WP: Robert Griffin III should pass and scramble but cut back on designed runs

[Oldfan]

The runs need context. The 8 out of 38 designed runs don't say how many were slides, only looks at runs out of bounds. Sneaks are not accounted for, nor are TDs, since some of the designed runs went for TDs.

The designed runs are also a reason we are so successful in the redzone.

And simply saying "oh, pass more" is one thing, but it ignores our WR situation currently. I'm sure Shanahan's would rather us pass more since RG3 has a great arm, but Hankerson is our only current deep threat and he is very inconsistent. Hopefully Robinson gets healthy soon and can be more of a factor, so far he's been limited coming back from injury.

Bottom line, the offense is working, and the coaches obviously don't want RG3 hurt either, but the runs are part of the gameplan and eliminating them means eliminating a successful part of the offense and limits potential in other aspects of the offense too, and doing so out of fear means playing scared, and that in and of itself is a recipe for disaster.

Minimizing risks is not "playing scared." Risks and reward have to be weighed. I think you have a good point when you imply that the designed runs in goal to go situations should be kept because those runs have a much higher value. But, in general, I agree with the author.

[KCClybun]

We are running less and that is good, but none would be better.

If you are using "paranoia" to describe wanting to take no more risks than absolutely necessary with a very valuable player, then I'm paranoid.

\

Yes. Yes you are.

And you might as well suck it up, because as long as its working, Kyle's going to keep running it.

[elkabong82]

Minimizing risks is not "playing scared." Risks and reward have to be weighed. I think you have a good point when you imply that the designed runs in goal to go situations should be kept because those runs have a much higher value. But, in general, I agree with the author.

Minimizing risk to the point you completely eliminate a facet of the game that is not only working but allows other facets of the offense to work better by keeping the defense honest (and you said no runs would be ideal) is playing scared and neuters the offense.

[Oldfan]

\

Yes. Yes you are.

And you might as well suck it up, because as long as its working, Kyle's going to keep running it.

If Kyle only cares about what is working and ignores the risk to RG3, then he is one dumb OC.

[Laxpunk2006]

This article tends to ignore that the one time Robert has actually gotten hurt was on a scramble where he didn't protect himself.

Noticed that as well.

I also think the author didn't consider the fact that a scramble is then defended by a defense that has already dropped into coverage with roughly half the defense moving away from the line of scrimmage. At this point there should be more depth between the QB and defense as well as larger lanes to run through. If he can get past the rush/DL then there is daylight to pull off a big run.

On a designed run the defense is at less of a disadvantage when trying to defend a QB run.

Both are important parts of the offense and benefit one another. I don't believe that we need to be doing x more or y less. It's situational and whatever the numbers are at the end of the day are what they are.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

I was on the side of stopping so many designed runs (RG3 has so many weapons, he doesn't really need it, etc.), until I heard Shanahan explain how they actually make him **safer.**

I forgot how he put it, but keeping the D more on its heels, more unsure--plus RG's on the move and able to make decisions on the move rather than being a target with his eyes looking for a receiver, trying to avoid an already-present threat (scrambling) etc.

[Oldfan]

Minimizing risk to the point you completely eliminate a facet of the game that is not only working but allows other facets of the offense to work better by keeping the defense honest (and you said no runs would be ideal) is playing scared and neuters the offense.

That's a lot of hype.

[Oldfan]

...I also think the author didn't consider the fact that a scramble is then defended by a defense that has already dropped into coverage with roughly half the defense moving away from the line of scrimmage. At this point there should be more depth between the QB and defense as well as larger lanes to run through. If he can get past the rush/DL then there is daylight to pull off a big run....

So, you are adding another point to the author's argument. Are you not?

[Saqs]

That doesn't even make sense since a huge part of what a scramble is is its undesigned nature. It is not scrambling if the QB scrambles by design.

Agreed.

[clarkskin]

I think the whole "taking too many hits" thing is being overblown because of how Vick has never been able to stay healthy. I trust his speed and athleticism to avoid taking big hits and think he's safter in space as opposed to being blindsided in the pocket and having a broken collarbone or something of that nature. I realize he was hurt on the run, but that was avoidable and he's acknowledged that.

[Oldfan]

I was on the side of stopping so many designed runs (RG3 has so many weapons, he doesn't really need it, etc.), until I heard Shanahan explain how they actually make him **safer.**

I forgot how he put it, but keeping the D more on its heels, more unsure--plus RG's on the move and able to make decisions on the move rather than being a target with his eyes looking for a receiver, trying to avoid an already-present threat (scrambling) etc.

And you bought that? C'mon, Man.

Which position entails more risk of injury, running back or quarterback? Which have longer careers?

