WP: Plan for hunting terrorists signals U.S. intends to keep adding names to kill lists

[luckydevil]

This discussion aside, i am deadset against using them in the US in pretty much any capacity. I do not believe they should be used for surveillance, traffic control, patrol, and especially not armed.

~Bang

Oh it's coming. This is big business

[Redskins Diehard]

I defnitely understand the concern.. but i also recognize this isn't anything close to a conventional enemy, and communications these days are cheap, instantaeous and global. What we (us) know, they also know.

I don't see how it can be very transparent, and I don't see how we really have any choice but o either stop altogether, or trust those in charge of doing it right.

Not the best place to be, but again, any ideas on how to do it better?

This discussion aside, i am deadset against using them in the US in pretty much any capacity. I do not believe they should be used for surveillance, traffic control, patrol, and especially not armed.

~Bang

I guess that depends on how you define "better". There are certainly other ways. If we can hit them with a UAV strike we can really do anything we want..kill, capture, etc. Probably nothing as convenient as Predator strike. So if convenience is what we are looking for and can disregard an axiological component then there may not be a better COA

As for transparency...while I would disagree 100% with any release of sources or methods information I think it is absolutely possible to be more transparent on exactly what is required to end up on the list. And what is the calculus for deciding on kill or capture.

I just have a tough time understanding how:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

can be viewed as inconsistent with American values to such an extent that they are banned in all cases....yet this program is okay.

[visionary]

By the way, here's a really interesting article that I saw earlier about the program and the guy in charge of a lot of this.

I suggest reading the whole thing.

I found it by accident earlier on twitter and kept going back to it all night to finish reading it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-veteran-john-brennan-has-transformed-us-counterterrorism-policy/2012/10/24/318b8eec-1c7c-11e2-ad90-ba5920e56eb3_print.html

A CIA veteran transforms U.S. counterterrorism policy

In his windowless White House office, presidential counterterrorism adviser John O. Brennan is compiling the rules for a war the Obama administration believes will far outlast its own time in office, whether that is just a few more months or four more years.

The “playbook,” as Brennan calls it, will lay out the administration’s evolving procedures for the targeted killings that have come to define its fight against al-Qaeda and its affiliates. It will cover the selection and approval of targets from the “disposition matrix,” the designation of who should pull the trigger when a killing is warranted, and the legal authorities the administration thinks sanction its actions in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and beyond.

“What we’re trying to do right now is to have a set of standards, a set of criteria, and have a decision-making process that will govern our counterterrorism actions — we’re talking about direct action, lethal action — so that irrespective of the venue where they’re taking place, we have a high confidence that they’re being done for the right reasons in the right way,” Brennan said in a lengthy interview at the end of August.

A burly 25-year CIA veteran with a stern public demeanor, Brennan is the principal architect of a policy that has transformed counterterrorism from a conventional fight centered in Afghanistan to a high-tech global effort to track down and eliminate perceived enemies one by one.

What was once a disparate collection of tactics — drone strikes by the CIA and the military, overhead surveillance, deployment of small Special Forces ground units at far-flung bases, and distribution of military and economic aid to threatened governments — has become a White House-centered strategy with Brennan at its core.

[Larry]

I actually applaud the effort to create rules for this kind of thing. I've said for some time that things like these strikes, an torture and making people disappear, are things where I think we need the capability, but there need to be rules, too.

Morally and constitutionally, though, I think that the rule making and oversight processes need to involve the legislative and judicial branches. And the people.

[Bang]

I guess that depends on how you define "better". There are certainly other ways. If we can hit them with a UAV strike we can really do anything we want..kill, capture, etc. Probably nothing as convenient as Predator strike. So if convenience is what we are looking for and can disregard an axiological component then there may not be a better COA

As for transparency...while I would disagree 100% with any release of sources or methods information I think it is absolutely possible to be more transparent on exactly what is required to end up on the list. And what is the calculus for deciding on kill or capture.

I just have a tough time understanding how:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

can be viewed as inconsistent with American values to such an extent that they are banned in all cases....yet this program is okay.

