Disappointed in Orakpo's Play

[IrepDC]

Orakpo is NOT average. He is a beast. This year coordinators have game planned for him though. Philly was running a read play that took advantage of his aggressiveness. The same plays they ran on Ware last night, and it worked even better on him. That's good coaching. The Panthers did the same thing. Other teams are making adjustments to our players styles, and its up to our coaches and players to adjust the scheme and way we play defense.

[HailGreen28]

Rak is better than average, and I think he'll get even better.

But yeah, let's trade him. Y'all know of a probowler we can plug in his spot immediately, right?

[SkinsTribeVA]

Good post moondog. This stuff is ridiculous. If every player on our roster was 75% of the player Orakpo is (at their respective positions) this team would easily have control of the division right now. You don't build a team by trading every good young player who isn't perfect for more draft picks (who, in all likelihood, will be only as good as the guys they replace). You build a team by building a core of young players through the draft, HOLDING ONTO those players, letting them DEVELOP TOGETHER, filling in the gaps with FA's, and always trying to find that franchise QB.

Cofield, Bowen, and Carriker are all 27. Jenkins will be back next year and is only 23, as is Kerrigan, and Orakpo's only 25. We need to find someone to replace Fletcher and Rocky in the next couple years, and if an elite NT falls into our laps we need to jump on it, but outside of that we need to let this front 7 stay intact and gel. In a year or two they could be deadly.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Orakpo is NOT average. He is a beast. This year coordinators have game planned for him though. Philly was running a read play that took advantage of his aggressiveness. The same plays they ran on Ware last night, and it worked even better on him. That's good coaching. The Panthers did the same thing. Other teams are making adjustments to our players styles, and its up to our coaches and players to adjust the scheme and way we play defense.

So, Orakpo is so awesome that teams are gameplanning ways to exploit the fact that he really only does one thing on every single play.

That's, um, good...right?

[megared]

Philly was running a read play that took advantage of his aggressiveness. The same plays they ran on Ware last night, and it worked even better on him.

Are we watching the same games? Seriously? That game was a fine example of why there is no comparison between Ware and everyone else. Anytime Philly ran left, he was there. He had: 11 tackles, 4 sacks, and 5 tackles for losses. Think about that for a minute. That's better than Orakpo's best game. And he did what many in here have said is impossible: he sacked Vick in the open field (over and over again). In that one game, Ware had more than half of the number of tackles Orakpo has this month. A half sack less than Orakpo has this season...Against a divisional rival no less. There is nothing more anyone could have expected Ware to do to in that game. He was the only person getting pressure on Vick.

---------- Post added October-31st-2011 at 06:18 PM ----------

That being said, his peers on the field and coaches across the league have 2/3 of the vote and have sent him to the Pro-Bowl in each of his first two seasons. He plays with a high motor, he's a leader on our defense and is someone the coaches have consistently praised and purposely went in to the draft looking to help him out and build around him.

Which is probably why he's never been voted in outright. He's only been voted as an alternate. An injury, and a Super Bowl bound player is the only reason he saw Hawaii.

Orakpo would be much more productive in that role if we every played with a lead but that's simply not going to happen for us any time soon. The man is in his 3rd year in the league. Do I wish he'd developed a larger repertoire of moves? Sure, but I think his bull and speed rushes are outstanding and have resulted in plenty of sacks for this team this year and not just from him. I wish he was more dominant and among the tops in the league in terms of sacks but he's not quite there yet and I cannot overstate that I think this team keeps him from being there - if we were a team like the Colts have been in the past or the Texans now who consistently play with multiple score leads, it makes it easier on pass-rushers because they KNOW the other team is going to throw the ball on almost every play.

Playing from behind didn't stop Ware last night from showing why he's the best OLB in all of football. The point is, we need Rak to do more than get sacks. And he isn't even getting pressure right now, against sub-par competition. Great players rise to the occasion, not shrink in prime time. Pardon the cliche but "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem"...and what exactly is Orakpo solving right now? He's not solving our run game, he is remarkably terrible in coverage, and he isn't assisting us in getting more turnovers. If Carolina doesn't leave him unblocked on one play, he's sitting at 3.5 sacks for the season, where 2.5 came against the Rams.