---------- Post added October-27th-2012 at 12:54 PM ----------

I think the whole "taking too many hits" thing is being overblown because of how Vick has never been able to stay healthy. I trust his speed and athleticism to avoid taking big hits and think he's safter in space as opposed to being blindsided in the pocket and having a broken collarbone or something of that nature. I realize he was hurt on the run, but that was avoidable and he's acknowledged that.

The rules protect a QB in the pocket. That's why QBs have much longer careers today than they did going back a couple of decades.

[KCClybun]

If Kyle only cares about what is working and ignores the risk to RG3, then he is one dumb OC.

Like I said; we're running far fewer designed runs than usual, and Kyle seems to be very careful with picking and choosing his spots where to use it. He's managing Robert's running effectively, and Robert hast taken nearly as many hits over the last few weeks as he did in the first quarter of the season.

Until Robert actually gets hurt on a designed run, I'm not going to sit and fret every Sunday about the designed runs. The offense works in part because Robert runs so effectively, Kyle has been very smart about when and how to use him in the run game, and Robert is getting better and better about sliding and getting down on the designed runs as well as the scrambles.

You don't have to like the designed runs. Tough. We're sticking with them and we've been far smarter about when to call them.

[Oldfan]

...You don't have to like the designed runs. Tough. We're sticking with them and we've been far smarter about when to call them.

Well, at least you admit it was dumb before. That's a step in the right direction.

[dposton]

Good debate. I would hate to lose RGIII or limit him and what he can become. These are the foundation years for his HOF stats and induction. With that being said, I do have visions of LaVar Arrington bearing down on Troy Aikman. Aikman never returned to the old Troy and he was going out of bounds when LaVar crushed him. Just saying. Don't want anything like this to happen to RGIII. First franchise quarterback drafted by Redskins since Sammy Baugh. We don't need to go through another 50 or more years waiting for the next franchise quarterback. Do all we can to keep Robert for as long as we can and then start preparing for his succession. Also, this is his rookie year. Although he is tremendous at reading defenses, he will become better. As will his passing and hopefully his accuracy. He is already at 71%. If he becomes better he starts to get into the Kenny Anderson (Cincinnati Bengals) league. If he can do that he will not have to have designed runs. But the threat of that passing accuracy with the designed runs and more weapons than we have now is going to be lethal to other defenses.

[mojo]

Like I said; we're running far fewer designed runs than usual, and Kyle seems to be very careful with picking and choosing his spots where to use it. He's managing Robert's running effectively, and Robert hast taken nearly as many hits over the last few weeks as he did in the first quarter of the season.

Until Robert actually gets hurt on a designed run, I'm not going to sit and fret every Sunday about the designed runs. The offense works in part because Robert runs so effectively, Kyle has been very smart about when and how to use him in the run game, and Robert is getting better and better about sliding and getting down on the designed runs as well as the scrambles.

You don't have to like the designed runs. Tough. We're sticking with them and we've been far smarter about when to call them.

I agree with this. It seems the designed run calls have been rapidly declining since the Cincy game but he's too electric to eliminate them completely.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Griffin was injured on a run that wasn't designed and most of the worst hits he's taken have come on plays where he was scrambling when there was no designed run, did not actually have the ball during a designed fake, had an opportunity to get out of bounds or slide before the hit but did not take it, or got crushed while standing in the pocket. Furthermore, the frequency of those hits has reduced with each passing week. Color me unconcerned until that trend reverses itself.

[Oldfan]

Replay to Enter Apotheosis:

I recall Mark Barron nailing him twice on designed runs in the TB game. Barron was fined for one of them for a body slam. Then, I don't recall the lineman's name who hit him the hardest and caused him to fumble before he could pitch out on the option. Robert took longer to get up from that hit than he did on the one that caused the concussion.

[elkabong82]

That's a lot of hype.

No, it's truth, and has been seen in each game. The threat of RG3 running, not just on a scramble, but on a designed run, is very real and does keep defenses honest. His 76 yard TD run was an option of the play, and defenses have to fear that. If you had your way, that TD would never have happened. Taking away an important part of the offense because of fear is ridiculous. Injuries are always going to be a risk, but not using RG3 to his full potential, especially out of fear, is playing scared and is not smart at all. Even staying in the pocket there is an injury risk for QBs. Manning had his neck injury, Brady missed a season, so did Carson Palmer, all non-mobile QBs.

If you're just going to dismiss my opinion, despite it being well-supported, I'll return the favor. Your opinion is all hype. It is based off a fear of "what if" and nothing more. My opinion is based on the reality that the offense as is has been working great. Your opinion seems to constantly harp on Shanahan, and seems to always be based on hype and speculation. "What if RG3 gets injured," "Shanny only cares about offensive ranking." And your only backing on that one was what a disgruntled player, Plummer, had said. So really you're the last person who should be claiming that another's opinion is "a lot of hype."