I would not say 'convenience' is the goal.. safety of our people is.

The hardest part of fighting any war is you lose people. Every soldier in history has tried to figure out how to fight wthout being hurt.

Drones allow for the dream goal of warriors.. to fight from positions of relative safety and project their ability to kill the enemy long distance.

~Bang

[SkinsHokieFan]

Oh it's coming. This is big business

Yes it is

I got a call just today from a company who is set to make big money helping to design the lasers on the next generation of the drones.

I am tempted to interview there just in case sequestration does hit. This is where much of our "modern military" is headed, UAV's.

[visionary]

Yes it is

I got a call just today from a company who is set to make big money helping to design the lasers on the next generation of the drones.

I am tempted to interview there just in case sequestration does hit. This is where much of our "modern military" is headed, UAV's.

Saw this yesterday:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/10/navys-laser-weapons-just-2-years-away-admiral-says/

Navy’s Laser Weapons Just 2 Years Away, Admiral Says

Earlier this year Klunder’s office had said the Navy was four years away from mounting the laser weapons, but he told WIRED Monday that recent tests had been “very successful” and the Navy has figured out physics issues that plagued early concepts.

“We’re well past physics,” he said. “We’re just going through the integration efforts… Hopefully that tells you we’re well mature, and we’re ready to put these on naval ships.”

The weapons are designed to track and fire on threats to a warship that could include anything from armed drones and small “swarm” boats to incoming missiles and aircraft.

[visionary]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/remote-us-base-at-core-of-secret-operations/2012/10/25/a26a9392-197a-11e2-bd10-5ff056538b7c_story.html

Remote U.S. base at core of secret operations

This is the third of three articles.

DJIBOUTI CITY, Djibouti — Around the clock, about 16 times a day, drones take off or land at a U.S. military base here, the combat hub for the Obama administration’s counterterrorism wars in the Horn of Africa and the Middle East.

Some of the unmanned aircraft are bound for Somalia, the collapsed state whose border lies just 10 miles to the southeast. Most of the armed drones, however, veer north across the Gulf of Aden to Yemen, another unstable country where they are being used in an increasingly deadly war with an al-Qaeda franchise that has targeted the United States.

Camp Lemonnier, a sun-baked Third World outpost established by the French Foreign Legion, began as a temporary staging ground for U.S. Marines looking for a foothold in the region a decade ago. Over the past two years, the U.S. military has clandestinely transformed it into the busiest Predator drone base outside the Afghan war zone, a model for fighting a new generation of terrorist groups.

The Obama administration has gone to extraordinary lengths to conceal the legal and operational details of its targeted-killing program. Behind closed doors, painstaking debates precede each decision to place an individual in the cross hairs of the United States’ perpetual war against al-Qaeda and its allies.

Increasingly, the orders to find, track or kill those people are delivered to Camp Lemonnier. Virtually the entire 500-acre camp is dedicated to counterterrorism, making it the only installation of its kind in the Pentagon’s global network of bases.

Haven't had time to read through more than the first page on this one.

Maybe if I have time tomorrow.

[Redskins Diehard]

I would not say 'convenience' is the goal.. safety of our people is.

The hardest part of fighting any war is you lose people. Every soldier in history has tried to figure out how to fight wthout being hurt.

Drones allow for the dream goal of warriors.. to fight from positions of relative safety and project their ability to kill the enemy long distance.

~Bang

Quite an assertion you make about the dream goal of warriors. I am not sure if my fellow paratroopers and I would fit into the category of "warriors" but I can tell you that fighting from positions of relative safety and projecting the ability to kill the enemy long distance was a dream goal. It may be a goal of the Air Force. It may be a goal of the Navy. I can promise you it is not a pervasive mentality in the Army I was in or among the Marines I served with.

---------- Post added October-26th-2012 at 06:32 AM ----------

By the way, here's a really interesting article that I saw earlier about the program and the guy in charge of a lot of this.

I suggest reading the whole thing.