If we take his sacks out of his cumulative tackle numbers, he has 21.5 tackles in 7 games. He makes 3 tackles per game that aren't sacks. Can you really look at his level of talent and say that he's doing everything possible to help this defense?

[bigdoublebass]

He is not elite by any means, but I would hate to not have him out there. If we can get more pressure from the middle(find a true NT) hopefully, he can get better numbers.

[Big Blue Joe]

Rak is better than average, and I think he'll get even better.

But yeah, let's trade him. Y'all know of a probowler we can plug in his spot immediately, right?

Osi will likely be available for a 2nd round pick in the offseason.

[moondog]

Which is probably why he's never been voted in outright. He's only been voted as an alternate. An injury, and a Super Bowl bound player is the only reason he saw Hawaii.

Playing from behind didn't stop Ware last night from showing why he's the best OLB in all of football. The point is, we need Rak to do more than get sacks. And he isn't even getting pressure right now, against sub-par competition. Great players rise to the occasion, not shrink in prime time. Pardon the cliche but "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem"...and what exactly is Orakpo solving right now? He's not solving our run game, he is remarkably terrible in coverage, and he isn't assisting us in getting more turnovers. If Carolina doesn't leave him unblocked on one play, he's sitting at 3.5 sacks for the season, where 2.5 came against the Rams.

If we take his sacks out of his cumulative tackle numbers, he has 21.5 tackles in 7 games. He makes 3 tackles per game that aren't sacks. Can you really look at his level of talent and say that he's doing everything possible to help this defense?

Again, I wouldn't even begin to argue with you about any comparison of Orakpo to Ware, there isn't one if you are looking at where they are both at right now. Ware is, in my opinion, the best OLB in football (really comparing him only to OLB in 3-4/DE in 4-3 because I think those positions are more comparable). Ware is undoubtedly a Hall of Famer in my opinion and like I said that does not come often. Look at all the amazing players who never made it to the Hall.

I understand people saying we need more from Orakpo. He does need to start to elevate his game and make more of a statement against our opponents, but that can easily be said about almost every player on our team, and that has a lot to do with it.

I appreciated your post because you gave evidence to support your argument and make several good points. I want to see Orakpo take his game to another level, but I'm not sold that it is going to happen any time this year so I won't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. But those who are saying we should trade him or just plain want to get rid of him are crazy, Orakpo is a talent that you don't simply "replace."

I get what you are saying about Ware's dominance last night or Orakpo being unblocked, but at the same time people always want to discredit OUR players for the same things they give credit to other teams' guys. Ware and every other player has racked up sacks against teams in an unblocked situation - it's a complement to the scheme and blitzing players from different spots to confuse the offense - the Cowboys are doing a great job moving Ware around to create more favorable matchups and unblocked situations for him. And saying Ware was dominant against Philly is kind of weird because it was in a rout going the other way - I agree about the stats but people can't complain about Orakpo getting his sacks in bunches in certain games but then praise other players for doing the same thing. St. Louis sucks, but clearly so do we and Orakpo's 2.5 sacks and constant pressure on Bradford all game was a big reason why we won. Orakpo got similar pressure on Vick all game long just like Ware, the difference was that he consistently took poor angles and is much more stiff than Ware and Vick was able to avoid Orakpo. I don't always see it as a problem with Orakpo getting to the quarterback as much as it is his issues with finishing the play - he seems pretty stiff in the hips and unable to quickly change direction to go from getting around the Tackle to getting to the quarterback when he steps up or moves.

[IrepDC]

So' date=' Orakpo is so awesome that teams are gameplanning ways to exploit the fact that he really only does one thing on every single play.

That's, um, good...right?[/quote']

That's not even close to what I said. He is aggressive. The Eagles ran a read play where the run would bounce outside if he attacked or it would stay inside if he played conservative. They also ran screens behind him. It was smart play calling. That's what good teams do. I don't see why that's so hard to recognise. You have to give the opponent credit sometimes.

