Re-reforming the Catholic Church

[AsburySkinsFan]

Give me enough time. I'll be back with AT LEAST 95 more theses.

This is a topic that I have a great deal of vested interest in. When I married, my wife was Catholic, I was, and remain, Lutheran. It was important to me at the time that our family attend church together, in a place where we ALL felt comfortable. I agreed to attend her church. She flatly rejected mine. (Yes, I'm well aware that that should have been a bright warning light. It was, but I was madly in love, and didn't heed it.)

Wow, after reading that I found myself getting mad too, I don't blame you a bit for being angry about that, and the signing official church documents...BAH! They could roll joints with those papers for all I care, no way my signature finds them. That said, I agree with what the others have stated from one place to another you'll find differences in the Catholic churches, to the point that I as a Methodist was served communion at a Catholic mass after having spoken with the priest about my attendance prior to the mass. I will grant that my experience is most likely the very rare exception to the rule, but it is evidence that there are exceptional churches out there. One thing that I'm reminded of as I write this is the fact that many Southern Baptist church practice closed communion as well (communion open to only baptized members of their churches) and that these communion services are held at differing times from their normal Sunday morning worship services, I know of a few that do practice this way.

[thebluefood]

Make a nun the next Pope.

Just for ****s and giggles?

[Teller]

Wow, after reading that I found myself getting mad too, I don't blame you a bit for being angry about that, and the signing official church documents...BAH! They could roll joints with those papers for all I care, no way my signature finds them. That said, I agree with what the others have stated from one place to another you'll find differences in the Catholic churches, to the point that I as a Methodist was served communion at a Catholic mass after having spoken with the priest about my attendance prior to the mass. I will grant that my experience is most likely the very rare exception to the rule, but it is evidence that there are exceptional churches out there. One thing that I'm reminded of as I write this is the fact that many Southern Baptist church practice closed communion as well (communion open to only baptized members of their churches) and that these communion services are held at differing times from their normal Sunday morning worship services, I know of a few that do practice this way.

I should've said this in my earlier post, but I was too busy ranting. A common problem with me, as you know.

The most welcoming church I've ever been to was a the Catholic mass I attended during basic training at Ft McClellan, AL. I didn't care for the generic protestant service, so I tried the mass. I talked to the Chaplain, and we became friends of sorts (as much as a nothing buck-private can with a Major.) He was gracious enough to let me serve as a lector and cantor, and to assist with communion. But I think that was more a function of the Army's requirement to accomodate faiths than of the Catholic faith specifically.

And FWIW, I signed those papers, because I loved that woman so much. My God knows what was in my heart. So those papers aren't worth the ink that's on them, IMO.

[PeterMP]

Just for ****s and giggles?

No, the Catholic Church heirarchy is dominated by men and perspectives from only men, and due to the nature of the Catholic Church (e.g. the men are all priest), they all have a similar history and a similar point of view (if you think about w/ respect to scandals, they've all been involved in the scandals at some level very likely (e.g. they all knew what was happening in terms of moving priest around)).

There are a lot of nuns, and I'm sure one of them would be a very qualified person, and the power structure would benefit from somebody that has a completely different view point and mind set, not just because of the differences due to their sex (i.e. only being female), but their role in the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church heiarchy by its very nature is the definition of an "old boys club". They'd do well to try and break that up.

[thebluefood]

Ahh, I see.

Yeah, makes sense to me. I'd be all for it.

[PeterMP]

Well they used to allow this. A number of Popes were married.

I'll let others comment on why it became prohibited.

I don't think there were ever any Popes who were married while being Pope. You can have been married and be a Pope (e.g. your wife died and then you became a Priest and then went onto be a Pope).

My understanding is they are very lax in terms of enforcing rules about marriage in Africa and certain parts of the world, but I doubt any of those people will ever move up the heirarchy.

This doesn't mean there haven't been sexually active Popes, but I think even at the time they were breaking the rules (just nobody cared to see the rules enforced (though I'm not sure how much that has changed)).

[Springfield]

I feel for you H_H. I grew up a protestant, married a woman who grew up a catholic. Neither of us currently have a religion now. I had lots of thoughts in my young protestanthood that were both confused and anti-catholic though. It's certainly a different sect that I grew up worshiping with. I don't really have much to add to this thread and I'd prefer not to speak badly of any religion. The world is filled with good people, bad people. All faiths and creeds. It's a shame that people will use these vehicles to their own greater good as well as bad.