I found it by accident earlier on twitter and kept going back to it all night to finish reading it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-veteran-john-brennan-has-transformed-us-counterterrorism-policy/2012/10/24/318b8eec-1c7c-11e2-ad90-ba5920e56eb3_print.html

I agree with Brennan on where this program belongs to the extent that we are actually going to have it. Placing it in the military(under title 10) will fundamentally change the way in which it is run from beginning to end. My question is why haven't we been able to get it there yet?

[Renegade7]

I'm proud that we're starting to formalize how we go about these drone strikes. At the same time, the collateral damage coming from them in terms of civilian causalities and public perception IS stiring the anger that helps create new terrorists. Even though Romney brought it up first in the last debate, I feel even Obama understands that we can't just kill them all. We have to continue to make the effort to stop these people from becoming terrorists in the first place through education and economic oppurtunity. And as much as it seems we're trying to avoid our own casualties, I don't want to see us get away from actually going in with special forces and assassinating people. I don't want to be like Israel and blow up an entire building in a busy population center just to get one guy. We've already made mistakes like blowing up weddings before...

[LD0506]

For all the pastel colored dreams of the warm-n-fuzzy crowd, these threats are real and we have to address them. Those that think that the whole world would just be a summercamp singalong if only the big bad US military would stop interfering are clueless. US military might, overwhelming power and the threat thereof has been the source of more peace on this planet than any other element in history. The success of our military is the very reason why we have seen radical opposition morph into its current form, unidentified, untraceable, swimming in the sea of whatever populace they have infected. Tanks, planes, missiles, etc., they know how that battle is going to come out, they had to find some other way and they have. So, we find some other way to oppose them. At the moment it is drones, it will be something else in a decade, but the underlying realities will still be the same.

Now, having had my little rah-rah rant, power corrupts, and the most important factors in this is are the basic protections of our system, an elected govt with public interest and systemic review processes overseeing the whole schmear , questions get asked, articles get published, the facts get out sooner or later and someone is held accountable. What passes for nations in a lot of places have little or none of this. We too often take for granted what we have and why we have it.

[Redskins Diehard]

For all the pastel colored dreams of the warm-n-fuzzy crowd, these threats are real and we have to address them. Those that think that the whole world would just be a summercamp singalong if only the big bad US military would stop interfering are clueless. US military might, overwhelming power and the threat thereof has been the source of more peace on this planet than any other element in history. The success of our military is the very reason why we have seen radical opposition morph into its current form, unidentified, untraceable, swimming in the sea of whatever populace they have infected. Tanks, planes, missiles, etc., they know how that battle is going to come out, they had to find some other way and they have. So, we find some other way to oppose them. At the moment it is drones, it will be something else in a decade, but the underlying realities will still be the same.

Now, having had my little rah-rah rant, power corrupts, and the most important factors in this is are the basic protections of our system, an elected govt with public interest and systemic review processes overseeing the whole schmear , questions get asked, articles get published, the facts get out sooner or later and someone is held accountable. What passes for nations in a lot of places have little or none of this. We too often take for granted what we have and why we have it.

Those aren't the only clueless people out there. Some people don't even realize that this program isn't being run by the military! Some people don't realize that the rules of engagement that govern the behavior of our big bad military don't apply to this program.

Some of us that have concerns about this actually don't live in the pastel colored world you speak of. And actually have done something to address these threats beyond just cheering for our president.

But you are right...many people are clueless

[SkinsHokieFan]

Those aren't the only clueless people out there. Some people don't even realize that this program isn't being run by the military! Some people don't realize that the rules of engagement that govern the behavior of our big bad military don't apply to this program.

Some of us that have concerns about this actually don't live in the pastel colored world you speak of. And actually have done something to address these threats beyond just cheering for our president.

But you are right...many people are clueless

The secrecy is what is stunning. It is brazen how this is essentially Dick Cheney on steroids

From the article Visionary posted

The Obama administration has gone to extraordinary lengths to conceal the legal and operational details of its targeted-killing program.

