rush and have that clock in your head or sixth sense of who might be unblocked.

In this case its clear to me that we had a pass play called which anticipated in that situation we would see pressure with routes that would open up quickly. RGIII was alert to that and knew he would have to either throw hot or if we did not pick up the blitz or room opened up outside with the blitz inside use his legs. He has that option to use his legs every pass play of course. In the event he saw the lane and took off. The play was not designed as a run, it was not even designed as an either or play it was a called pass off which RGIII ad libed to pick up the critical first down - and then just kept running until he heard the band start playing ....

[Oldfan]

We're talking about the same play NC21 and we see it pretty much the same way.

---------- Post added October-28th-2012 at 11:55 AM ----------

...However I dont agree with your comment above that QBs are not asked to read the pass rush and defense at the same time - the pass rush is part of the defense after all. Pre snap identifying who is rushing is one of the key responsibilities for a QB - in this case RGIII saw a double inside blitz...

I was referring to post snap reads but didn't make that clear.

[Jumbo]

Sorry, didn't read other warning. I hear you though, it's just when all I get in a reply is "that's a lot of hype" it comes across as him being willfully dismissive which pissed me off hence the slightly inflammatory reply, same with what I felt was him feigning ignorance. That being said I do admit my tone wasn't necessary so I'll just back out now to avoid any further mishaps.

Though I will say a scramble is when the QB runs after a pass play has broken down, but if a certain run is an option on a designed play and the QB takes it even when the pass is there, then it is a designed run, since it was an intentional option.

I understand, and know it's rare to have to say anything to you about such stuff, and I appreciate your cooperation.

And in many conversations here and in the tailgate, people using more personalized definitions of terms often get into more friction than needed. Such clarification is often useful.

[Est.1974]

How about sending him down field to catch passes & getting blown up by the safety ?

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Anyone know why RGIII jumps up on shotgun snaps? The snaps aren't always high but he doesn't seem to have a chance to set his feet on quick throws when this happens. My only bone to pick. I think the skins are doing well with the 'talent' that they have on both sides of the ball.

[MonkFan8]

How about sending him down field to catch passes & getting blown up by the safety ?

Sounds like Kyle took their advice.

What a horrible play call that was. Lucky that wasn't helmet to helmet or RG3 would have been out.

I really wish Kyle would stop overthinking things and just let the players play. Not that I blame him for today at all, the receivers clearly crapped the bed, but there are several times each game that I think he could be more simple and be more effective.

[darrelgreenie]

The Denver running game, going back to Terrell Davis has had just six or seven plays, DG. It hasn't needed the read-option to make it go in the past, so there's no reason to think it would need it going forward.

The author of this article is saying what I told you weeks ago but he's providing greater context and stat support for the argument. I think you know that I'm not opposed to the read-option because it's a college scheme. Most pro schemes began in college. I'm opposed because we aren't talking about the added risk to a 250 pound QB with Tebow talent here.

You and he are making the same point but have 2 different arguments supporting it. His main point seems to be that 'scrambles' are more effective then designed runs. But, there are specific schematic advantages that result from the the designed runs that aren't present with scramble.

If your argument is that Griffin could get hurt then you're right in that regard, Griffin faces a greater risk of injury.

In a general sense I agree that the Denver offense doesn't 'need' read option to make it go. But, Mike has never had a QB that matches the physical skillset of our young Robert. And specific to this team there is a serious lack of talent that Griffin masks. So although the Mike scheme doesn't require zone-read to be effective in the general sense; specific to this team its very doubtful we would still have a top 5 yards/scoring offense without zone-read.

[Thiebear]

RG3 does just fine throwing the ball to open receivers.

No trick plays needed, no triple option so he can get smacked.

No running out and catching the ball.

Let him and Morris get into a rhythm, 5 less drops and we keep up at least, and still only have the worst amount of drops this year.

