Disappointed in Orakpo's Play

[KDawg]

Wow. This is crazy. Trade Orakpo? Orakpo is mediocre? And my hope in Extremeskins takes another ding. The guy is an elite pass rusher, every team we face knows, and they game plan to keep him off of their QB. He goes against the best pass blocker, and often gets doubled. He is constantly collapsing his side of the pocket, just because he doesn't average 3 sacks a game doesn't mean he isn't playing. As far as his coverage skills, yeh they are definitely lacking right now, and hopefully he can still develop that. But Haslett could help him by moving him around the line and having him do less covering and more pass rushing. The only thing RK is better than Rak at is coverage, where he is actually pretty good, all things considered.

Just take a deep breath, back away from the ledge. It wasn't Orakpo's fault the D got abused. The secondary had more to do with that then anything, letting Steve Smith do whatever he wanted out there.

Yes. Rak is a mediocre OLB.

He is also an elite pass rusher. No harm in admitting that, he's still a very good weapon and player for us

[gamecokskins703]

I don't agree at all. He's a great fit in our defense that can create a Terrell Suggs like impact. He wears lots of hats in our defense and does lots of things well.

I don't understand all the whistful talk about playing him at DE or moving him from LB because he's a failure there. The guy has 23 sacks in 36 games as a base set linebacker. Obviously he can handle the position since he is producing at a Probowl level.

This is an odd time to criticize him because he's in the midst of his most impressive season yet IMO.

Yes he does do ONE thing well. Which is rush the passer. He's not even good at diagnosing plays behind the line of scrimmage. Brian Orakpo's impact is one dimensional. He's not a multi-faceted OLB that can stop the run, rush the QB, and have to cover if necessary.

Even if he is "producing" at a pro bowl level... wasn't it because he won it by default when the real elite players were in the superbowl?

All im saying, is people will soon start to realize how one dimensional Orakpo REALLY is. especially since Kerrigan is starting to look like the OLB that every 3-4 coordinator dies for.

[Skinzfever2010]

He is in the wrong scheme.

[Slateman]

Wow. This is crazy. Trade Orakpo? Orakpo is mediocre? And my hope in Extremeskins takes another ding. The guy is an elite pass rusher, every team we face knows, and they game plan to keep him off of their QB. He goes against the best pass blocker, and often gets doubled. He is constantly collapsing his side of the pocket, just because he doesn't average 3 sacks a game doesn't mean he isn't playing. As far as his coverage skills, yeh they are definitely lacking right now, and hopefully he can still develop that. But Haslett could help him by moving him around the line and having him do less covering and more pass rushing. The only thing RK is better than Rak at is coverage, where he is actually pretty good, all things considered.

Just take a deep breath, back away from the ledge. It wasn't Orakpo's fault the D got abused. The secondary had more to do with that then anything, letting Steve Smith do whatever he wanted out there.

ELITE?!?! How is he elite?! Dwight Freeny, Jared Allen, Demarcus Ware, Julius Peppers ... these are elite pass rushers. These are guys who demand double teams and still get pressure. Orakpo is good, at best. He's a bull rusher. He pushes. But he gets beat way to easily on a counter or draw play.

Orakpo is a good pass rusher. Not great, not outstanding, but good. He has a lack of depth in his ability. He doesn't spin, use a swim move or any real technique. He simply attempts to bullrush around the edge. Which would be fine if we had taken him in the 3rd round. But we didn't. We took him in the first. He is supposed to be our Demarcus Ware and he's no where near that level. He isn't consistent. He tends to break out in one game and then disappear for two or three games. Honestly, the only real game he was a force was the St Louis game.

He is awful at anything other than pass rushing. He is lost against the run and completely overmatched in pass coverage. Demarcus Ware is neither of these things. Bottom line is that Orakpo is a specialty pass rusher, like Cameron Wake or Elvis Dumervil. He hasn't shown, in his third year, that he can be an all around, complete linebacker. Kerrigan is already just as good as Orakpo.

As for Sunday, I put the blame on Orakpo as much as anyone else. Cam Newton had all day to throw in the second half.

