For Midget Fans: Why John Mara cheated

[Commander PK]

What if in your rush to "blow it up" you end up cutting one of your "informal" leaders.  A "locker room" guy, while not the best player at his position, busts his ass, and works hard every day. 

 

You don't think that the rest of the "team" will look at that in a negative light?

[Rufus T Firefly]

Have you ever been a leader or supervisor in your life?  Any new leader in any new position always has to give it some time before they start making wholesale changes.  You need to see how things work, and how people respond to you before you start blowing things up, which is a very quick way to lose everybody before you have even started.  Change at the beginning needs to be gradual and consistent.    

 

Leadership 101.  These same principles apply whether you are supervising a Wal Mart or an NFL team.   

Do you really need it explained to you the differences between running an NFL team and your local Kinkos? My word.

 

The team he took over needed to be totally rebuilt. If he couldn't figure that out without coaching them for a year, and thus blowing the golden opportunity that was the uncapped year, then he's a fool who has no business running an NFL team. Maybe not a fantasy team. Throwing around meaningless buzzwords or meaningless hypotheticals does nothing to change that truth.

we were punished for violating the spirit of the cap by accelerating the cap hit into an uncapped year. the cap implications were decided when the contracts were signed. in a haste to find something else to **** about with the current staff you have drawn a conclusion that we were punished because we chose the wrong way to do it. find one player with 40 million in bonus money who was cut. or even 20 million in bonus money.

He didn't have 40 mil in bonus money. The Jamarcus Russell contract was withing range of Haynseworth's.

 

No team was punished for cuts or trades. If you want to claim that we would have because one of the contracts we would have been traded was a little higher than others, then you are advancing a completely unsupported position without any plausible logic behind it. Why don't you try to prove it, rather than expect me to disprove such a silly negative.

 

 

 

Both of these arguments are too empty for me to humor them any more.

[VRIEL1]

Lets simplify this whole mess. It boils down to 2 things....

 

1- There was no agreement between the owner- thus the Skins and Cowboys did nothing wrong. No punishment needed.

 

2- There was an agreement- which was against the law (Collusion) to have in an uncapped year while negotiations were in progress.

 

I don't care what the NFL and Players Assoc. agreed to "AFTER" the CBA was agreed to, it's all about was there a law broken. and the answer is yes the NFL broke the law by colluding between themselves with out the Players Assoc. approval at the time. The punishments were proof that there were agreements. It should not matter that the NFL swindled the Players Assoc. into agreeing not to punish, the law was broken regardless and it was broken prior to any agreement with the PA.

 

The owners colluded. The only way to make this right would be for the NFL or courts to punish the other owners to the sum of $36 mill a piece and give the money to the PA. For two years. So the Skins have an advantage that the other owners did for two years.

[Commander PK]

Both of these arguments are too empty for me to humor them any more.

 

You know Rufus...I wager you are not as half as smart as you think you are.  You consistently call into question the intelligence of people who disagree with you with your sarcastic and condescending tone.  You are not the only one.

 

I don't need anything explained to me.  The leadership principles that I am talking about have nothing to do with logistics, but you are so smart I'm sure you already knew that.  

 

Peace 

[Redskins Diehard]

He didn't have 40 mil in bonus money. The Jamarcus Russell contract was withing range of Haynseworth's.

No team was punished for cuts or trades. If you want to claim that we would have because one of the contracts we would have been traded was a little higher than others, then you are advancing a completely unsupported position without any plausible logic behind it. Why don't you try to prove it, rather than expect me to disprove such a silly negative.

Both of these arguments are too empty for me to humor them any more.

you want someone to prove that violating the spirit of the code in one way would have been acceptable while violating it in another way would not. and you're right... it wasn't 40 million... it was 42 million. you were much closer to being right early in this thread. now you are trying to advance an agenda like the other drama queens around here these days

You know Rufus...I wager you are not as half as smart as you think you are. You consistently call into question the intelligence of people who disagree with you with your sarcastic and condescending tone. You are not the only one.

