2012 Rookie QB Discussion

[Oldfan]

I think this is one of those things, like many in life, where too little is bad and too much is bad as well.

I did not have a strong arm so for me proper footwork and a good base was essential to get velocity into the throw - perhaps as a result this is something I always look for when I am watching QBs at all levels. If your base is too small your not getting weight transfer or enough body into the throw as well as leg drive and hip and shoulder rotation which give you both zip on the pass and accuracy. You end up throwing with your arm only.

However if you are over striding and have too big a base that's also a problem - it slows down your release, lowers your release point (leading to tips as you say) and also means you are not transferring your weight properly and much like a QB who has too small a base you end up throwing more with your arm alone with not enough drive from your legs, hips and the weight transfer. If you over stride it also effects your balance and makes it harder to move and reset if you need to.

Thanks for the response, Martin.

Everything you said makes sense in conventional mechanics, but I wonder if we are using the same definition for "wide base." I'm wondering if this is a new trend in coaching QBs and if it has merit.

Happily, I found a video of the wide base mechanics I'm talking about. I hadn't realized that the QB elevates at the finish -- which would raise his release point back to "normal."

[MartinC]

Thanks for the response, Martin.

Everything you said makes sense in conventional mechanics, but I wonder if we are using the same definition for "wide base." I'm wondering if this is a new trend in coaching QBs and if it has merit.

Happily, I found a video of the wide base mechanics I'm talking about. I hadn't realized that the QB elevates at the finish -- which would raise his release point back to "normal."

The definition question is a good one. I think of 'base' at two points personally - position at the top of the drop and then the base after the QB steps into the throw which is the position from which the throw is actually made.

That video is interesting in that it seems to emphasizes a long step on drop back, much longer than I was taught. Speed of drop back was always coached but I was always taught to take shorter steps on drop back to keep balance better. But at the top of the drop when Brees steps into the throw his base at the final throwing position is about what I would call perfect - not wider than I would like to see from my vintage.

Coaching fashions do change over time so you may be onto something here in respect of coaches wanting to see their QBs use longer steps and have a wider base on set up but I still don't think you would want too wide a base in the final throwing position.

[Oldfan]

The definition question is a good one. I think of 'base' at two points personally - position at the top of the drop and then the base after the QB steps into the throw which is the position from which the throw is actually made.

That video is interesting in that it seems to emphasizes a long step on drop back, much longer than I was taught. Speed of drop back was always coached but I was always taught to take shorter steps on drop back to keep balance better. But at the top of the drop when Brees steps into the throw his base at the final throwing position is about what I would call perfect - not wider than I would like to see from my vintage.

Coaching fashions do change over time so you may be onto something here in respect of coaches wanting to see their QBs use longer steps and have a wider base on set up but I still don't think you would want too wide a base in the final throwing position.

When I say "wide base," I'm thinking only of the setup. I hadn't thought of the final throwing position as having a base, but of course it does.

Over the years, I have noticed that advances in mechanics are made more often by players than coaches. I'm wondering if Drew Brees has advanced the art.

[darrelgreenie]

Always a pleasure, Oldfan.

My thought is if a QB can hit what they aim at I don't think there should be too much tinkering with their base or general mechanics.

I would look for a QB to begin and finish their delivery on balance.

I don't think having a wide base at the begining of the throw would necessarily lower the throwing height provided their is good weight transfer to the finish/release point.

A possible benefit to having a wider base comes from the ability to generate more force from the back leg to the front leg during weight transfer.

:2cents:

---------- Post added September-12th-2012 at 12:22 PM ----------

Admittedly I enter the game already a fan of Arians offense, although he's another one of the those playcallers that can get carried away with the pass.

But, net-net I thought there OL was better in pass protection then in run blocking so maybe that gave him the excuse he needed to chuck it around as much as he did? *shrugs* (What was Andy Reid/Rob Chudzinski excuse?)

But, if he is gonna mix a lot of the Stanford/Harbaugh WCO he's gonna need to bring the TEs into the gameplan and master the power play in the running game.

Other then that I thought for the most part the protection was good and the scheme created some open receivers.

The 1st couple of thirds downs I thought he didn't respond well to delivering in a muddled pocket, which didn't happen often at Stanford.

He had Wayne open (wide open) twice and missed both throws (wild high on one) the other he threw off his back foot in the face of pressure.

Lock on to Wayne on a drag that Urlacher tipped and proly could've picked.

3rd series 3rd down ended on a good throw off playaction to Donald Brown in the flat which he drops

4th series throws a perfect 5-step drop bang-8 footwork/rhythm/ball placement

Follows that great throw with and underthrown go route off boot-action that gets picked

5th

Nice 3 step fade route then 3 step slant

Then late and not enough velocity on a speed out to the left that should have been picked

Wayne great one-handed catch on a drag

2-minute

Nice throws to Fleener/Wayne

Evade scramble+throw

Wild high on pass that Wayne makes a great catch on,

Underthrown fade route broken up

1st drive second half

PA just misses wide to Fleener TE out

Threw behind open WR in-cut/skinny post on 3rd down

He was a couple throws aways from having a huge game against a very good defense (or what I think is gonna be a good defense, right now who knows?)

