2012 Rookie QB Discussion

[darrelgreenie]

Did anyone catch the games of the other rookie QBs?

[MartinC]

Did anyone catch the games of the other rookie QBs?

I watched the Colts versus the Bears and caught a little of the Eagles versus the Browns.

Luck was up and down - he made some really nice throws, moved well when asked to and showed great footwork moving inside the pocket. He missed some throws and reads though - he badly under threw a receiver on a go route for one of his picks, forced a throw on another and I think just misread the coverage on the third. He also had a fumble. You could really see the talent and potential but there was also the occasional rookie moment as well.

What I would say is its amazing he produced as well as he did behind that line. The pass protection was horrible and the play calling did not do him any favours either - Luck was under pressure all day and took a beating. Unless the Colts get much better in pass protection and their OC moves Luck around outside the pocket and gets him some looks that allow him to get the ball out of his hand quickly they will get him killed.

Weedon just looked lost against the Eagles. The game just seemed too fast for him and he was inaccurate when he did get time to throw. I just don't think he knew what he was looking at in terms of pressure and coverage's and that mental uncertainty translated into physical mistakes like missing easy throws. I think he is a better QB than he showed Sunday - but until the game slows down he will not show it and the game never slows down for some QBs.

[pjfootballer]

I hate changing the channel when our game is on. I usually miss part of our game. I saw very little of Luck, Weeden and Tannehill. I was going to watch some of Wilson, but I watched the GB/SF game and the Car/TB games.

[MartinC]

I hate changing the channel when our game is on. I usually miss part of our game. I saw very little of Luck, Weeden and Tannehill. I was going to watch some of Wilson, but I watched the GB/SF game and the Car/TB games.

I have Gamepass so I have access to all the games on rewind - including coaches film. I think it's great - my wife's not so sure .....

[HailToTheRedskins14]

I was sitting beside a Bears fan watching their game and he said Luck was taking a beating all day. Said he looked "like nothing special, but okay." Basically that he had an average performance.

And I heard Luck talking about the interception, he said that he thought the defense jumped offsides so he had a free shot, and he just chunked it up there. Unfortunately, there was no flag. Some comments on the article said the refs missed the call, but they were Colts fans so who knows. Either way, seems like just a little mistake on his part.

Weeden, I think 5.9 QB Rating is all you need to know.

[KCClybun]

I'm watching Colts versus Bears. Luck just never looked comfortable.

He had Donnie Avery wide open on that deep throw and just underthrew it. Had time, set his feet, but just didn't let it rip. If he just uncorks it the Colts probably have a touchdown; I don't think there was a safety over the top. I think he has plenty of arm to make the throw, but he just didn't let it go.

[MartinC]

I'm watching Colts versus Bears. Luck just never looked comfortable.

He had Donnie Avery wide open on that deep throw and just underthrew it. Had time, set his feet, but just didn't let it rip. If he just uncorks it the Colts probably have a touchdown; I don't think there was a safety over the top. I think he has plenty of arm to make the throw, but he just didn't let it go.

Yep that was a bad under throw. It was one of the few times they got Luck out of the pocket on the night and should have been a big play.

What do you think of the play calling by the Colts? With as bad that line is I don't think they did enough to help Luck slow down the rush with some screen or moving him outside the pocket. Some quick throws out of the gun as well would have been better than having him taking 5 step drops and having the Bears entire D'Line meet at the QB .....

[KCClybun]

Yep that was a bad under throw. It was one of the few times they got Luck out of the pocket on the night and should have been a big play.

What do you think of the play calling by the Colts? With as bad that line is I don't think they did enough to help Luck slow down the rush with some screen or moving him outside the pocket. Some quick throws out of the gun as well would have been better than having him taking 5 step drops and having the Bears entire D'Line meet at the QB .....

Yeah, it was weird. It's cliche, but you really do want to work your quarterback into some kind of offensive rhythm. I don't know about running screens against the Bears; we tried that in preseason and they always snuffed them out. But just some simple West Coast Offense routes; slants, maybe they do try some bubble screens, some quick in routes, just to get him into a rhythm. They came out trying to sling it versus the frakking Bears, which is a bad move. They wanted to work the intermediate level and work it deep, which is sort of the strength of the Bears D.