[Riggodrill44]

He's just watching the game and coming up with the same legitimate criticisms of Orakpo that others have been bringing up for some time now. Orakpo is an elite physical specimen but he is not an elite pass rusher and his coverage and run-stopping skills are somewhat lacking.

Stop sugar coating it.Orakpo is not a very good football player.He does have value and it would be great if we can flip him for a couple of picks

---------- Post added October-24th-2011 at 12:12 PM ----------

He is in the wrong scheme.

Yeah he has to play football.

[Going Commando]

Orakpo is a very good player but imo, he's not a dominant, franchise type defender.

Out of curiosity, who do you consider a franchise type defender? Also what are your rough guidelines for making that kind of classification? Canton bound player? Dynamic playmaking skill? Well roundedness? I can't really think of a great working criteria, but I'm going to try and come up with a list of the current franchise caliber defenders in a little while.

I agree with you that Orakpo isn't a franchise caliber defender like DeMarcus Ware, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, or Mario Williams. That's not really his pedigree nor his role IMO. Think Terrell Suggs for him instead of DeMarcus Ware and you start to understand his strengths and how he fits and what his place will be in a dominant defense much better IMO.

I also think you can definitely field a dominant defense without any superstars and franchise type defenders. You can definitely build a top level defense with Orakpo as your best player.

Proof? Let me get Socratic and ask questions:

Is there anyone on the Bengals', Browns', Saints', Chargers', Bills', Jaguars', Giants', Titans', Chiefs', and Seahawks' defenses that you would take over Brian Orakpo? Those are most of the top defenses in the league according to yardage and scoring.

Is there anyone on the Jets' you would rather have than him aside from Revis? On the Cowboys aside from Ware? 49ers aide from Willis? Patriots aside from Mayo? Houston aside from Mario Williams?

Considering age as a factor, is there anyone on the Ravens, Falcons, or Steelers that you'd take over Orakpo? I don't think I'd take Woodley or Ngata over Orakpo, and they're my closest choices.

When you start thinking about it like that, Orakpo's value comes into better perspective IMO. He's one of the most valuable, long term defensive building blocks in the entire league.

And FWIW, I think LaRon, when mostly healthy, is our franchise type defender who'd be the best player on the team if not for London, so that was kind of a moot exercise anyway.

[RichmondRedskin88]

Sadly we never play to our players strengths. We just make them fit. Welcome to the round block meets Square hole.

[Going Commando]

I guess people have already forgotten how well he played in the Giants and Rams games. He made an impact in all phases of his position and on special teams in those games, providing signature big plays in the 4th quarter to help seal both wins.

[RichmondRedskin88]

I completely agree. Rak had the blind side of Cam and only went for a sack at the red zone. Should have went for a strip and not worry about getting a sack to improve his stats...

And this play calling needs to be better. Even people watching the game can tell what the Skins are going to do.

and if he screws up the strip Cam potentially escapes and runs for TD. Than everyone is yelling at RAK for not wrapping up.

[Botched]

I was watching the Colts/Saints game last night, and in the first quarter, a Colts tackle held a Saints pass rusher for about 1/8 second. The ref had that flag pulled out without hesitation and the Colts got called for holding. Actually I may have the teams backwards but it doesn't matter.

What was funny was that it looked absolutely identical to the 46 times per game that Brian Orakpo is held. Well, aside from the penalty flag.

[tdigle]

So you are going to trade arguably our best player for a 2nd round pick. Unbelievable.

Yeah, I have no clue why you'd accept a 2nd for Orakpo when he could easily get you a 1st and probably another conditional 1st (if not a 1st, then definitely a 2nd).

[Dro89]

Out of curiosity, who do you consider a franchise type defender? Also what are your rough guidelines for making that kind of classification? Canton bound player? Dynamic playmaking skill? Well roundedness? I can't really think of a great working criteria, but I'm going to try and come up with a list of the current franchise caliber defenders in a little while.

I agree with you that Orakpo isn't a franchise caliber defender like DeMarcus Ware, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, or Mario Williams. That's not really his pedigree nor his role IMO. Think Terrell Suggs for him instead of DeMarcus Ware and you start to understand his strengths and how he fits and what his place will be in a dominant defense much better IMO.