I don't need anything explained to me. The leadership principles that I am talking about have nothing to do with logistics, but you are so smart I'm sure you already knew that.

Peace

leadership is leadership. and anyone that has been a leader knows that. those that don't probably have never been a shift supervisor at their kinkos

[martytheman]

I thought that douchenugget lurie was a big force behind the penalty as well, mara's big mouth was just the one doing the squawking.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I think we can separate the fact that Shanny has done a poor job rebuilding the roster with the fact that the NFL totally hosed the Washington Redskins. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

You know Rufus...I wager you are not as half as smart as you think you are.  You consistently call into question the intelligence of people who disagree with you with your sarcastic and condescending tone.  You are not the only one.

 

I don't need anything explained to me.  The leadership principles that I am talking about have nothing to do with logistics, but you are so smart I'm sure you already knew that.  

 

Peace 

For the record,I generally won't put someone down like that unless they're doing one, or more likely both, of the following- 1) displaying ridiculous logical deficiencies, like completely ignoring any opposing argument that hurts their argument, or pretending facts just don't exist; 2) being, if not insulting, then at least disrespectful to me first.

 

Re-reading the last 2 pages, I realize neither of those really apply to you. I frankly hated some of your arguments but you didn't deserve that. I was lumping you in with others who were more deserving of that.

 

So, for what it's worth, I apologize to you.

 

Also for the record, the reason I jumped in with my analogy was because this thread got bumped at the same time this discusssion was happening elsewhere and I assumed that was why it was bumped. Looking a little further back, that clearly wasn't the case. So this discussion should have stayed out of this thread. This thread should have stayed reserved for ****ing about Mara, who is scum. I now have my own thread for talking about Shanahan's culpability.

[Commander PK]

I think we can separate the fact that Shanny has done a poor job rebuilding the roster with the fact that the NFL totally hosed the Washington Redskins. 

 

I would not begrudge anyone their opinion.  I think the correlation between the two (poor roster/salary cap penalty) deserves much more credit for our struggles than some are willing to admit at this time.  (Because they are angry the team is 3-8)

 

 

So, for what it's worth, I apologize to you.

 

 

Apology accepted.  You just said a lot about yourself by doing so.  I think it's important to remember that all of us as fans and supporters want what is best for this team.  Even though we may not agree on what that is.  Some of us are more informed than others.  You will usually never see me analyzing draft picks, and breaking things down the way you and some of the others here do...  I'm just not that kind of fan, nor would I have the time even if I wanted to.  However, with that said, if the NFL owners did not know what the ramifications would be to our roster by levying that penalty against us...I don't know why they would bother.  Arguing about could Shanahan have done a better job with the hand he was dealt is a legitimate argument.  For me,I'm not sure anybody could have, which is why I tend to be more forgiving of the current situation once I get past my dissapointment.  As others have said, I think there are far better arguments to be made for why Shanahan has done a poor job, than also assigning blame to him for this penalty.  Until they stopped talking about it, just about every media pundit also agreed that we were hosed.  Call it karma, call it payback for past "sins," call it Shanahan "****ing with the bull and getting the horns," but it was still wrong...plain and simple.  You can't give a life sentence to a person for stealing a hotdog, because you are angry they got off on a murder rap last year.

[TimmySmith]

I find it ridiculous that this is still an issue.  The NFL is ONE ENTITY, not 32.  Whether the rules are implicit or explicit, they have been decided upon.  Danny showed his shyster ways (still/again) and got burned for 2 years.  (Why does anyone defend the guy after 15 years?)

 

FWIW If the Skins had not mortgaged the future (again) on a QB that appears to be worth a fraction of what they paid, the cap penalty would probably be a blessing in disguise.  It still mght be.  They are in excellent position to make several appropriate FA signings.

[Commander PK]

I find it ridiculous that this is still an issue.  The NFL is ONE ENTITY, not 32.   