It doesn't help that these things are actually quite dangerous

Drones also pose an aviation risk next door in Somalia. Over the past year, remote-controlled aircraft have plunged into a refugee camp, flown perilously close to a fuel dump and almost collided with a large passenger plane over Mogadishu, the capital, according to a United Nations report.

[DaGoonie55]

I'm proud that we're starting to formalize how we go about these drone strikes . . . We have to continue to make the effort to stop these people from becoming terrorists in the first place through education and economic oppurtunity. And as much as it seems we're trying to avoid our own casualties, I don't want to see us get away from actually going in with special forces and assassinating people. I don't want to be like Israel and blow up an entire building in a busy population center just to get one guy. We've already made mistakes like blowing up weddings before...

Renegade, the simple fact that you are able to come on here and voice your opinion just created 17 terrorists. I was on ground in Iraq and can tell you. There is no difference between Mosul and Yuma, AZ. A big population? Check. Good people? Check. Amazing food? Check. People who would do harm to others because of some ill-conceived belief? Check. Drone warfare / assasinations are to target a small, discreet enemy. That is what we are fighting. It is much cheaper to run drones than send 3000 soldiers and equipment over there and hunt them down. You want to catch a fox, you have to think like a fox. Having me and my goons standing on a street corner or on never ending presence patrols isn't going to bring them out. You have to lull them to sleep (like they try to do to us) and hit them when they aren't watching.

I'm with Jumbo - use them in america, but don't arm the drones. Nowhere in america is it ok for a hellfire missile to explode than on a military impact area (training). If you positively identify someone in america, let the local boys get them.

[Redskins Diehard]

Renegade, the simple fact that you are able to come on here and voice your opinion just created 17 terrorists. I was on ground in Iraq and can tell you. There is no difference between Mosul and Yuma, AZ. A big population? Check. Good people? Check. Amazing food? Check. People who would do harm to others because of some ill-conceived belief? Check. Drone warfare / assasinations are to target a small, discreet enemy. That is what we are fighting. It is much cheaper to run drones than send 3000 soldiers and equipment over there and hunt them down. You want to catch a fox, you have to think like a fox. Having me and my goons standing on a street corner or on never ending presence patrols isn't going to bring them out. You have to lull them to sleep (like they try to do to us) and hit them when they aren't watching.

I'm with Jumbo - use them in america, but don't arm the drones. Nowhere in america is it ok for a hellfire missile to explode than on a military impact area (training). If you positively identify someone in america, let the local boys get them.

The program this article discusses really isn't about Iraq. I don't think I've read about one instance where one of the armed UAV's was actually used in Iraq. And I don't expect we will. In fact, I don't think I've read about armed UAV's being used in Afghanistan either.

To catch a fox you do have to think like a fox. Or to catch a islamic terrorist you do have to attempt to think like them(first of all understand why they have a "problem with us"....and it isn't our freedom of speech). But you don't have to act like one.

[twa]

we have armed drones in use in Afghanistan and Iraq now,and have had for awhile

[Renegade7]

Renegade, the simple fact that you are able to come on here and voice your opinion just created 17 terrorists. I was on ground in Iraq and can tell you. There is no difference between Mosul and Yuma, AZ. A big population? Check. Good people? Check. Amazing food? Check. People who would do harm to others because of some ill-conceived belief? Check. Drone warfare / assasinations are to target a small, discreet enemy. That is what we are fighting. It is much cheaper to run drones than send 3000 soldiers and equipment over there and hunt them down. You want to catch a fox, you have to think like a fox. Having me and my goons standing on a street corner or on never ending presence patrols isn't going to bring them out. You have to lull them to sleep (like they try to do to us) and hit them when they aren't watching.

I'm with Jumbo - use them in america, but don't arm the drones. Nowhere in america is it ok for a hellfire missile to explode than on a military impact area (training). If you positively identify someone in america, let the local boys get them.