All I have to say is...

You don't need religion to have faith.

[Chicken Fried]

The first thing they could do would be to allow female priests and allow priests to marry.

There is theology behind those Catholic policies. We're not going to change because of outside pressure.

And why does the Church get all of the heat for child molestation? As many if not more Protestant ministers have been involved with sexual abuse scandals, but all the focus is diverted.

[Cept One]

The Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon in the book of Revelations. The list of her atrocities is vast and encompasses her entire history. She fits every prophesy in the scripture. All of the early protestant leaders held this believe and its a shame that most protestant churches have gone away from teaching this. With that being said i do not believe all Catholics are bad or going to hell, it is the institution that is evil.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Rev*18:4*KJV)

[visionary]

The Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon in the book of Revelations. The list of her atrocities is vast and encompasses her entire history. She fits every prophesy in the scripture. All of the early protestant leaders held this believe and its a shame that most protestant churches have gone away from teaching this. With that being said i do not believe all Catholics are bad or going to hell, it is the institution that is evil.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Rev*18:4*KJV)

And here we go....

[grego]

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm sure the same sort of story could be told about a zillion local Protestant churches, and the Church of AshburySkinsFan would have little in common with the Westboro Baptist Church.

true, but there is one catholic church. if individual catholic parishes teach stuff contrary to the churches official teaching, i wouldnt say thats the similar to the differences between westboro and my local methodist church. the whole thing about the catholic church is its 'one true church' belief system. catholic churches may have a different style, but they are are required to hold to a basic set of beliefs, no?

or am i completely misunderstanding it?

[thebluefood]

The Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon in the book of Revelations. The list of her atrocities is vast and encompasses her entire history. She fits every prophesy in the scripture. All of the early protestant leaders held this believe and its a shame that most protestant churches have gone away from teaching this. With that being said i do not believe all Catholics are bad or going to hell, it is the institution that is evil.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Rev*18:4*KJV)

Um...30 Years War is over. You can calm down now.

[PeterMP]

There is theology behind those Catholic policies. We're not going to change because of outside pressure.

And why does the Church get all of the heat for child molestation? As many if not more Protestant ministers have been involved with sexual abuse scandals, but all the focus is diverted.

The Catholic Church should EMBRACE and beg for more of EVERY DROP of heat it gets for child molestation.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 10:59 PM ----------

true, but there is one catholic church. if individual catholic parishes teach stuff contrary to the churches official teaching, i wouldnt say thats the similar to the differences between westboro and my local methodist church. the whole thing about the catholic church is its 'one true church' belief system. catholic churches may have a different style, but they are are required to hold to a basic set of beliefs, no?

or am i completely misunderstanding it?

The basic tenants of the Church are pretty basic, but well mantained across churches. On a lot of practical issues, there is quite a bit of wiggle room. Things like its the act (the sin) not the person (the sinner (we're all sinners)) gives you a lot of wiggle room.

[Elessar78]

It's easy to overlook all the good the church does because of the scandals a few among the clergy have committed. If goodness is absent in the upper echelons of the church (which it isn't), it certainly isn't lacking in the grassroots. CAtholics aren't proud of what has transpired and we don't defend the church because of it—maybe I just speak for myself but when we go out to serve our communities (feed/shelter/clothe the destitute, educate children academically and in sports, provide medical care, etc) it's the tenets of the church that brought us to this point. So you can see why I think the concept of reform is unnecessary—the good things that the church does is still alive and well.

Again, God will mete out His justice to these people either here on earth or elsewhere. I'm fully confident that He can take care of His business.

[grego]

And why does the Church get all of the heat for child molestation? As many if not more Protestant ministers have been involved with sexual abuse scandals, but all the focus is diverted.

any priest, pastor, usher, whoever who gets caught molesting kids and then their organization covers it up- protestant, catholic, jewish, they should all be accountable

[Thiebear]

It's easy to overlook all the good the church does because of the scandals a few among the clergy have committed.

There is no amount of Good that outweighs preying on the helpless.

[Elessar78]

There is no amount of Good that outweighs preying on the helpless.

Okay, then. I'll sending out the memo for "us" to stop the soup kitchens, homeless shelters, hospitals, parochial schools, missions, donations, fund raisers, and numerous other charitable services we provide because some of our higher ups have made bad decisions. The two are completely separate things.