 

Prior rulings have established that the NFL is 32 seperate operating businesses. (Teams)  In an uncapped year, which was made so by their own design, the NFL by law cannot restrict the spending of it's individual teams. 

 

Which is why they approved the contracts they later penalized us for.  They had no grounds not to approve them.

[Commander PK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

 

Under "scope of antitrust law"

 

 However, the 2010 Supreme Court ruling in American Needle Inc. v. NFL characterised the NFL as a "cartel" of 32 independent businesses subject to antitrust law, not a single entity.

 

 

In establishing of the penalty the owners overcame this "dilemna" by having the players union sign off on the penalties in the new CBA.  Making the penalties part of the collective bargaining agreement, and essentially...untouchable, because no arbritator is going to overrule a collective bargaining agreement.  For me, had I been in charge of the players union, I would have started asking questions when I read that part of the agreement. 

 

How can you penalize teams for "violating the spirit of the salary cap" in a year when the cap did not exist? 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Mara blows, we got our revenge year one in the cap hit (last year).  Whoever won (Dallas or Redskins) was going to win the division and go to the playoffs, with the Giants on the outside looking in knowing they were eliminated even with a winning record (9-7).  

 

This year, it appears that Dallas might be the team winning the division, because I just don't see the Eagles getting it done.  

 

But, now the cap penalty is over, done.  And we don't have a 1st round pick in the upcoming draft.  The lack in cap space did prevent us from picking up some key FAs, but this team has so many holes that need to be addressed via draft (and have been needed since 2000) its ridiculous.  

 

I think everyone will be in agreement that we needed the following prior to the cap penalty:  LG, C, RG, RT, NT, SS ,CB, MLB, WR, PK 

And I think its safe to assume that we needed first round or second round talent for the o-line and NT position.....with having that at all positions would be nice, excluding PK, highly unlikely.

 

So, the question is, who could have we gotten with the 16 million in FA for 2012 and in 2013?  We wanted VJax at WR, well most of us did, but the money he got from TB, his 2012 cap hit was $15.5 million (roughly) and in 2013 it was initially $3.3 million.  So, yeah we could have had a stud WR, but it would have cost us the entire bank (for the most part).

 

Carl Nicks, whom TB also snagged.  2012 cap hit was $14.8 million, and $3 million in 2013.  

 

And the list goes on, Im not going to go through every position, but you see what I'm getting at.  Getting a younger guy/stud at the positions of need, it would cost us greatly.  So, you have to think we lost out in a stud WR and one stud o-lineman.  But we did snag Garcon, who is a baller.  Granted it would have been nice to snag VJax and Garcon, with Moss in the slot.  

 

Karma is a **** and it came back to bite the Giants the past two seasons.  Now we get our cap space this year and hopefully can snag two key FAs at the needed positions and maybe by a miracle get a stud Center or guard in round 2 of the draft (if one falls).  I haven't looked into the 2014 draft, anyone know if its a predicted good deep draft for o-line?

[Rufus T Firefly]

Apology accepted. 

Appreciated. Trying to stay out of this debate in this thread.

[Commander PK]

Appreciated. Trying to stay out of this debate in this thread.

 

Agreed

[Commander PK]

I thought that douchenugget lurie was a big force behind the penalty as well, mara's big mouth was just the one doing the squawking.

 

Yeah, he has been kind of let off the hook a bit...but according to some reports at the time, he was just as much responsible.  The difference between him and Mara, is that he was smart enough not to go on T.V. and admit collusion for the world to see like an arrogant ass. 

 

Graziano said it best "He made himself the aggressive face of the penalties"  Well, in doing so, he gets the heat.  I doubt he cares much, but I bet he cares that the two teams that were penalized are likely going to have 1 NFC East championship each after this season.   

 

I'm actually rooting for the Cowboys to win the East now.  Yup, I said it.  Next year all bets are off though. 