He's going through his progressions, generally making good decisions and is accurate and on time with most of his throws.

He's gonna light up some defenses this year.

I think the Vikings could get torched this weekend.

[Oldfan]

Always a pleasure, Oldfan.

I feel the same.

My thought is if a QB can hit what they aim at I don't think there should be too much tinkering with their base or general mechanics.

Joe Gibbs, and other coaches of his era felt the same way. They really didn't care about how the QB got it there. That's why Joe gave up multiple picks for Campbell who seemed to do well getting it threre in college but whose mechanics had to be overhauled by Al Saunders and Jim Zorn before he could perform well enough to play in the NFL.

I would look for a QB to begin and finish their delivery on balance.

I suspect that the wider setup makes it easier to start on balance. Try it. Brees and Luck use it.

I don't think having a wide base at the begining of the throw would necessarily lower the throwing height provided their is good weight transfer to the finish/release point.

The video I linked shows the QB elevating at the finish so the release point comes back up high. No problem there. My concern is alleviated.

[Destino]

Lol.

I watched all the preseason games, and immediately I knew why they didn't let Colt even sniff a competition; Colt would win. In a straight up competition, Colt would win, and then they'd be boned.

I said this in the other thread, but all Weeden did in preseason was show he could throw the ball two ways---fast and hard. He locked onto his first receiver and whether it made sense or not he threw the ball to them.

No doubt about it. Colt would dominate Weeden in a head to head. I thought Colt was a better prospect coming out of college. Weeden had bust written all over him.

[Skinsinparadise]

Hey DG:

Curious considering you aren't always a fan of Kyle what did you think of the game plan -- RG III's performance?

[CaptChaos86]

Just skimming through here I thought you guys were discussing Colt Breenan. :whew:

[darrelgreenie]

Hey DG:

Curious considering you aren't always a fan of Kyle what did you think of the game plan -- RG III's performance?

My answer is the same for both the gameplan and Griff: virtuoso.

[KDawg]

Ok, so, I can't find the answer so I'll ask. What the hell is DirecTV shortcuts and how do I access it? I MUST KNOW!

I have the Ticket and want to watch the other games.

[Riggo#44]

I wonder if Bradshaw still thinks Russell Wilson is higher rated than RGIII...

[redskindan07]

Week 1 goes to Mr. Griffin. Currently in the lead for ROY

[sportjunkie07]

I think the Vikings could get torched this weekend.

agreed.

i still feel that of the 5 rookie qb's, we will be putting them in this order at the end of the season.

rg3

luck

wilson

tannehill

weeden

i believe firmly that coaching has a lot to do with the success of a rookie. schemes should be tailored to a rookie's strengths, and the rest of the team should be able to reduce the pressure on the qb and help compensate for rookie mistakes.

as it so happens, i feel that the above ranking also represents the stability of the teams to which those rookies came into. i didnt think tannehill or weeden should be starting much if at all this year, because they are both raw. ideally, i'd prefer to have wilson sit as well, but perhaps can get by in year one, mainly because of his athletic ability and a better supporting cast in seattle (imo).

i love how the shanahan's have approached this season. they did everything they could to improve the rest of the team and support rg3. the gameplan for week 1 wrt griffin was outstanding, and i wonder what we will see for week 2.

[darrelgreenie]

...I have the Ticket and want to watch the other games.

You're too late.

Channels 704/705 replay all the games in condensed 30 minute format monday-wednesday

[Stophovr6]

I don't see Wilson or Weeden finishing the season. I think they will both be replaced by week 5.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

I don't see Wilson or Weeden finishing the season. I think they will both be replaced by week 5.

I could definitely see a scenario such as this.

It's funny because Seattle ponied up for Flynn and he was not given as much as a fair shot as McCoy. The hype machine was already being driven by Wilson (whom I liked coming out of Nebraska and wanted the Shanahan's to draft and develop had we not been to draft RG3). Perhaps Seattle found Flynn to not be innocuous.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

I wonder how long it will take for Weeden to get benched? From what I understand, he was outplayed by McCoy but the FO didn't wanna make that move just for PR's sake. Seems eerily familiar to us with that gnome Vinny Cerrato in charge - "Forget playing the best player, play the guy we paid big bucks to and who can sell jerseys!". Ugh, it's not even possible to take pleasure in someone else going through that. It just sucks for everyone.

[DogofWar1]

If Wilson struggles he'll be replaced, and it won't be a big deal. Wilson was a 3rd rounder anyway, and they paid for Flynn, so they might as well use him.