[RedskinsInFebruary]

And you bought that? C'mon, Man.

Which position entails more risk of injury, running back or quarterback? Which have longer careers?

I don't think that's a valid analogy--running backs almost never slide before getting hit like RG could after gaining his yards, e.g.

Wish I could recall exactly how Shanahan put it, but it was convincing. I've played enough backyard football to see how I'm more in control of a situation as a runner than as someone trying to negotiate options like scrambling while going through checkdowns, simultaneously positioning my body to throw an accurate pass, etc. I can also see how it presents more problems that keep a D from teeing off on me.

[Oldfan]

No, it's truth, and has been seen in each game. The threat of RG3 running, not just on a scramble, but on a designed run, is very real and does keep defenses honest.

What exactly do you mean by "keeping a defense honest?" Can you be less vague, please?

His 76 yard TD run was an option of the play...

No it wasn't. RG3 was in the shotgun and the rush came hard but allowed him an opening up the middle. That was a scramble.

Taking away an important part of the offense because of fear is ridiculous. Injuries are always going to be a risk, but not using RG3 to his full potential, especially out of fear, is playing scared and is not smart at all. Even staying in the pocket there is an injury risk for QBs. Manning had his neck injury, Brady missed a season, so did Carson Palmer, all non-mobile QBs.

So, you see no more risk for a running QB than a pocket passer? I think I see why we have a difference of opinion on this.

---------- Post added October-27th-2012 at 03:28 PM ----------

I don't think that's a valid analogy--running backs almost never slide before getting hit like RG could after gaining his yards, e.g.

Wish I could recall exactly how Shanahan put it, but it was convincing. I've played enough backyard football to see how I'm more in control of a situation as a runner than as someone trying to negotiate options like scrambling while going through checkdowns, simultaneously positioning my body to throw an accurate pass, etc. I can also see how it presents more problems that keep a D from teeing off on me.

I heard the Shanahan quote and thought it was a crock. Most good RBs can see and avoid the hard hits, but running the ball is a high-risk venture. I think running the option is fine for college QBs who don't play 16 games plus playoffs against 260 pounders who run 4.5 forties.

[Est.1974]

No it wasn't. RG3 was in the shotgun and the rush came hard but allowed him an opening up the middle. That was a scramble.

Taking this into account OF, how many of RG3's 6 TD's do you think have come on scrambles ? The original article states that on his scrambles, Griffin made it out of bounds 17 of 20 times. Are his TD's in the 17 ? doesn't seem to add up to me / or the original stats don't have an accurate split on designed play / scramble.

[Oldfan]

Taking this into account OF' date=' how many of RG3's 6 TD's do you think have come on scrambles ? The original article states that on his scrambles, Griffin made it out of bounds 17 of 20 times. Are his TD's in the 17 ? doesn't seem to add up to me / or the original stats don't have an accurate split on designed play / scramble.[/quote']I don't have that stat, but earlier in this thread, I granted a poster's point that some of RG3's TDs were designed runs and those had a greater value. Therefore, the argument for keeping them in the playbook is strong.

This is a risk/reward decision.

[KCClybun]

What exactly do you mean by "keeping a defense honest?" Can you be less vague, please?.

It forces linebackers to pause and determine who has the ball; if it's RG3, the running back, or is a keeper. That momentary freeze has been killing Linebackers, which is why we keep hitting the tight ends on the same kind of passes. The defense has to determine what kind of play it is rather than just play and react.

[Oldfan]

It forces linebackers to pause and determine who has the ball; if it's RG3, the running back, or is a keeper. That momentary freeze has been killing Linebackers, which is why we keep hitting the tight ends on the same kind of passes. The defense has to determine what kind of play it is rather than just play and react.

Okay. I understand that the zone-read option can be effective. If it wasn't, we would have nothing to debate.

The questions are HOW effective are they -- and are they worth the risk? The author and I agree that the risk is too great for the reward. He offered his stats in support.

[Dirt]

Well, the designed run within 10 yds has pretty much been an automatic TD so far. I don't think I've seen him try and fail that once.

It's easy to remember Vick going up the middle within 10 yards and having 2 of our Redskins crush him from each side and destroy his ribs. But that was Vick scrambling. Our designed runs have blockers in place to keep guys from crushing RG3. It's not guaranteed to save him a hit, but it's at least thought out.

So with that in mind, I'd much rather the runs be designed in that instance. The scrambles, he just has to get out of bounds and he's shown he does that for the most part.