"One" molesting priest outweighs the work my immediate family does to bring God's grace to people? I volunteer my time to coach children, my wife volunteers weekly at soup kitchen, my mother in law volunteers her time to Prison ministry, my sister in law is a youth minister, my father and brother in law donate food weekly to area food banks. So six people touch hundreds of people with a positive experience of Catholicism, but a handful of predatory priests outweighs that?

[mcsluggo]

Give me enough time. I'll be back with AT LEAST 95 more theses.

This is a topic that I have a great deal of vested interest in. When I married, my wife was Catholic, I was, and remain, Lutheran. It was important to me at the time that our family attend church together, in a place where we ALL felt comfortable. I agreed to attend her church. She flatly rejected mine. (Yes, I'm well aware that that should have been a bright warning light. It was, but I was madly in love, and didn't heed it.)

So anyway, I decided that since she was going to be so intensely bullheaded about the topic, that I would attend RCIA (Rite of Catholic Initiation for Adults.) And I can honestly say that it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life. I was told, among other fun and exciting facts that 1) I was going to hell. 2) Even a stillborn baby that isn't baptized Catholic goes to hell. 3) That the Catholic church was the only true church, and was the only one that could trace its lineage to Jesus himself. Therefore, in today's world, they remain the only ones who are "right." 4) I'm not called to the Lord's Table. I'm not worthy. But if I decided to accept the "true" faith, that could change. (I thought that was hysterical too, because they actually pray "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word, and I shall be healed" before communion, then THEY all go.) 5) The Pope is God's official representative on earth, and he essentially speaks for God. He is infallible on matters of faith.

I could go on and on about faith differences I have with Catholics, but those are some of the highlights.

i am going to come out say that .... everything that is ever said and then relayed pases through several filters, and i have to think that the HH filter here appears brightly tinged ! but i have to say that whenever i am forced to endure something... it is very difficult to not focus on all the CRAP that I see ... nad to see ANY of the good angles that are presented to me.

right now there are two catholic churches in McLean... and i have to admit, i get the skeevies whenever I go into "the other one"

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 06:53 PM ----------

and.. overall... my current position on Catholism: I was raised Catholic. I loudly declared i didn't buy into any of it constantly as a kid/teen. As soon as i could, i stopped going. THEN, i started dating and married a good catholic girl. Apparently at some point beyond the "statute of limitations" on my memory i promised that i would be supportive of "raising children with a good foundation of religion"... and "the lawyers" have determined that to mean "now that i have children i will attend church dutifully every week" and support the education of the fundementals of religion in the young impressionable minds. (we were dating/or/married for 13 years before we had children)

so i do...

but my THOUGHTS on religion/catholisism now are a little different. i still have a hard time swallowing it all... but now i wish i COULD. I am jealous of those that have a strong core faith, but it is not s switch you can just turn on.

[AsburySkinsFan]

true, but there is one catholic church. if individual catholic parishes teach stuff contrary to the churches official teaching, i wouldnt say thats the similar to the differences between westboro and my local methodist church. the whole thing about the catholic church is its 'one true church' belief system. catholic churches may have a different style, but they are are required to hold to a basic set of beliefs, no?

or am i completely misunderstanding it?

Actually that's not completely accurate, as even within the Catholic church there are different Orders that behave and work in different ways. It's not nearly as monolithic as you paint it.

[Teller]

i am going to come out say that .... everything that is ever said and then relayed pases through several filters, and i have to think that the HH filter here appears brightly tinged ! but i have to say that whenever i am forced to endure something... it is very difficult to not focus on all the CRAP that I see ... nad to see ANY of the good angles that are presented to me.

First of all, it was my decision to try to attend church as a family. My ex would have been perfectly happy going to separate churches. This was something that I wanted to do. And I was going into it LOOKING for reasons for it to work.

I spent a great deal of time reading the Catechisms, doing my own homework, in addition to taking what was presented to me by the priests. But again, it was something I WANTED to do. So I didn't go in looking for reasons to quit. Since my ex wouldn't go to my church, it was the only option.

I fully admit that I'm bitter now. My experience was truly horrible. But again, I have nothing against Catholics at all. I support anyone in their faith, so long as it works for them. It just doesn't work for me. At all.

[Thiebear]

Okay, then. I'll sending out the memo for "us" to stop the soup kitchens, homeless shelters, hospitals, parochial schools, missions, donations, fund raisers, and numerous other charitable services we provide because some of our higher ups have made bad decisions. The two are completely separate things.