I also think you can definitely field a dominant defense without any superstars and franchise type defenders. You can definitely build a top level defense with Orakpo as your best player.

Proof? Let me get Socratic and ask questions:

Is there anyone on the Bengals', Browns', Saints', Chargers', Bills', Jaguars', Giants', Titans', Chiefs', and Seahawks' defenses that you would take over Brian Orakpo? Those are most of the top defenses in the league according to yardage and scoring.

Is there anyone on the Jets' you would rather have than him aside from Revis? On the Cowboys aside from Ware? 49ers aide from Willis? Patriots aside from Mayo? Houston aside from Mario Williams?

Considering age as a factor, is there anyone on the Ravens, Falcons, or Steelers that you'd take over Orakpo? I don't think I'd take Woodley or Ngata over Orakpo, and they're my closest choices.

When you start thinking about it like that, Orakpo's value comes into better perspective IMO. He's one of the most valuable, long term defensive building blocks in the entire league.

And FWIW, I think LaRon, when mostly healthy, is our franchise type defender who'd be the best player on the team if not for London, so that was kind of a moot exercise anyway.

[Going Commando]

Sadly we never play to our players strengths. We just make them fit. Welcome to the round block meets Square hole.

Why do people keep saying this? The 3-4 we run with all of the different packages Orakpo subs in on is certainly one of Orakpo's best scheme fits in the NFL. If people think he's a bad run defender now then what would they think if he played DE every down in a Bears, Bengals, or Titans like 4-3?

Playing OLB actually minimizes Orakpo's relative weakness in run defense...

Maybe you have him play a read and react cover 2 end like Freeney does with the Colts but frankly, that scheme kind of blows as a whole and that's why hardly anyone still runs it. It's just a bad run defense unless your stack LBs are All Pros.

Or maybe you run a Dom Capers style 3-4 base where Orakpo gets used like Clay Matthews with loose assignments and simple dip and rip rushes 99% of all outside pass rushes when he's lined up at OLB + some inside-out stunting and blitzing when he moves inside. Orakpo could probably do that pretty well and I know he's been an effective blitzer from ILB before. He's sudden enough to be dangerous stunting.

But I don't know if we've got the players around Orakpo to support that kind of a scheme--not sure we have the right kinds of defensive linemen and we definitely don't have the kind of secondary the Packers built to cover up mistakes from their front. And I definitely know that Haslett is not on Capers' level as a coordinator. I don't think anyone is, probably not even LeBeau, the Ryans, or Phillips.

Since you brought it up, what would you do differently with Orakpo? How would you alter the scheme to better suit him? How would you refit him considering the context of our defensive roster?

[skinsmania123]

This is why I cannot STAND many of the people on here. You think because Orakpo doesn't lead the league in sacks or because Carolina ran toward him today that he isn't an outstanding player. If you feel that way you, quite simply, are wrong. Ask anyone of your friends that aren't Redskins fans about guys on our team like Orakpo or Landry and they will tell you how much they wish they had that guy on their team or how good they are. Many on this board strongly undervalue or underrate several of our players and consistently say there is no talent on this team or this team sucks.

For anyone who wants to talk **** about Orakpo not being the type of player that DeMarcus Ware is, here's a little STAT for you! Over Orakpo's first 37 games of his career he has 24 sacks. Anybody want to know how many sacks Ware had over his first 37 games? I'll tell you. Ware had exactly 24 sacks in his first 37 games. If you want to complain about the fumbles, that's a little more acceptable because Orakpo has only forced 4 fumbles in those 37 games/24 sacks whereas Ware had forced 9. That's fine - I was a little frustrated that Orakpo simply tried to spear through Cam rather than go for the ball as well. But you know what, out of 4.5 sacks this year, Orakpo has forced 2 fumbles. That's showing improvement if you ask me.

Hey, guess what Extremeskins, guess who else has played in exactly 37 games in their career? CLAY MATTHEWS. Want to know how many sacks he's had in his first 37 games? I'll tell you. Clay Matthews has had exactly 25.5 sacks. That's 1.5 sacks more than Orakpo. Anyone still want to ***** about forced fumbles? Matthews has forced an astounding 3 fumbles in his 37 games! Shocking, I know.