---------- Post added October-31st-2011 at 08:15 PM ----------

Are we watching the same games? Seriously? That game was a fine example of why there is no comparison between Ware and everyone else. Anytime Philly ran left, he was there. He had: 11 tackles, 4 sacks, and 5 tackles for losses. Think about that for a minute. That's better than Orakpo's best game. And he did what many in here have said is impossible: he sacked Vick in the open field (over and over again). In that one game, Ware had more than half of the number of tackles Orakpo has this month. A half sack less than Orakpo has this season...Against a divisional rival no less. There is nothing more anyone could have expected Ware to do to in that game. He was the only person getting pressure on Vick. The Eagles also had plenty big plays running the same plays they ran against Orakpo, which is what I was referring to. The read play with McCoy, the TE screen to Celek, they ran those same plays on Ware and had just as much success.

---------- Post added October-31st-2011 at 06:18 PM ----------

Which is probably why he's never been voted in outright. He's only been voted as an alternate. An injury, and a Super Bowl bound player is the only reason he saw Hawaii.

Playing from behind didn't stop Ware last night from showing why he's the best OLB in all of football. The point is, we need Rak to do more than get sacks. And he isn't even getting pressure right now, against sub-par competition. Great players rise to the occasion, not shrink in prime time. Pardon the cliche but "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem"...and what exactly is Orakpo solving right now? He's not solving our run game, he is remarkably terrible in coverage, and he isn't assisting us in getting more turnovers. If Carolina doesn't leave him unblocked on one play, he's sitting at 3.5 sacks for the season, where 2.5 came against the Rams.

If we take his sacks out of his cumulative tackle numbers, he has 21.5 tackles in 7 games. He makes 3 tackles per game that aren't sacks. Can you really look at his level of talent and say that he's doing everything possible to help this defense?

[GO HAMSKINS]

Rakpo is a beast.. But until he becomes as dominate as Ware, and the others De's that FINISH plays Rak, will always be considered just a good player.Not a Great or dominate player

[megared]

Again, I wouldn't even begin to argue with you about any comparison of Orakpo to Ware, there isn't one if you are looking at where they are both at right now. Ware is, in my opinion, the best OLB in football (really comparing him only to OLB in 3-4/DE in 4-3 because I think those positions are more comparable). Ware is undoubtedly a Hall of Famer in my opinion and like I said that does not come often. Look at all the amazing players who never made it to the Hall.

I understand people saying we need more from Orakpo. He does need to start to elevate his game and make more of a statement against our opponents, but that can easily be said about almost every player on our team, and that has a lot to do with it.

I appreciated your post because you gave evidence to support your argument and make several good points. I want to see Orakpo take his game to another level, but I'm not sold that it is going to happen any time this year so I won't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. But those who are saying we should trade him or just plain want to get rid of him are crazy, Orakpo is a talent that you don't simply "replace."

I get what you are saying about Ware's dominance last night or Orakpo being unblocked, but at the same time people always want to discredit OUR players for the same things they give credit to other teams' guys. Ware and every other player has racked up sacks against teams in an unblocked situation - it's a complement to the scheme and blitzing players from different spots to confuse the offense - the Cowboys are doing a great job moving Ware around to create more favorable matchups and unblocked situations for him. And saying Ware was dominant against Philly is kind of weird because it was in a rout going the other way - I agree about the stats but people can't complain about Orakpo getting his sacks in bunches in certain games but then praise other players for doing the same thing. St. Louis sucks, but clearly so do we and Orakpo's 2.5 sacks and constant pressure on Bradford all game was a big reason why we won. Orakpo got similar pressure on Vick all game long just like Ware, the difference was that he consistently took poor angles and is much more stiff than Ware and Vick was able to avoid Orakpo. I don't always see it as a problem with Orakpo getting to the quarterback as much as it is his issues with finishing the play - he seems pretty stiff in the hips and unable to quickly change direction to go from getting around the Tackle to getting to the quarterback when he steps up or moves.

