Re-reforming the Catholic Church

[Chicken Fried]

The Catholic Church should EMBRACE and beg for more of EVERY DROP of heat it gets for child molestation.

Of course. I completely agree. The Church absolutely needs the heat in order to clean its act up and get rid of the priests who have been involved with these terrible scandals. But that wasn't what I was talking about. My point is that ALL of the focus goes on the Church while practically nothing is made about the Protestant issues with child molestation. My point is that there is a double standard.

[PeterMP]

Of course. I completely agree. The Church absolutely needs the heat in order to clean its act up and get rid of the priests who have been involved with these terrible scandals. But that wasn't what I was talking about. My point is that ALL of the focus goes on the Church while practically nothing is made about the Protestant issues with child molestation. My point is that there is a double standard.

And rather than point out that somebody else's cheek isn't being slapped, I'm saying the Catholic Church should shut up, turn its face, and offer its other cheek up for a good slapping.

[Chicken Fried]

And rather than point out that somebody else's cheek isn't being slapped, I'm saying the Catholic Church should shut up, turn its face, and offer its other cheek up for a good slapping.

You sound really bitter.

[Predicto]

can you explain? i googled 'orders of the catholic church' and couldnt find anything relevant. youre saying theres not a basic set of beliefs that all catholics follow?

Yes, there is a basic set of beliefs that all catholics follow.

Some of the stuff H_H was told is not a part of those basic beliefs. For example, it is true that the the Pope is the leader of the Church and so forth, but to say "The Pope is God's official representative on earth, and he essentially speaks for God. He is infallible on matters of faith." is not accurate. The Pope has only "Spoken for God" on extremely rare occasions, like once every 500 years or so.

Likewise, it is not a part of the basic beliefs of Catholicism that stillborn unbaptized babies go to hell. That is what St. Augustine thought, but it never became formal Church doctrine. As far as I know, there never was any formal Church doctrine on that question, although it was the subject of a lot of thought and many people believed that they went to limbo, which is neither heaven nor hell. Recently, the Vatican released a paper concluding that the idea of limbo was an unduly restrictive interpretation of God's salvation, and concluding that there was good reason to hope that the unbaptized get to heaven as well.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm

In sum, while there is a basic set of Catholic beliefs, what H_H was told about Catholic Doctrine was a bunch of baloney.

Here is a good concise discussion of the similarities and contrasts between Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_differences_between_Christianity_and_Catholicism

[Chicken Fried]

So anyway, I decided that since she was going to be so intensely bullheaded about the topic, that I would attend RCIA (Rite of Catholic Initiation for Adults.) And I can honestly say that it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life. I was told, among other fun and exciting facts that 1) I was going to hell

.

That's not Church teaching. I'd like you to explain the context.

2) Even a stillborn baby that isn't baptized Catholic goes to hell.

Again, that's not Church teaching. It's been debated, but Catholicism has no formal teaching on that from what I know.

3) That the Catholic church was the only true church, and was the only one that could trace its lineage to Jesus himself. Therefore, in today's world, they remain the only ones who are "right."

Catholics don't teach this, either. We don't say that people from other faith traditions can't make it to heaven. Of course we believe we're right. If we didn't, we wouldn't go to Mass, but that's not to say that we think Catholicism is the only way and that all others will burn in hell.

4) I'm not called to the Lord's Table. I'm not worthy. But if I decided to accept the "true" faith, that could change. (I thought that was hysterical too, because they actually pray "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word, and I shall be healed" before communion, then THEY all go.)

What is this? None of this is Church teaching. Everyone is called to the Lord's Table. Being united with Christ is what God wants. Nobody is turned away. As PeterMP said, none of us are worthy. That's the beauty of the Eucharist. God welcomes us to the Table despite our imperfections. You shouldn't feel as though you aren't wanted at Communion, though. The reason non-Catholics are not supposed to receive the Eucharist is because if you receive Communion, you are saying that you believe in transubstantiation. That's why Protestants don't receive Communion. If they do, they are essentially saying they believe in something that they actually don't. It's not a matter of welcoming; it's a matter of respect for the miracle that is the Holy Eucharist.

5) The Pope is God's official representative on earth, and he essentially speaks for God. He is infallible on matters of faith.

That is, once again, absolutely not true. The Pope does not speak for God. The Pope is a human. (Also, to clear up other misconceptions, Catholics do not worship the Pope, nor do we worship the Virgin Mary). In addition, the Pope is not infallible on matter of faith. He is only infallible when making a pronouncement on faith with the College of Bishops, meaning in union with the Church. The idea of infallibility goes back to Matthew 28:18-20, "All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." This is the same power that Christ passed on to His Apostles and their successors.

As part of the RCIA class, I was required to attend mass. This was absolutely gut wrenching. I kept hearing people being TOLD what they think, rather than being told what Jesus taught. And week after week, I knelt in the pew while my wife, and 99.9% of everyone else in the church went to the Lord's Table, while I stayed back, feeling unwanted and stigmatized. Trust me. Go to a Catholic church. Don't go to communion, and see how people look at you. There are two reasons people don't go. 1) They're not Catholic. or 2) They've done something so heinous (without going to confession) that it would be an abomination. When you get the looks from the blue haired old ladies, you know damned sure which one they suspect.