And for all of those of you that want to ***** that he doesn't show up in big games or clutch moments, you are out of your minds. Think about last year - he was KILLING Dallas in week 1 and drew I think 3 holding penalties in that game which was ridiculous, including the one that ended the game. He should/would have had about 4 sacks in that game. How about a few weeks later against the Packers (aka the team that went on to win the Super Bowl)? Orakpo had 2 sacks in that game!

If you want to continue to ***** about a player who is one of the best on our roster, at least do the research or understand the game before you pull some bull**** out of your ass. Orakpo has made the Pro-Bowl each of his first two years in the league. He has dominated games and shown a propensity to put teams away when we are playing with the lead - a situation many pass-rushers find themselves in much more often than Orakpo. His run defense is not his strength and yet he's still pretty damn good at it. He was brought in to be an elite pass-rusher and that's exactly what he is. Kerrigan is more fluid in his hips and a better run defender - shocker, but everyone knew he was a little stronger in that area coming in. And before you want to ***** too much about Orakpo's run defense or the fact that some teams have run more to the left, consider a few novel ideas:

Most teams put their best blockers/tackle on the left side to protect their quarterback. Typically, these guys are a little better at pass-blocking AND run-blocking. That's WHY they play on the left side. You don't draft tackles in the 1st round to play the right side. You may have heard of this guy named Jordan Gross - he's one of the best LT's in the game and is compensated monetarily as such. A couple years ago when he was a FA before we drafted Trent Williams, we REALLY wanted him. Maybe that has a LITTLE something to do with why the Panthers ran to the left.

Just a few things to think about for the incredibly ignorant.

Great stats to back up your point. The problem is that fans look for scapegoats and single out individual players. We need more calibar players on Defense. That is our problem. I think Rak is a good player that has his bad moments. All good players do. He did not look good against the run yesterday but none of the players looked good against the run yesterday. In the first half they ran all over the D and once they beat us down in that area in the first half they threw at will against our secondary and we got our asses handed to us. Playing 10 yards off receivers is not going to bode well, and if we play bump and run we would be toasted as well. The interesting part is that Carolina PLANNED to play us this way. Run, run, run in the 1st half and throw, throw, throw in the second.

I think Orakpo is a good player that has SOME good players around him on D like Kerrigan. But when I think about our Defense I can only think of 4 players I would not want to trade and Orakpo is one I would not trade. I would have 0 problem trading our safety Landry. Or Doughty, and DHall to use as leverge to move up in the draft next year. We have so many problems to contend with I would not want to bring in a franchise QB yet. How about a shutdown corner? How about a better free safety? Look at our OL? It needs help still. So to isolate a decent player like Orakpo is ridiculous. He is part of making this team a good team in the future, but we need parts around him and on offense.

[Going Commando]

and if he screws up the strip Cam potentially escapes and runs for TD. Than everyone is yelling at RAK for not wrapping up.

Agreed. Our defense already sells out to strip a little more than is probably healthy. First priority is always to make the tackle IMO. If you're not in great position to chop on a sack then I think it's far better to just wrap up. Cam Newton is built like Thor and he's quick and elusive as a deer.

Criticizing someone for not forcing a fumble when they get a sack is nitpicking. It's a positive play, plain and simple.

[dballer]

ELITE?!?! How is he elite?! Dwight Freeny, Jared Allen, Demarcus Ware, Julius Peppers ... these are elite pass rushers. These are guys who demand double teams and still get pressure. Orakpo is good, at best. He's a bull rusher. He pushes. But he gets beat way to easily on a counter or draw play.

Orakpo is a good pass rusher. Not great, not outstanding, but good. He has a lack of depth in his ability. He doesn't spin, use a swim move or any real technique. He simply attempts to bullrush around the edge. Which would be fine if we had taken him in the 3rd round. But we didn't. We took him in the first. He is supposed to be our Demarcus Ware and he's no where near that level. He isn't consistent. He tends to break out in one game and then disappear for two or three games. Honestly, the only real game he was a force was the St Louis game.