I don't think he needs to be replaced. But I don't like seeing that he hasn't developed his game since he came into the league. As witnessed his rookie season, he was good at getting sacks. We weren't giddy about drafting him because he'd be a liability outside of everything beyond passing situations (when he gets there). With that in mind, the knocks on him out of UT was that he needed to work on diagnosing plays, defending the run, having a high motor all the time, and being able to be serviceable in coverage for a few seconds, if called upon to do so. To date, I can't see a tangible improvement in any of those weaknesses. That's where the frustration lies. I like having supremely talented guys like Landry, Kerrigan, Carriker, Hall, and him, that go in the first round of drafts. But these guys have to look at themselves when our defense is terrible and ask themselves, what can they do better to help improve the team. To Hall's credit, he has worked on his tackling, and is a hell of a lot better in run support than he was when he first got here. Kerrigan is improving at a fast pace for a rookie. Landry and Rak seem perfectly content being what they have always been.

In that respect, I miss having Gregg Williams around. I hated his arrogance, and thought he would've made a terrible head coach, but he would've pushed Landry and Orakpo to be better. He would've broken those guys' confidence during the week, and made them either improve or sat their asses on the bench. I know Haslett doesn't command that kind of respect, and he probably doesn't have the pull to even try it. On the other hand, these guys are professional athletes. The elite ones study film so much that they know what a team is doing almost as soon as the ball is snapped. I don't get that sense from Rak or Landry. They still look like lost rookies at times, far more often than they should.

[Prototype]

Yeah, Rak seems like he is regressing a bit. I hope it's just a road bump....

[moondog]

I don't think he needs to be replaced. But I don't like seeing that he hasn't developed his game since he came into the league. As witnessed his rookie season, he was good at getting sacks. We weren't giddy about drafting him because he'd be a liability outside of everything beyond passing situations (when he gets there). With that in mind, the knocks on him out of UT was that he needed to work on diagnosing plays, defending the run, having a high motor all the time, and being able to be serviceable in coverage for a few seconds, if called upon to do so. To date, I can't see a tangible improvement in any of those weaknesses. That's where the frustration lies. I like having supremely talented guys like Landry, Kerrigan, Carriker, Hall, and him, that go in the first round of drafts. But these guys have to look at themselves when our defense is terrible and ask themselves, what can they do better to help improve the team. To Hall's credit, he has worked on his tackling, and is a hell of a lot better in run support than he was when he first got here. Kerrigan is improving at a fast pace for a rookie. Landry and Rak seem perfectly content being what they have always been.

In that respect, I miss having Gregg Williams around. I hated his arrogance, and thought he would've made a terrible head coach, but he would've pushed Landry and Orakpo to be better. He would've broken those guys' confidence during the week, and made them either improve or sat their asses on the bench. I know Haslett doesn't command that kind of respect, and he probably doesn't have the pull to even try it. On the other hand, these guys are professional athletes. The elite ones study film so much that they know what a team is doing almost as soon as the ball is snapped. I don't get that sense from Rak or Landry. They still look like lost rookies at times, far more often than they should.

Hey, I think we ALL wish Gregg Williams was still here and I couldn't agree more. In fact I think with the pass-rushing potential we have our sack total would be significantly higher than it already is if he were here. I don't get the sense that Orakpo is content, I feel like he just does not have the mass to stand up against run blocking and shed the block. As much of a beast as Orakpo is in the weight room and his stature, I truly feel like he looks thin/small on the field next to other guys. Even Kerrigan seems to just be more "massive" and thicker throughout his whole body. Orakpo can use his strength and speed to blow up tackles when they are going backwards to pass-block, but when they are coming after him I just don't think he has the size to hold them off and unfortunately lacks the ability to simply shed the blocks and make plays in the backfield against the run game.