I mentioned special forces as opposed to trying to occupy every country in the middle east. Just because it's easier to use drones doesn't mean that should be our main course of action to combat this threat. Reality is we need these countries to be able to capture and kill these terrorists themselves as well. Governments can't do that if they're unstable and terrorists are picking off youngin's who believe there's nothing better to do because of lack of economic oppurtunity. You almost have to look at this the same way with gangs in the states, just look at their recruiting practices. We don't help ourselves from a PR standpoint when we get our targets mixed in with civilian situations and kill all of them at the same time. Use drones when it makes sense, but we have to do more then just that. Sometimes we need to use a scaple, but we really need to focus on books and jobs...

[DaGoonie55]

I mentioned special forces as opposed to trying to occupy every country in the middle east. Just because it's easier to use drones doesn't mean that should be our main course of action to combat this threat. Reality is we need these countries to be able to capture and kill these terrorists themselves as well. Governments can't do that if they're unstable and terrorists are picking off youngin's who believe there's nothing better to do because of lack of economic oppurtunity. You almost have to look at this the same way with gangs in the states, just look at their recruiting practices. We don't help ourselves from a PR standpoint when we get our targets mixed in with civilian situations and kill all of them at the same time. Use drones when it makes sense, but we have to do more then just that. Sometimes we need to use a scaple, but we really need to focus on books and jobs...

We did use predators in Iraq. I know of 3 buildings in Yarmook Gardens that no longer stand thanks to some flyboy in Utah hooking us up! Regardless....

You present sound logic, but we don't have enough men trained to combat the spread of al Queda influence in our special forces. Your reference to gangs is spot on. People will believe whatever sounds the best for them regardless of what is truly happening. I would point out that their governments are almost as corrupt and the terrorists we are hunting. Education will help, but that is a game of patience that we cannot afford without safeguards in place. There will be peace in the middle east when these childrens' children grow up - provided they learn acceptance of others. Until then, keep cutting the heads of al Queda off until the hydra is dead. Our way of life and continual 'care free' existence depends on our ability to fight them on THEIR soil on our terms. I shudder to think what would happen if they metastasized here in the states.

[Madison Redskin]

Those aren't the only clueless people out there. Some people don't even realize that this program isn't being run by the military! Some people don't realize that the rules of engagement that govern the behavior of our big bad military don't apply to this program.

Some of us that have concerns about this actually don't live in the pastel colored world you speak of. And actually have done something to address these threats beyond just cheering for our president.

But you are right...many people are clueless

Are you about to start talking about Title 10 (again) and telling us that the bin laden raid was unlawful?

[Renegade7]

We did use predators in Iraq. I know of 3 buildings in Yarmook Gardens that no longer stand thanks to some flyboy in Utah hooking us up! Regardless....

You present sound logic, but we don't have enough men trained to combat the spread of al Queda influence in our special forces. Your reference to gangs is spot on. People will believe whatever sounds the best for them regardless of what is truly happening. I would point out that their governments are almost as corrupt and the terrorists we are hunting. Education will help, but that is a game of patience that we cannot afford without safeguards in place. There will be peace in the middle east when these childrens' children grow up - provided they learn acceptance of others. Until then, keep cutting the heads of al Queda off until the hydra is dead. Our way of life and continual 'care free' existence depends on our ability to fight them on THEIR soil on our terms. I shudder to think what would happen if they metastasized here in the states.

I'm not the one who said we didn't use them in Iraq. But these governments over there are changing, Arab Spring was just the start. We do need to keep the war over there, but again, we have to continue doing what we can to change the environment that breeds these terrorists. I keep saying we have to do both because we can't just kill them all until they're all dead. They're still recruiting...

[Redskins Diehard]

Are you about to start talking about Title 10 (again) and telling us that the bin laden raid was unlawful?

Never said any of that dude. Bin Laden raid was completely lawful. Funny how talking about the authorities granted to different agencies in our government is tiresome to some people. But then I suspect that reading about it on this forum is about as close as some people ever get to living in that world.

[Madison Redskin]

Never said any of that dude. Bin Laden raid was completely lawful. Funny how talking about the authorities granted to different agencies in our government is tiresome to some people. But then I suspect that reading about it on this forum is about as close as some people ever get to living in that world.