He is awful at anything other than pass rushing. He is lost against the run and completely overmatched in pass coverage. Demarcus Ware is neither of these things. Bottom line is that Orakpo is a specialty pass rusher, like Cameron Wake or Elvis Dumervil. He hasn't shown, in his third year, that he can be an all around, complete linebacker. Kerrigan is already just as good as Orakpo.

As for Sunday, I put the blame on Orakpo as much as anyone else. Cam Newton had all day to throw in the second half.

I wonder how much Demarcus Ware you actually watch. Or any of those guys you mentioned. Orakpo has more tackles and more FF than Ware. Has double the amount of tackles that Freeney has, same amount of sacks. More tackles and sacks than Peppers. Not to mention that all of these guys you are talking about are established vets. Don’t forget that this is only Orakpo’s third year, and second as an OLB. Why don’t you go back and look at all of your “elite” guys numbers in their first two years. Orakpo had 19.5 sacks his first two years. Ware = 19.5, Allan = 20. Freeney = 24. Julius Peppers = 19. Tackle number better than all of those except Allan.

As far as him not spinning, good. I hate seeing pass rushers spin, takes too much time, too easy to get them out of their lane. He doesn’t use swim moves? Do you watch the games? No real technique? Well Jesus maybe if he actually used some technique he would get 5 sacks a game…think of how much potential he must have if it is only his raw ability that puts him with the sack leaders in the NFL. He is one of our few real talents and some of you are ready to trade him away. Hilarious.

[RandyHolt]

I wonder about RAK not rushing the QB. We need to hope Kerrigan can a solid coverage guy. I too wish we let these guys be hand in dirt attack the QB and ball every play. Does anyone want to see Rak or Kerrigan in coverage? You need to get used to it unless we go with the 5 man rush.

3-4s come down the NT. We are going with a light undersized NT. When problems happen, you need to look there. I dont know how he graded yesterday, but suspect he didnt do well.

[Lar0n Landry]

orakpo is vastly overrated.

fact: he has never recorded a sack against an NFC east team his entire career.

[dballer]

Incredible. Rabble, rabble, rabble? Half the people in this thread want to compare Orakpo to Ware to say what he isn't. When in reality he has actually matched Ware's performance through the beginning of their careers. Rak has been one of the best homegrown players we've had on offense or defense in a LONG time. He's been exactly as productive as Clay Matthews through the same amount of games despite the fact that the Packers almost always play with the lead forcing the other team to become one-dimensional on offense. We've seen what Orakpo does when given that opportunity in games against Oakland (4 sacks) and St. Louis (2.5 sacks) for example.

Orakpo is an elite pass-rusher and an average run defender. Many of the best pass-rushers in the league are not great in coverage or against the run. Just because he's not the most complete and dominant linebacker in the league some people are calling for his head or want to trade him? Get a clue. This team has been begging for a pass-rush since the mid to early 90's, we finally have two great pass-rushers and people are complaining because Orakpo isn't Phillip Daniels against the run and Kerrigan is a better run-defender? I just don't get it.

If you want to complain, complain about the fact that their are only 2 players the Panthers have on offense - Steve Smith and Cam Newton. We failed to cover or even slow Steve Smith down all day. That's what lost us the game.

Thank you. I overlooked your posts the first time through this thread, at least someone here watches the games.

[Going Commando]

orakpo is vastly overrated.

fact: he has never recorded a sack against an NFC east team his entire career.

So the 23.5 other ones don't count?

Also technically he got a half sack against the Eagles last season.

[Lar0n Landry]

So the 23.5 other ones don't count?

Also technically he got a half sack against the Eagles last season.

they count but it just shows he doesn't come up big in division games aka the most important games.

he can't be counted on to give a consistent effort. sometimes he plays hard, other times he looks uninterested and like he's going half speed. which was the knock on him coming out of college and his has held true in his NFL career. he is physically and athletically gifted enough be a GREAT OLB. but imo he doesn't have the passion to put in the work to reach his full potential.

[Slateman]

So you are going to trade arguably our best player for a 2nd round pick. Unbelievable.