[Bang]

There was an outstanding example of "keeping a defense honest" that they showed in replay today on a 1st half run by Alfred Morris in which James harrison absolutely froze trying to decipher the playfake. It was shown in slow motion, and it was pointed out specifically as to him being frozen, and why he was.

and all this week.. this past week wasan RG3 lovefest all over the networks.

And on the only show that gives any real Xs and Os, they repeatedly showed plays in which Griffin's playfake has frozen sometimes 3 defenders as they try to figure out whether or not he has the ball.

Harrison froze because he saw the same things on film, as did all the players who have been frozen by it already.

the fake demonstrably works, and it works because at other times he's also pulled the ball back and run, or thrown over the top. or even pulled it in to run only to throw at the last second, as we saw him do today.

A lot of the offense is built around this triple threat.

keeping a defense honest means that they are not so sure of themselves that they can sell out to stop any one of them without the risk of being severely beaten by the others.

The defense doesn't really know what to expect.

I agree his designed runs should be limited, and today they were.. he had a couple, but he handed off much more often.

Most importantly is to slide. Take what they give you, and get down.

Scrambles tend to work more because the DBs are downfield and everyone is spread out. Chances are 4 or 5 guys might not even know he's running, or be so far away as to not matter.

~Bang

[Oldfan]

There was an outstanding example of "keeping a defense honest" that they showed in replay today...keeping a defense honest means that they are not so sure of themselves that they can sell out to stop any one of them without the risk of being severely beaten by the others.

Agree: the designed runs were limited today.

Agree: scrambles work well because DBs are downfield. They work especially well when the DBs are trailing in man-to-man with their backs to the QB

Disagree: "Keeping the defense honest" is a worthless phrase since it can have far too many meanings. Yours was the third in this thread by three posters.

[NewCliche21]

How about sending him down field to catch passes & getting blown up by the safety ?

If it would have worked, then it's genius. It didn't, so it's a terrible idea.

So goes football.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

One thing we need less of is RGIII getting blown up by free safeties on pass plays. That could have been a disaster.

[NewCliche21]

One thing we need less of is RGIII getting blown up by free safeties on pass plays. That could have been a disaster.

Or a touchdown.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I don't understand why Morgan didn't just eat it...he saw RGIII was covered. Why throw it?

[Oldfan]

You and he are making the same point but have 2 different arguments supporting it. His main point seems to be that 'scrambles' are more effective then designed runs. But, there are specific schematic advantages that result from the the designed runs that aren't present with scramble.

If your argument is that Griffin could get hurt then you're right in that regard, Griffin faces a greater risk of injury.

In a general sense I agree that the Denver offense doesn't 'need' read option to make it go. But, Mike has never had a QB that matches the physical skillset of our young Robert. And specific to this team there is a serious lack of talent that Griffin masks. So although the Mike scheme doesn't require zone-read to be effective in the general sense; specific to this team its very doubtful we would still have a top 5 yards/scoring offense without zone-read.

The author and I agree that plays where RG3 can get to the sidelines, whether they are scrambles or planned runs are the way to go based on the probabilities of injuries. This assumes that Robert learns to use the sideline wisely. The author gives the stats on how often he gets there. He also adds that scrambles so far have been more effective.

My goal for the team is to keep our outstanding QB healthy until we can give him enough support to help him win championships. Having a top five ranked offense isn't a goal I would select for our team, especially if more risk is involved.

---------- Post added October-28th-2012 at 09:35 PM ----------

One thing we need less of is RGIII getting blown up by free safeties on pass plays. That could have been a disaster.

Had RG3 been seriously hurt, that playcall would have lived in infamy with the Swinging Gate.

[MartinC]

I don't understand why Morgan didn't just eat it...he saw RGIII was covered. Why throw it?

Thats what you get when you have a non QB throwing the ball - they tend to throw it come what may. I have no problem with the call, could have been a huge play, but its one that you only call once and I doubt we see it again.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Or a touchdown.

I figured we were eventually going to go with a play like that.