Another thing that bugs me watching Luck is that he never, like, drives the ball, you know? It feels like he pushes it. For a guy who has the kind of form he does, he never really rips the ball with some heat on it. It always sort of bugged me.

I'm watching Cutler in this game and when he plants his feet and fires it you can see the smoke coming off it. Luck has better footwork already but the ball never comes out hot, it kinda floats.

I'm not trying to badmouth Luck or anything. Just something I'm noticing as I watch the game.

---------- Post added September-11th-2012 at 03:13 PM ----------

They actually do back to the shorter routes with about five minutes left in the first half. Luck had Wayne on an out route, ball took a little long getting, almost picked by Conte. Wayne bailed Luck out on a lot of throws...

[darrelgreenie]

I watched the Colts versus the Bears and caught a little of the Eagles versus the Browns.

Luck was up and down - he made some really nice throws, moved well when asked to and showed great footwork moving inside the pocket. He missed some throws and reads though - he badly under threw a receiver on a go route for one of his picks, forced a throw on another and I think just misread the coverage on the third. He also had a fumble. You could really see the talent and potential but there was also the occasional rookie moment as well.

What I would say is its amazing he produced as well as he did behind that line. The pass protection was horrible and the play calling did not do him any favours either - Luck was under pressure all day and took a beating. Unless the Colts get much better in pass protection and their OC moves Luck around outside the pocket and gets him some looks that allow him to get the ball out of his hand quickly they will get him killed.

I started watching the directTV shortcuts of the Bears game but fell asleep early.

So far there's been some drops and some missed passes.

I'm gonna watch the Bears tonight and try and watch 2 others game...Browns and Dolphins?

---------- Post added September-11th-2012 at 03:24 PM ----------

....Another thing that bugs me watching Luck is that he never, like, drives the ball, you know? It feels like he pushes it. For a guy who has the kind of form he does, he never really rips the ball with some heat on it. It always sort of bugged me.

Yep, Luck looks like a finesse thrower even though it appears he has the arm strength.

[KCClybun]

God I don't want to watch the Browns-Philly game. I'm morbidly curious about how miserable Weeden was but not enough to watch any more film on the browns than I already have.

[darrelgreenie]

God I don't want to watch the Browns-Philly game. I'm morbidly curious about how miserable Weeden was but not enough to watch any more film on the browns than I already have.

I hear yah but I gotta see it with my own eyes.

It will be an eye bleeding 15 minutes.

[KCClybun]

I hear yah but I gotta see it with my own eyes.

It will be an eye bleeding 15 minutes.

Lol.

I watched all the preseason games, and immediately I knew why they didn't let Colt even sniff a competition; Colt would win. In a straight up competition, Colt would win, and then they'd be boned.

I said this in the other thread, but all Weeden did in preseason was show he could throw the ball two ways---fast and hard. He locked onto his first receiver and whether it made sense or not he threw the ball to them.

[MartinC]

Lol.

I watched all the preseason games, and immediately I knew why they didn't let Colt even sniff a competition; Colt would win. In a straight up competition, Colt would win, and then they'd be boned.

I said this in the other thread, but all Weeden did in preseason was show he could throw the ball two ways---fast and hard. He locked onto his first receiver and whether it made sense or not he threw the ball to them.

I think what Weedon is doing is picking a reciever based on his pre snap read and that's where he is then going come what may. In the game against the Eagles I don't think I saw him go through a progression at all. He is not getting a lot of help from the supporting cast to be fair though.

[Warhead36]

Weeden proved why you don't draft rookies that old. There is going to be some adjustment period no matter how "mature" you are. By the time Weeden fully gets it, if he ever does, he'll be around 31-32 and have maybe three really good years at most. The return on investment would be awful.

I'm not surprised Tannehill played poorly. He really should not be starting from day one. I don't like drafting QBs who have such limited experience. The NFL is not where you go to learn how to play the position.

