Of Guns and Abortions

[Voice_of_Reason]

I'm one of those people who isn't quite sure what to think on either issue.

I don't own a gun, but that may change in light of recent events. But even though I don't currently own one, I don't think it's my place to tell other law abiding citizens that they can't have guns. I don't see why it's necessary to be able to own an AR-15 assault rifle though.

I would never ask my girlfriend to have an abortion, and not because of religious reasons. I believe in taking responsibility for my actions. If I accidentally knocked her up, I'd put my best foot forward and help raise the kid. But at the same time, I don't think it's my place to tell others they shouldn't be able to do so.

I think as a culture, we try to make everything black and white when there should be a middle ground to every issue. It's like we all want to be down with a particular group and therefore take sides on issues such as these. We have a gang mentality, if you will.

I'm as befuddled as you are OP.

So you and I are pretty much in agreement here. I generally come down on the side of, "the less the government tells me what I can do, the better." Obviously, within reason. So, do I think you should be able to walk into any corner grocery and buy an assault rifle? No. Do I think that there should be a serious background check for people owning a deadly weapon? Yes. Do I think that if you want to own a weapon, have the appropriate license, training and reason, you should be able to? Yes. In a lot of places, it's harder to get a driver's license than a gun permit. That seems a bit out of whack.

I don't own a gun, and I don't want to. However, I also don't think my personal beliefs should be imposed on society at large.

On abortion, I personally am pro-life. This is not for religious reasons either. But I can't imagine asking a past girlfriend to have an abortion. (Married now, wanting kids, so situation is a little different. ) But I also don't think it's my, or the government's, position to tell a woman what they can/cannot do. Again, shades of grey. I do think that there's a line when you should not have an abortion. But in general, I don't want to impose my personal value judgments on others.

I do find it slightly fascinating that the Republican Party has taken a stance of "All Life is Sacred" which is the basis of the pro-life stance, yet are pro capitol punishment and anti-gun control. Each stance has extraordinarily powerful arguments, but when you take them all together, it's a bit of a confusing story.

And I'm a member of neither party. I think they're both all hosed up. For very different reasons.

[twa]

I do find it slightly fascinating that the Republican Party has taken a stance of "All Life is Sacred" which is the basis of the pro-life stance, yet are pro capitol punishment and anti-gun control. Each stance has extraordinarily powerful arguments, but when you take them all together, it's a bit of a confusing story.

.

Speaking for myself...you need to add innocent before Life and it removes the confusion

A murderer forfeits their life thru their deed and guns are for protection....and WAR (which is another matter)

There is no such a thing as a choice w/o consequences

[AsburySkinsFan]

Speaking for myself...you need to add innocent before Life and it removes the confusion

A murderer forfeits their life thru their deed and guns are for protection....and WAR (which is another matter)

There is no such a thing as a choice w/o consequences

What's even more interesting is the failure of the "eye for an eye" folks to recognize that those were a limitation of the level of justice that could be exacted upon an offender, much like Moses allowing divorce...because their hearts were hard. Those limit how just justice to equality, rather than like the story I heard this morning in church from our Ugandan missionaries who witnessed a man beaten to death for causing a minor fender bender. When we hear "eye for an eye" in the context of total injustice, it brings order. But, now we look at it through the lense of Christ and we realize that the Law of Moses was incomplete in that it isn't the fullness of righteousness but rather given to reign in those who were hard of heart and didn't know better. However, too often we look at the Law "eye for an eye" as God's demanded level of justice, when in Christ we see a very different image of the measure of grace and forgiveness God is willing to extend to us.

But....that's probably another thread.

[Wrong Direction]

I think it's very difficult to reconcile political positions of the major parties. I could give it a try, but as Jumbo points out that could start something I don't want to get into.

Speaking for myself, I just appreciate people who try to think through things in terms of what position they'd take and what the repercussions would be. As an example, a simplistic position on guns would be to ban and confiscate them all. However, next you have to think of the constitution, political reality, individual rights to protect one-self or one's home, etc.

What I've come to with position after position is the recognition that major issues don't have simple answers and the real positions of our leading political thinkers - if ever put on the record - are much deeper than the overly simplistic talking points and press releases out there for the masses. Pro Choice and Pro Life are about as accurately descriptive as calling the earth a blue planet, yet that's exactly what modern politics has reduced much of our political discussions to today.