Weedon will be the much harder one to replace. They paid for him with a 1st rounder, and replacing him, especially after they made such a show saying he "won" the job would be a huge indictment

Luck and Griffin are obviously safe. Tannehill might be replaced too, they have Matt Moore, and if Tannehill doesn't step it up they might throw him back in there. And why not, if Tannehill is throwing 3 picks a game, and Moore will only throw 2, then Moore will be the right choice.

But yeah, CLE is screwed if things don't improve.

[KCClybun]

If Wilson struggles he'll be replaced, and it won't be a big deal. Wilson was a 3rd rounder anyway, and they paid for Flynn, so they might as well use him.

Weedon will be the much harder one to replace. They paid for him with a 1st rounder, and replacing him, especially after they made such a show saying he "won" the job would be a huge indictment

Luck and Griffin are obviously safe. Tannehill might be replaced too, they have Matt Moore, and if Tannehill doesn't step it up they might throw him back in there. And why not, if Tannehill is throwing 3 picks a game, and Moore will only throw 2, then Moore will be the right choice.

But yeah, CLE is screwed if things don't improve.

You have to add that they rushed Richardson back.

Watching him play Sunday, he just had no burst through the hole. Not like the holes were huge, but he got 19 touches and only 39 yards. He couldn't plant and get vertical.

So you've got a 29 year old rookie quarterback, and a rookie running back you rushed back from injury.

The Browns are boned. Big time.

Wilson...I don't know. I think he'll have to faulter a lot to get benched. If he's playing okay and they can win some games, there won't be too much pressure to insert Flynn.

As for Miami, why the **** haven't they signed Jabar Gaffney or Donte Stallworth yet? Or anyone. Hell, call T.O. Call SOMEBODY. Get him a wide receiver. They've got no one. Teams just put 8 or 9 in the box and refuse to let the run game get going and they've got no one outside that can at least catch the football. They don't need a huge downfield thread. Just someone that they can count on to catch the ball at the very least.

[DogofWar1]

You have to add that they rushed Richardson back.

I agree with everything you said, but I refrained from mentioning it here. I just started a more general rookie thread, and I expect Richardson will be discussed at length there, especially if he performs poorly.

But yeah, Browns need a 100% turnaround or they are thoroughly screwed.

As for Miami, two words.

Jeff. Ireland.

[darrelgreenie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWkqVecz0Ok&feature=player_embedded

---------- Post added September-14th-2012 at 04:26 AM ----------

found this^^^^

not as bad as it looks on paper against a very good defense
schemed up some open receivers despite their averageness
plenty of drops some caused by off target throws
Nanee gave the worst effort ever on an in breaking route and basically lets Joseph beat him to the spot to intercept the ball, I believe that was Nanee last target of the game
AA (3 targets) dropped a skinny post which was Tannehill's best pass of the day
Tannehill nor the playcalling took advantage of his athleticism
JJ Watt took Martin and the Dolphins OL to school on batted passes

[amm0409]

didn't know where to post this other RG3 video but its funny:)

[DogofWar1]

Well through 2 weeks, the rookie stat lines look like this:

RGIII: 526 passing yards, 71% comp., 3 pass TDs, 1 INT, 20 rushes, 124 yards, 2 TDs

Luck: 533 passing yards, 56% comp., 3 pass TDs, 3 INTs, 6 rushes, 30 yards

Weedon: 440 passing yards, 52% comp., 2 TDs, 4 INTs, 4 rushes, 31 yards

Tannehill: 419 passing yards, 57% comp., 1 TD, 3 INTs, 5 rushes, 13 yards, 1 TD

Wilson: 304 passing yards, 61% comp., 2 TDs, 1 INT, 12 rushes, 48 yards

Everyone except RGIII had a vastly improved day, and RGIII still did pretty well. In fact, the only rookie to throw a pick this week was RGIII. Huge, 180 degree turnaround from last week, when it looked like Weedon and Tannehill were not NFL quality, and Luck and Wilson weren't much better off. Wilson has been asked to do surprisingly little, he only has 54 passing attempts, which explains his low yardage. Next lowest (excluding RGIII), was Tannehill with 66 attempts.

I excluded RGIII there because he's only thrown it 55 times. His great accuracy and big play ability help to run up his numbers.

Preliminary Rookie of the year consideration still probably belongs to RGIII, on account of 70+% comp, TD/INT, and dual threat nature. He's got 5 offensive TDs, and only one turnover. That's efficiency.

[darrelgreenie]

Over their opening 2 games are we running more of Baylor's offense for Griffin then Carolina ran Auburn's offense for Cam?

[darrelgreenie]

Griffin joined 2011 rookie of the year Cam Newton and fellow 2012 rookie Ryan Tannehill of the Miami Dolphins as the only rookie quarterbacks in league history to surpass the 1,000-yard passing mark in their first four games.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/wp/2012/10/02/robert-griffin-iii-off-to-historic-passing-start/

Rookie QB Week 4 ranks: Tannehill or RG3?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000068681/article/rookie-qb-week-4-ranks-tannehill-or-rg3