Luck will be fine. The Bears make most QBs look bad.

[CaptChaos86]

From everything I've seen and read Tannehill and Weeden got the worst of it. Poor Weeden just looked terrible. I never saw him as a pro quarterback, just doesnt seem to have it to me. But what do I know. But with what RGIII did, he made all of them look pretty mediocre.

[SkinsFTW]

Well remember that the Colts OC just coached Roethlisberger for years so maybe that type of offense isn't going to change at all. Berger was killed every year and had to make plays on his own.

[KCClybun]

Tannehill got a bunch of balls tipped at the line. It was a problem in college and the Texans tipped a bunch of balls. It's the damndest thing. He's 6'4", but his delivery is so low that it's easy for defenders to get their hands on it.

I don't think it's going to get better either.

[Ghost of]

Lol.

I watched all the preseason games, and immediately I knew why they didn't let Colt even sniff a competition; Colt would win. In a straight up competition, Colt would win, and then they'd be boned.

I said this in the other thread, but all Weeden did in preseason was show he could throw the ball two ways---fast and hard. He locked onto his first receiver and whether it made sense or not he threw the ball to them.

That is something I don't get. I thought we were told in the NFL it's about how you play the game, not where you were drafted or how much you get paid. At least pay makes sense, it's a big cost to just sit someone who might be decent, even if not great. But a draft pick for someone who often would not be starting material anyway at that position? Why not let COlt at least show out a bit so you could TRADE him and get value? Lol

What must the other guys on the Browns team be thinking that they could go out there and win games (and you never know, maybe they're JUST good enough to do some damage) and be competitive and they would rather force you to grow with a guy who isn't just not in his prime yet but is actually terrible.

[KCClybun]

That is something I don't get. I thought we were told in the NFL it's about how you play the game, not where you were drafted or how much you get paid. At least pay makes sense, it's a big cost to just sit someone who might be decent, even if not great. But a draft pick for someone who often would not be starting material anyway at that position? Why not let COlt at least show out a bit so you could TRADE him and get value? Lol

What must the other guys on the Browns team be thinking that they could go out there and win games (and you never know, maybe they're JUST good enough to do some damage) and be competitive and they would rather force you to grow with a guy who isn't just not in his prime yet but is actually terrible.

The Browns are a walking calamity.

They pinned the failure of 2011 squarely on Colt McCoy, and their fans ate that **** right up and blamed Colt. Then they lowballed the Rams to get RG3, then they turned around said they didn't want him. They panicked and moved up to the three for a guy they could've gotten at 5 and then missed out on Kendall Wright which made the panic and they drafted Weeden too early.

They put Colt on the trade block for a 3rd round pick which they knew no one would pay, then forced him to take third team snaps. Oh, and they blow a pick they could've used for RG3 on Josh Gordon. Colt clearly outplayed Weeden in preseason (albeit against back-ups, but he looked the way a starter should against back ups), to the point where I thought it was fairly obvious they were limiting Colt's snaps; Colt and Seneca Wallace split time, Thaddeus Lewis got zero looks, and yet they cut Seneca and kept Lewis.

It's bizarro world there. I don't think Weeden will always be this bad, but holy crap, man. It doesn't look like he has any idea of how his fairly basic version of the West Coast Offense is supposed to work. Takes a pre-snap read, drops back and doesn't even pretend to go to a second or third option. He locks on with laser focus.

Every other rookie I saw went through their reads. And it's funny, because basically every rookie starter is running some version of the West Coast Offense (even Luck, with Arians combining it with his offense), and the one guy who is running the most basic version of it that I can see, and he looked the worst. And I haven't even watched the whole damn tape yet!

[Oldfan]

I hope you don't mind a quick off-topic question on your thread, DG. I have a question for those of you keen on QB mechanics.

The Shanahans reportedly tried to get McNabb to throw from a wider base. Drew Brees throws from a wide base as does Andrew Luck. They seem to do pretty well with it.

But, I'm wondering if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages: 1) the lower release point vulnerable to tipped balls; and 2) the ball will sail high when the weight shift gets a little ahead of the arm.