He's not even the best linebacker on the team. London Fletcher > everyone. Landry is the second best defensive player. I would even put Atogwa over Orakpo.

I was watching the Colts/Saints game last night, and in the first quarter, a Colts tackle held a Saints pass rusher for about 1/8 second. The ref had that flag pulled out without hesitation and the Colts got called for holding. Actually I may have the teams backwards but it doesn't matter.

What was funny was that it looked absolutely identical to the 46 times per game that Brian Orakpo is held. Well, aside from the penalty flag.

And then there's this argument. There's holding every play. Deal with it. Perhaps Orakpo needs to get better at selling it. Or maybe what you see as holding, the refs see as acceptable. But I'm so tired of this argument. I'm sure that our offensive linemen hold as much as anyone else's.

I wonder how much Demarcus Ware you actually watch. Or any of those guys you mentioned. Orakpo has more tackles and more FF than Ware. Has double the amount of tackles that Freeney has, same amount of sacks. More tackles and sacks than Peppers. Not to mention that all of these guys you are talking about are established vets. Don’t forget that this is only Orakpo’s third year, and second as an OLB. Why don’t you go back and look at all of your “elite” guys numbers in their first two years. Orakpo had 19.5 sacks his first two years. Ware = 19.5, Allan = 20. Freeney = 24. Julius Peppers = 19. Tackle number better than all of those except Allan.

As far as him not spinning, good. I hate seeing pass rushers spin, takes too much time, too easy to get them out of their lane. He doesn’t use swim moves? Do you watch the games? No real technique? Well Jesus maybe if he actually used some technique he would get 5 sacks a game…think of how much potential he must have if it is only his raw ability that puts him with the sack leaders in the NFL. He is one of our few real talents and some of you are ready to trade him away. Hilarious.

Ware is heads and shoulders a better linebacker than Orakpo

Ware 2010: 66 tackles, 15.5 sacks, 2FF

Orakpo 2010: 56 tackles, 8.5 sacks,1FF

Ware 2009: 57 tackles, 11 sacks, 5FF

Orakpo 2009: 50 tackles, 11 sacks, 1 FF (and 6 passes defended)

Ware is so much better than Orakpo its sad.

Only his third year? Ware had 84 tackles, 14 sacks and 4 forced fumbles in his third year. Ware has become a perennial DPOY candidate.

Orakpo is in his third year, and he still has no real technique. He is poor against the run. He's lost in coverage. He is a pass rushing specialist. No more and no less.

---------- Post added October-24th-2011 at 01:12 PM ----------

they count but it just shows he doesn't come up big in division games aka the most important games.

he can't be counted on to give a consistent effort. sometimes he plays hard, other times he looks uninterested and like he's going half speed. which was the knock on him coming out of college and his has held true in his NFL career. he is physically and athletically gifted enough be a GREAT OLB. but imo he doesn't have the passion to put in the work to reach his full potential.

I don't think its that he doesn't play hard. Clearly he puts forth effort on the field. I just think its a lack of ability. He's a one trick pony. He bull rushes. Thats it. He's gotten by so long on his athleticism, that he hasn't bothered to develop any skill.

[DirtyGunz8]

Rak was out of place a lot. and was horrid against the run.

[Slateman]

Rak was out of place a lot. and was horrid against the run.

Can be said about most games the last three years.

[Redskindon2]

So sick of hearing this kind of talk. Sure let us trade Orakpo who is probably our best player to turn around and trade away the pick we would get to another team to get a player that who knows if they will work out. What kind of drugs are people on when this team loses?

I think everyone is just as frustrated as I am with losing...we all want to win now but we don't have the QB to get us there...and even when we seem pretty good then all of our good players get hurt...Trent Williams, Kory Lichtensteiger, Santana Moss, Hightower, Fletcher, Cooley, Oshiomogho Atogwe ...the list just keeps growing....we are not going to win the division or go to playoffs this year...we need another year or two of growing and drafting..we definitely need to upgrade O-line and get some depth there and we need a franchise QB...that's probably not going to happen in one more year unfortunately...we will finsih around 8-8 and if we keep losing more players even worse...as usual I have to suck it up and hope for next year already....