[twa]

I don't want my right to defend my life(and that of others) to be infringed on,and I will gladly extend that same level of choice to abortion.

If I end a life w/o a credible risk to life I have made a choice that should be unacceptable ....I expect as much restraint from others

I'll bow out of this now

[China]

World maps of gun ownership, homicides by guns per 100,000 population and % homicides by guns:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map

[Popeman38]

World maps of gun ownership, homicides by guns per 100,000 population and % homicides by guns:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map

That first map makes it look like 70-100% of the US population owns a gun.

[DjTj]

That first map makes it look like 70-100% of the US population owns a gun.

It's like how 20% of Americans have 90% of the wealth. 20% of Americans probably own 90% of the guns.

[Jumbo]

Demographically, most gun owners are pro life.

The universe is magical.

I'm an outlier (in most everything). :pfft:

In fact, I want my body embalmed and encased in plexiglass, sitting atop the burial plot, with the word "Outlier" on a tallish tombstone. :cool:

[Kilmer17]

I dont think it's fair or appropriate to make assumption that because I feel one way about one issue, it would lead me to feel the same about another.

I believe abortions should remain legal, without any restrictions.

And I think the 2nd amendment makes it legal for me to own a gun. But not a military grade weapon.

Our Bill of Rights are not limitless. I see nothing wrong with limitting the type and kind of gun I can own, and that the debate should focus there, and not on whether I can own ANY gun.

This latest tragedy would not have been prevented, even with super strict gun laws. It just would have been limitted in its scope of terror.

[skinsmarydu]

Kilmer, I agree with everything you wrote. Wow.

[Jumbo]

Yup, a well designed stance in a well expressed post, K17.

[Larry]

Maybe a little OT for this thread, but a little on topic, too. I still recall what I think was the only time I ever heard Rush Limbaugh make what I considered to be a rational, logical, valid point. (And I used to be a very regular listener to his show, 10-15 years ago.)

At the time, Congress was discussing the Assault Weapons Ban. The NRA, and the GOP, were, predictably fighting it.

Rush observed that there seemed to be a lot of people who were loudly expressing the opinion that anybody who opposed the Assault Weapons Ban, on the grounds that it was the first step in a covert plan to take away all guns, was obviously so paranoid that not only should their entire "side" of the political discussion be ignored, but that all of them should be locked up, undergoing treatment.

And he stated that he wanted to address his next comment to those people. Those folks who believed that it was literally, delusionally, insane, to oppose banning assault weapons, based on the belief that the government wanted to take away all guns.

His comment to them was: How many of you are sworn to oppose any attempt to ban partial birth abortions, on the grounds that it's merely the first step in a plan to ban all abortions?

[Son of Gadsden]

I get the point of the post, and not to take my obvious bias and try to become a part of the irony...but I don't really feel that the comparison is accurate.

Gun control has never been proven to fix anything. New York, Massachusetts, and California have some of the strictest gun laws in the country, while Virginia notoriously has the most lenient. Virginia has a lower crime rate than all three. I'm not trying to argue here. I'm justifying my point on the OP.

Lack of gun control is not a direct form or proven reason for killing, tools of death have always been around...and the will to kill will always be greater than the means. Abortion is direct killing. Whether you believe the fetus is a human or not, it's being destroyed. Guns are used for defense in most cases statistically.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a firearms homer, and I get the irony attempting to be portrayed, I just see the comparison as being inaccurate. But for those who are about to flame me, I'm pro life but also pro choice. I think you shouldn't get an abortion, but the government shouldn't have anything to do with it.

[NavyDave]

Demographically, most gun owners are pro life.

The universe is magical. :cool:

Really? So that must mean that most of the anti Gun types are pro abortion types, who kill a lot more potential Americans in a month than those gun crazies in a year. But should I fake being outraged that liberals are purging themselves out of the population.

I don't see any vacuum hose control laws coming up for a vote anytime soon though.

The Arizona mass murderer was a left leaning anarchist and this Med Student turned Evil incarnate, from the Peoples republic of California said on a dating site that he was a moderate.