The big problem with option passes is that the RB or WR almost never eats the ball or throws it away. They are always going to try to see the play through - even if it double covered.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

The author and I agree that plays where RG3 can get to the sidelines, whether they are scrambles or planned runs are the way to go based on the probabilities of injuries. This assumes that Robert learns to use the sideline wisely. The author gives the stats on how often he gets there. He also adds that scrambles so far have been more effective.

My goal for the team is to keep our outstanding QB healthy until we can give him enough support to help him win championships. Having top five offense isn't a goal I would select for our team, especially if more risk is involved.

---------- Post added October-28th-2012 at 09:35 PM ----------

Had RG3 been seriously hurt, that playcall would have lived in infamy with the Swinging Gate.

OF...Ppl would be at Kyle's door with pitchforks

[Bang]

Disagree: "Keeping the defense honest" is a worthless phrase since it can have far too many meanings. Yours was the third in this thread by three posters.

Fair enough,, seems a semantics argument.

How about " that third threat keeps a defense guessing".

~Bang

[Oldfan]

Fair enough,, seems a semantics argument.

How about " that third threat keeps a defense guessing".

Much better.

[WVSkinsfan]

Get rid of the designed runs/option b/c he is'nt going to last in this league 6 years b/c of the hard its he would be taking.The man is fast enough to scramble if he has to and he would be an even better qb imo if they did take away the design/option plays.

[darrelgreenie]

He also adds that scrambles so far have been more effective.

My goal for the team is to keep our outstanding QB healthy until we can give him enough support to help him win championships. Having a top five ranked offense isn't a goal I would select for our team, especially if more risk is involved.

Yes, scrambles are more 'statistically' effective then designed QB runs based on his metric. But those stats don't/can't quantify or measure the impact zone-read plays have on the entire offense (running game, pass protection and play-action). And its that overall impact that allows use to have our current offensive success. (and neither here nor there statistically Griffin's greatest risk of injury by concussion are on scrambles headed towards out of bounds.)

Imo the statement that scrambles are more effective then designed QB runs is maybe unintentionally spurious because it leads to the conclusion:

So that’s my recommendation for Griffin: fewer designed runs replaced by pass plays, perhaps designed with a scramble in mind. Especially if the defense is in man-to-man coverage or if his receivers can clear out one side of the field, Griffin should have an automatic green light to tuck it and run down the sideline

A scramble by its very nature is an adlib/unpredictable outcome of another called play therefore its one thing to want more scrambles but its quite another to actually 'have' more scrambles plays. The more scramble plays there are the more predictable it becomes--> defenses will then account for them thus decreasing their efficacy. The irony of Burkes suggestion is that he's in essence trying to turn a scramble into a designed run.

Also, I wonder what Burke would say if scrambles are more effective the running game (my guess is they are) would his argument extend to replacing all running plays with passing plays because of the potential for scrambles?

My view is that football is a game of attrition where virtually everyone gets hurt; QBs are no different. They could point to Vick as an example of the high risk of having a high number of QB scrambles. You could argue that scrambling is just as risky if not moreso then designed runs.

And if Griffin is not going to have designed runs then he's gonna be scrambling more.

One could argue that being a pocket passer carries its own inherent risks.

Matt Schaub is a pocket passer but he's been injured almost as often as Vick, a scrambling QB.

On the other hand you could point to Aaron Rodgers as a counter example to both because despite a high number of QB scrambles he's been injured less then both Vick and Schaub.

My round about point is this injuries are unpredicable and unavoidable. People like to frame injuries as being caused by a certain playing 'style' but regardless of position or playing style football players, QBs included, will eventually get hurt.

Imo Griffin needs to be more judicious with when he chooses to take hits vs getting down. Griffin imo is already learning how to avoid taking uneccesary hits and how to protect himself during the unavoidable hits. Its not a question of size either Russell Wilson is a smaller QB then Griffin but has been very good in this regard. Conversely, Jake Locker despite being bigger then Wilson and Griffin is more reckless then Griffin.

I would like this offense to keep the zone-read but run it from spread formations and reduce the number of speed and triple option.