Maybe that's something he can learn from Kerrigan, but I have a hard time seeing Orakpo as a guy who doesn't work his tail off and study film. In fact I don't see any of our defensive players not working hard or studying and that includes Landry. I still just don't see Landry having regained the form he had last year - perhaps the achilles thing still bothers him, but I still think he's performing at a very high level and does not seem to get abused in coverage anymore. He did miss his assignment on the second TD against Buffalo, but that seems to be an aberration to me.

[megared]

The Eagles also had plenty big plays running the same plays they ran against Orakpo, which is what I was referring to. The read play with McCoy, the TE screen to Celek, they ran those same plays on Ware and had just as much success.

Not really. Here's the play by play for the game for runs/short passes to the left:

1st and 10 at PHI 21 (Shotgun) M.Vick sacked at PHI 19 for -2 yards (D.Ware).

1st and 10 at DAL 28 M.Vick scrambles left end ran ob at DAL 13 for 15 yards (G.Sensabaugh).

1st and 10 at DAL 13 L.McCoy left tackle to DAL 12 for 1 yard (D.Ware).

1st and 10 at PHI 10 L.McCoy left end to PHI 16 for 6 yards (J.Hatcher).

2nd and 10 at PHI 33 L.McCoy right end to PHI 35 for 2 yards (D.Ware). Note: When's the last time you've seen Orakpo make a play not directly to him???

3rd and 8 at PHI 35 (Shotgun) M.Vick scrambles left end to PHI 44 for 9 yards (O.Scandrick). PENALTY on PHI-M.Vick, Delay of Game, 5 yards, enforced between downs.

1st and 10 at PHI 39 M.Vick scrambles left end ran ob at PHI 46 for 7 yards.

2nd and 3 at PHI 46 L.McCoy left tackle to DAL 49 for 5 yards (D.Ware).

2nd and 5 at PHI 18 L.McCoy left end to PHI 18 for no gain (D.Ware).

1st and 10 at PHI 44 L.McCoy left end to PHI 49 for 5 yards (M.Jenkins).

1st and 10 at DAL 29 M.Vick sacked at DAL 30 for -1 yards (D.Ware).

2nd and 11 at DAL 30 (Shotgun) M.Vick pass incomplete short left to L.McCoy.

2nd and 10 at PHI 42 L.McCoy left tackle to DAL 45 for 13 yards (G.Sensabaugh).

3rd and 1 at DAL 36 L.McCoy left tackle to DAL 33 for 3 yards (J.Hatcher).

1st and 10 at DAL 19 L.McCoy up the middle to DAL 21 for -2 yards (D.Ware).

1st and 10 at PHI 42 M.Vick sacked at PHI 34 for -8 yards (D.Ware). FUMBLES (D.Ware) [D.Ware], recovered by PHI-T.Herremans at PHI 34. T.Herremans to PHI 34 for no gain (D.Ware).

2nd and 12 at DAL 46 L.McCoy left end to DAL 37 for 9 yards (B.James).

3rd and 3 at DAL 37 (Shotgun) M.Vick scrambles right end pushed ob at DAL 32 for 5 yards (D.Ware). PENALTY on PHI-J.Kelce, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at DAL 37 - No Play.

2nd and 4 at PHI 26 L.McCoy left tackle to PHI 32 for 6 yards (S.Lissemore).

2nd and 4 at PHI 38 L.McCoy left tackle to PHI 41 for 3 yards (K.Coleman).

3rd and 1 at PHI 41 M.Vick sacked at PHI 29 for -12 yards (D.Ware).

1st and 10 at PHI 5 L.McCoy left end to PHI 12 for 7 yards (O.Scandrick).

2nd and 3 at PHI 12 L.McCoy left end to PHI 14 for 2 yards (K.Brooking, D.Ware).

3rd and 1 at PHI 14 L.McCoy left end to PHI 18 for 4 yards (J.Hatcher).

2nd and 9 at PHI 19 L.McCoy left end to PHI 20 for 1 yard (V.Butler).

3rd and 8 at PHI 20 L.McCoy left end to PHI 26 for 6 yards (J.Hatcher).