[Commander PK]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/59183/collinsworth-blames-cap-for-redskins-woes

 

 

 

Collinsworth: "If you were going to ask me what I think is best for the organization, I think what's best is to convince Robert that Mike Shanahan can take him to the next level. ...This offense has been number one, number one, number one, number one through eternity so we know it works and then you put someone with [Griffin's] physical skills into it. When I saw they made this trade I said, 'Oh my god this is going to fantastic. This is going to be the greatest offense we've ever seen.' Unfortunately, the unforeseen came into play and that was the salary cap hit. Anyone who could have foreseen $36 million taken off that team after that trade and after giving up the draft picks, so now not only are you not going to have the draft picks, you're not going to have the money to spend on free agency. Thirty six million, you're talking about at least the best six players on your team being taken off it. If you go to any team out here and take $36 million off it this late in the year when attrition starts to really kick in, I want you to find any team that will be above 3-8." 

 

 

 

Collinsworth continued on about the salary cap, pointing out the parity in the NFL. There's a reason the playoff teams turn over quite a bit from one year to the next. "If every team got an extra $36 million to spend, how do you think the team, the 32nd team, that didn't get it, would do? Would they win very many games?" 

To which Czaban pointed out, as I would have, that the Redskins haven't always spent wisely. 

Collinsworth: "You've got to hit the right players. But I thought the tough part about it was that when the announcement was made -- on the eve of free agency. You say would they have made the trade for RG3 and given up all the draft picks if they had known they'd take a $36-million hit? My guess is no. [Then you would say], ‘OK, we're going to take a $36-million hit? Fine, I'll tell you what we're gonna do. We're gonna go completely young, get rid of all our older players. And we're gonna take this core of newly drafted young key players and play with them for two years while the salary cap hit is underway and then in year three we're gonna explode on the scene.' But when they didn't know when they made the RG3 trade and they gave up all the draft picks, now you can't get the free agents to make the rest of the team. You're dead. The fact that they made the playoffs last year is much more a miracle than the fact they've won three games this year." 

 

say what you want about Collinsworth, but he is right in this case.  

[Commander PK]

Let's say for the sake of argument the government decides to take 36% of your salary away and donate it to.... the United Way. ( a multi-billion dollar corporation by the way).

 

If you make 5000 net salary a month, that is 1800 dollars.  

 

Now pay all your bills on time.

[s0crates]

Stupid Mara.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Let's say for the sake of argument the government decides to take 36% of your salary away and donate it to.... the United Way. ( a multi-billion dollar corporation by the way).

 

If you make 5000 net salary a month, that is 1800 dollars.  

 

Now pay all your bills on time.

He is gone lol.

 

Regardless of it being fair or not, sometimes life screws you. Shanahan has made this team worse after four seasons.

 

He gone.

[Burgold]

F Mara.  I think Shanny would fail regardless, but the cap penalty was BS.

[Commander PK]

He is gone lol.

 

Regardless of it being fair or not, sometimes life screws you. Shanahan has made this team worse after four seasons.

 

He gone.

 

I still don't think that's the right call, but what will be will be.  

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Makes you wonder what else Mara has influence over??????

[Commander PK]

if they are capable of doing this...what are they not capable of?  Rigging games?  I hope they are proud of the 3-12 mess they helped create.  I'm sure heads will roll in Washington for this debacle...Mara rubs his hands and cackles gleefully.  

 

YOU DARE TO CROSS OLD MONEY...you pay peasant!  Old money wants a cap...old money gets a cap.  

 

or we shows up and breaks ya leg

Season ticket holders UNITE and sue them.  You have my moral support. 

[aussieskin]

The biggest mistake made was by the NFL, who shouldn't have allowed the owner of an opposition team make a judgement call that could be called into doubt, this decision should have been made by a president/owner of an AFC team who didnt play the Redskins that year.   Mr Snyder should have objected to Mara being allowed to make a decision against a team his team plays twice a year.