I appreciate all those who served in the military, including you. You should be proud of your service. However, with all due respect, in numerous posts you have essentially wrapped yourself in a flag and said, "None of you morons are qualified to speak about any matters related to defense. I am the foremost expert on such matters, so shut the **** up."

[zoony]

For all the pastel colored dreams of the warm-n-fuzzy crowd, these threats are real and we have to address them. Those that think that the whole world would just be a summercamp singalong if only the big bad US military would stop interfering are clueless. US military might, overwhelming power and the threat thereof has been the source of more peace on this planet than any other element in history. The success of our military is the very reason why we have seen radical opposition morph into its current form, unidentified, untraceable, swimming in the sea of whatever populace they have infected. Tanks, planes, missiles, etc., they know how that battle is going to come out, they had to find some other way and they have. So, we find some other way to oppose them. At the moment it is drones, it will be something else in a decade, but the underlying realities will still be the same.

Now, having had my little rah-rah rant, power corrupts, and the most important factors in this is are the basic protections of our system, an elected govt with public interest and systemic review processes overseeing the whole schmear , questions get asked, articles get published, the facts get out sooner or later and someone is held accountable. What passes for nations in a lot of places have little or none of this. We too often take for granted what we have and why we have it.

I think this is a very good post. You are correct, the summer camp singalong crowd really are a pile of dumb and I tire of reading their drivel. It's always the same personality type

That said, we do need to formalize this process. It sounds like we are, and it's good that people are demanding we do

[Redskins Diehard]

I appreciate all those who served in the military, including you. You should be proud of your service. However, with all due respect, in numerous posts you have essentially wrapped yourself in a flag and said, "None of you morons are qualified to speak about any matters related to defense. I am the foremost expert on such matters, so shut the **** up."

Couldn't be farther from the truth. In fact the whole Title 10 vs. Title 50 discussion which you seem to think is inconsequential to the whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with my prior service. The notion that any opposition to this program is based on some "summer camp singalong" mentality, especially when espoused by some billy badass that has never and will never be the one asked to pull the trigger is frankly insulting.

If you think that the distinction between executing the kill matrix program under authorities granted to the intelligence community vice authorities granted to the department of defense is inconsequential then I think you are missing a big point. I think covert action programs have a definite place in our national security apparatus. Just that it shouldn't be used as a justification for hundreds of lethal operations around the world. Especially when they become no longer covert. You cited the Bin Laden raid earlier...that is a perfect example of what a covert action should be in my estimation.

But again, the disagreement is not centered around whether or not you or anyone have or should serve. But you should at least understand that these are being run by the organizations that are running them for very specific reasons. If you don't care about that then by all means lets break out the waterboards and fire up the rendition planes.

---------- Post added October-26th-2012 at 11:23 PM ----------

I think this is a very good post. You are correct, the summer camp singalong crowd really are a pile of dumb and I tire of reading their drivel. It's always the same personality type

That said, we do need to formalize this process. It sounds like we are, and it's good that people are demanding we do

Not the only pile of dumb around here!

You guys should get out there and check out some of those singalongs...good times. But sometimes they can get a little rough.

[zoony]

But again, the disagreement is not centered around whether or not you or anyone have or should serve.

Why do you keep bringing it up then? these are just your last few posts in this thread. I think Madison's post sized you up pretty well

You guys should get out there and check out some of those singalongs...good times. But sometimes they can get a little rough.

Quite an assertion you make about the dream goal of warriors. I am not sure if my fellow paratroopers and I would fit into the category of "warriors"

Some of us... have done something to address these threats beyond just cheering for our president.

But then I suspect that reading about it on this forum is about as close as some people ever get to living in that world.

I appreciate all those who served in the military, including you. You should be proud of your service. However, with all due respect, in numerous posts you have essentially wrapped yourself in a flag and said, "None of you morons are qualified to speak about any matters related to defense. I am the foremost expert on such matters, so shut the **** up."