[jivelikenice]

Someone needs to tweet this thread over to him & gas him up for this week's game!!

[gamecokskins703]

I dont know if this has been discussed or not, but what are the pros and cons of moving Orakpo and Kerrigan around the defense. Obviously Kerrigan is the better run stopper and learning how to rush the passer at a fast rate, maybe he could line up over the LT every now and then. IDK, it just seems as if teams are starting to gameplan to run towards Orakpo or screen his way. maybe we should try switching them around

[terryb101]

Ok all the ????? marks confuse me but here goes. I disagree with you that Trent has peaked. Two years into a NFL career is waaaaaay too early to say anyone has peaked. It's ludicrous. I never said you can't watch a player to see if he will improve, if that is what you are saying, be more specific. As far as Orakpo goes his success depends on the three guys in front of him having success as well, its what the 3-4 is all about.

the (?) were for each player as in , after 2 years everybody knew ryan leaf was a bust , same thing for heath schuler, and timmy smith took less than a full season as the no.1 runner to realize he wasnt as good as they thought..thats what im saying about mr williams, he hadnt shown the improvement as one would expect to see after a full season plus the games he played this year, next year will tell. As far as Orakpo goes, if what your saying is the absolute truth how do you explain fletcher? why is he doing so well? you would think he would be having the same trouble as Orakpo.. but he has a couple of things Orakpo appears to be lacking,, desire, heart.

[Diesel__44]

Very Disappointed in his play against the Bills. He was mathched up with 6'2 305 Guard that was forced to play RT due to injuries and I heard Orakpo's name more during the commercials (Geico) than I did during the game. Not to mention that Rhinehart ate Stephen Bowen's lunch all day. It was a poor effort by the D for players not named Kerrigan and Fletcher.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Very Disappointed in his play against the Bills. He was mathched up with 6'2 305 Guard that was forced to play RT due to injuries and I heard Orakpo's name more during the commercials (Geico) than I did during the game. Not to mention that Rhinehart ate Stephen Bowen's lunch all day. It was a poor effort by the D for players not named Kerrigan and Fletcher.

Rak and Kerrigan both had 5 tackles,Rak had a fumble recovery and a half a sack.I think the sack was credit to Bowen and Fletcher, but it really was Rakpo and LF that made the sack so I think that stat will change in a few days

[Slateman]

Rak continually got badges for runs. Oh and that's it over the back up guard playing tackle? That's creaking it?!?

[HailGreen28]

Osi will likely be available for a 2nd round pick in the offseason.

Suuure we'll take your 29 year old DE. We'd love to show you the love we showed Philly with the McNabb trade. :puke:

[Skinzfever2010]

Smh @ this thread now. A bad season or a bad couple of games doesn't automatically equate to you needing to be traded. Maybe its the scheme?

[justice98]

I dont know if this has been discussed or not, but what are the pros and cons of moving Orakpo and Kerrigan around the defense. Obviously Kerrigan is the better run stopper and learning how to rush the passer at a fast rate, maybe he could line up over the LT every now and then. IDK, it just seems as if teams are starting to gameplan to run towards Orakpo or screen his way. maybe we should try switching them around

Why would that stop them from running to him? How hard is it to flip the play at the line of scrimmage. I don't think OCs and QBs are gonna be stumped by them switching sides.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2011 at 09:26 AM ----------

Osi will likely be available for a 2nd round pick in the offseason.

That would involve switching back to the 4-3 to accommodate Osi. Osi in a 3-4 doesn't sound like a good idea. He's be worse in coverage than Rak.

[Thiebear]

Getting rid of Orakpo and Cooley would only be to get Manning.

Anything less is failure. We are limited right now, lets not make it worse.

[GaryGreenMonk]

i have to say... for a guy who averages 8-12 sacks a season and has been to 2 pro bowls in his first 2 seasons..

it just doesn't seem like he does much... I don't think we've seen a single game changing play out of him yet..

an INT or forced fumble that he recovered or anything really... just some sacks and being a bit of a liability in coverage and against the run.