"One" molesting priest outweighs the work my immediate family does to bring God's grace to people? I volunteer my time to coach children, my wife volunteers weekly at soup kitchen, my mother in law volunteers her time to Prison ministry, my sister in law is a youth minister, my father and brother in law donate food weekly to area food banks. So six people touch hundreds of people with a positive experience of Catholicism, but a handful of predatory priests outweighs that?

You stop associating with them though right?

One molesting Priest does not, One misplaced child does not.

thousands though.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I went to Catholic school growing up. I didn't really have many "issues" with it. I do tend to think if I was Christian, I would be Catholic or Greek Orthodox, mainly because of my exposure to both growing up

[PeterMP]

So anyway, I decided that since she was going to be so intensely bullheaded about the topic, that I would attend RCIA (Rite of Catholic Initiation for Adults.) And I can honestly say that it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life. I was told, among other fun and exciting facts that 1) I was going to hell. 2) Even a stillborn baby that isn't baptized Catholic goes to hell. 3) That the Catholic church was the only true church, and was the only one that could trace its lineage to Jesus himself. Therefore, in today's world, they remain the only ones who are "right." 4) I'm not called to the Lord's Table. I'm not worthy. But if I decided to accept the "true" faith, that could change. (I thought that was hysterical too, because they actually pray "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word, and I shall be healed" before communion, then THEY all go.) 5) The Pope is God's official representative on earth, and he essentially speaks for God. He is infallible on matters of faith.

I'm sure that 1 and 2 are not proper Catholic doctrine. 4 isn't properly worded (we are all called, and none of us worthy).

As part of the RCIA class, I was required to attend mass. This was absolutely gut wrenching. I kept hearing people being TOLD what they think, rather than being told what Jesus taught. And week after week, I knelt in the pew while my wife, and 99.9% of everyone else in the church went to the Lord's Table, while I stayed back, feeling unwanted and stigmatized. Trust me. Go to a Catholic church. Don't go to communion, and see how people look at you. There are two reasons people don't go. 1) They're not Catholic. or 2) They've done something so heinous (without going to confession) that it would be an abomination. When you get the looks from the blue haired old ladies, you know damned sure which one they suspect.

I'd suspect they suspect 1. I've been Catholic along time, and the only person that I've ever known that forewent communion because of an issue with sin is ex-NJ govenor McGreavy, and he was going up to the point in time his "misdeeds" became public knowledge, and only then did he stop going to communion.

I've know lot's of people that don't go because they aren't Catholic and are there w/ Catholic family members. Though if you do attend by yourself and don't go that's always a little odd looking, but if you were there with a wife and kids, I seriously doubt anybody gave it much thought.

Confession. That's another interesting concept. And I grant that many Catholic parishes are moving away from 1-on-1 confession with a priest. But yeah. Apparently you can still go if you want to, or need to, and be told what prayer you need to repeat, and how many times to earn your absolution. (Thanks for nothing Jesus. I thought you died for me, for the forgiveness of my sins, and for my eternal life. But the "true" church disagrees, apparently.)

The Catholic Church still requires confession, though they've moved to calling it reconciliation. There are different ways to go to confession. I've never been to a confession where I was told to pray anything so many times.

The idea of confession has its roots in the Bible.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=168337

And finally, and this should have been where I looked my then-fiancee dead in the eyes and said, "I'm sorry, but I can't do this," but I had to sign official church documents that said (among other things) I would never discuss with Lynn going to another church; that my kids would be raised Catholic, and that I would effort to join the church.

You must have wanted to be married in a Catholic Church by a priest. You can be married outside of a Catholic Church and not by a Priest and still raise your kids Catholic (and if you get divorced it is in fact easier for the Catholic because the Catholic Church just says your marriage was never "real").

I'm not really sure of the problem here.

[grego]

Actually that's not completely accurate, as even within the Catholic church there are different Orders that behave and work in different ways. It's not nearly as monolithic as you paint it.

can you explain? i googled 'orders of the catholic church' and couldnt find anything relevant. youre saying theres not a basic set of beliefs that all catholics follow?

[Drew_Fl]

can you explain? i googled 'orders of the catholic church' and couldnt find anything relevant. youre saying theres not a basic set of beliefs that all catholics follow?

i think he might be referring to different "rites" possibly.

http://grigaitis.net/?doc=articles/rites.html

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 08:40 PM ----------

when i was younger, I went to both Roman rite and Maronite. Both only had subtle differences during the actual service of the mass (ie Maronite rite had Arabic parts and more singing of prayers), but all fundamental beliefs were the same.