Back in the day, conventional wisdom was that "over striding" was a fault, but QBs threw from a narrow base then.

Any opinions on this?

[KCClybun]

I thought McNabb's issue was that his base was so narrow that he either had to 1.) just throw the football with nothing but arm and 2.) take a giant step into his throws. Both lead to accuracy issues and the timing of throws on the short and intermediate stuff was off. I think it was less about making his base wider and more about just getting it to a normal level.

[DogofWar1]

All I'll say is that it's a little nice to have all the naysayers on moving up for Griffin silenced, even if it's just for a week.

A few guys in the media were saying it in pre-season, that RGIII did not look like rookies normally do in their development curve, and I think this week showed that. He might backslide this week against the Rams though, so we need to wait and see.

Luck is going to struggle a bit, after all, he's got very little around him with which to work, but the Colts will be building around him and he's got the skillset to keep growing.

Wilson looked 3rd best of the bunch. Definitely a rookie, but there's hope there. Above 50% completion, got a TD, and only threw one INT (though he lost a fumble). He's got potential.

Tannehill is just in a terrible situation, and I feel for him. No WRs, first game is against Houston, and your GM is Jeff Ireland? Tough hand to be dealt. Still despite 3 INTs he completed 55% of his passes. Hopefully it gets better for him.

And Weedon...I don't even. I just hope he has a better week. Eagles were a tough first game.

Honestly, if I'm Cleveland I'm more worried about Richardson at this point. Guy got 19 touches and didn't even manage 40 yards. Sure, again, Eagles, but this guy is supposed to be the next AP. If he flops, then your whole organization looks bad. And if both Richardson AND Weedon flop, well, Holmgren will be taking the early flight out of CLE from the airport.

[KCClybun]

Honestly, if I'm Cleveland I'm more worried about Richardson at this point. Guy got 19 touches and didn't even manage 40 yards. Sure, again, Eagles, but this guy is supposed to be the next AP. If he flops, then your whole organization looks bad. And if both Richardson AND Weedon flop, well, Holmgren will be taking the early flight out of CLE from the airport.

If the Browns keep on looking this bad he might get fired regardless.

[DogofWar1]

If the Browns keep on looking this bad he might get fired regardless.

True, but I figure that even if they end up with only 4 to 6 wins, if their picks look decent, Holmgren will be allowed to finish his 5 year term, or at least given another year.

But considering how their offense did nothing, I question if they can even get to 4 wins. The only reason it was close with the Eagles was because Vick threw it WAAAAAYYYYY more times than he should have. If they took about 15-20 of those throws and put them in the hands of various Philly RBs, they probably get another couple TDs (and fewer turnovers), and get an easy win.

[MartinC]

I hope you don't mind a quick off-topic question on your thread, DG. I have a question for those of you keen on QB mechanics.

The Shanahans reportedly tried to get McNabb to throw from a wider base. Drew Brees throws from a wide base as does Andrew Luck. They seem to do pretty well with it.

But, I'm wondering if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages: 1) the lower release point vulnerable to tipped balls; and 2) the ball will sail high when the weight shift gets a little ahead of the arm.

Back in the day, conventional wisdom was that "over striding" was a fault, but QBs threw from a narrow base then.

Any opinions on this?

I think this is one of those things, like many in life, where too little is bad and too much is bad as well.

I did not have a strong arm so for me proper footwork and a good base was essential to get velocity into the throw - perhaps as a result this is something I always look for when I am watching QBs at all levels. If your base is too small your not getting weight transfer or enough body into the throw as well as leg drive and hip and shoulder rotation which give you both zip on the pass and accuracy. You end up throwing with your arm only.

However if you are over striding and have too big a base that's also a problem - it slows down your release, lowers your release point (leading to tips as you say) and also means you are not transferring your weight properly and much like a QB who has too small a base you end up throwing more with your arm alone with not enough drive from your legs, hips and the weight transfer. If you over stride it also effects your balance and makes it harder to move and reset if you need to.