Several times I have decided not to go to Communion because I did not feel spiritually clean or present. Not once have I been chastised for doing so. In fact, many people at my church have done the same. It's not a good habit to do week after week, but if you do not feel ready and cannot go to confession, then you should not receive the Eucharist.

Confession. That's another interesting concept. And I grant that many Catholic parishes are moving away from 1-on-1 confession with a priest. But yeah. Apparently you can still go if you want to, or need to, and be told what prayer you need to repeat, and how many times to earn your absolution. (Thanks for nothing Jesus. I thought you died for me, for the forgiveness of my sins, and for my eternal life. But the "true" church disagrees, apparently.)

I've never been to confession that wasn't 1-on-1. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

To quote EWTN: http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/GOTOCON.htm

At the ascension, Jesus again charged His Apostles with this ministry: "Thus it is written that the Messiah must suffer and rise from the dead on the third day. In His name penance for the remission of sins is to be preached to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of this. (Lk 24:46ff) Clearly, Jesus came to forgive sins, He wanted that reconciliation to continue and He gave the Church a sacrament through which priests would continue to act as the ministers of this reconciliation.

[AsburySkinsFan]

can you explain? i googled 'orders of the catholic church' and couldnt find anything relevant. youre saying theres not a basic set of beliefs that all catholics follow?

There are the "basics" but then there are differences in how the faith is lived out.

[Elessar78]

Woah, woah, woah...let's not go nuts here. I'm a firm supporter of the Catholic Church. I hate the fact they're getting so much bad publicity lately. I don't know much about the inner workings of the Church and since there's an obvious problem, I want to see what people, *especially* Catholics have to say about reforming the Church.

And don't forget: we protestants don't have "ranks." We're separate, independent denominations with different ideas on theology. What one denomination does doesn't necessarily reflect on another.

My mom is Catholic and my dad was a non-practicing, Protestant. From birth until about 13 we went to Protestant services and from 14 on, following my parents' divorce and living with my mother, we started going back to Mass. In college, shocker, I attended Mass weekly. My sister, if she were to practice any Christianity would identify herself as Protestant. Although, she's married to a Jewish man and they've tried to make a go of it but my brother-in-law isn't very spiritual but still their kids go to Temple school.

Anyway, I guess my post wasn't directed at you necessarily but I felt it just gave people out there with a bone to pick or preconceptions about Catholics and the Catholic church a platform to spew ignorance or just hate (veiled or otherwise). If the thread was titled "Reconditioning Gays" or "Educating Black People" (neither group need this of course, just illustrating) I believe people would come with a bit more civility or respect. But instead, I feel, it's field day on Catholics/Catholicism. Who cares if individuals think it's deserved or not—it's just disrespectful to people who practice their faith sincerely. Coming from a non-Catholic made it even more abrasive. It'd be like someone coming up to me at a party and asking "What can we do to get your people to be on time more?"

[grego]

Yes, there is a basic set of beliefs that all catholics follow.

Some of the stuff H_H was told is not a part of those basic beliefs.

thanks predicto. years ago, i spent alot of time reading and learning about religion. i'm positive i have read many of the same things HH is talking about either in the catechism or on catholic websites. but thats another subject for another tim, and i definitely dont have the time to look into it. and dont want to derail the thread. ill check your links later. thanks again.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 08:15 AM ----------

My point is that ALL of the focus goes on the Church while practically nothing is made about the Protestant issues with child molestation. My point is that there is a double standard.

CF, i think the issue is that the catholic church is so big and powerful and the things going on are on such a huge scale, with coverups and all that stuff. i dont know if there are any protestant churches that approach the size and influence of the RCC. lord knows, there are many protestant churches with horrible reputations and with good reason. any religious organization that is involved in any kind of child molestation definitely deserves to be held accountable.

[SWFLSkins]

any priest, pastor, usher, whoever who gets caught molesting kids and then their organization covers it up- protestant, catholic, jewish, they should all be accountable

And that is why I don't go to worship there.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 08:29 AM ----------

There are the "basics" but then there are differences in how the faith is lived out.

Blanket statement for all people of any faith anywhere?

[Thiebear]

And rather than point out that somebody else's cheek isn't being slapped, I'm saying the Catholic Church should shut up, turn its face, and offer its other cheek up for a good slapping.

You sound really bitter.

I thought this was the 'standard'?

I thought as a Christian you should open up your arms and accept responsibility: Hate the sin, not the sinner.

I thought as a Christian you should scorn those that try and cover up the sin and not admit to it, say your 'Hail Mary'/'Our Fathers' and show your shame for the atrocities?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Blanket statement for all people of any faith anywhere?

That's kind of my point, because there seems to be this consensus that within the Catholic church there is 100% unanimity on all matters regarding the faith, which just isn't true.

[grego]

That's kind of my point, because there seems to be this consensus that within the Catholic church there is 100% unanimity on all matters regarding the faith, which just isn't true.

not 100% agreement on all things, but isnt that what the catechism is for?

[AsburySkinsFan]

not 100% agreement on all things, but isnt that what the catechism is for?

I teach my confirmation classes at my church, trust me it's about getting them moving the right direction, I know I'd love 100% uniformity but I'm not naive enough to expect it.

[grego]

I teach my confirmation classes at my church, trust me it's about getting them moving the right direction, I know I'd love 100% uniformity but I'm not naive enough to expect it.

ya i'm with you on that. i guess what i'm thinking is that, say a person wants to use birth control (probably not the best example as many catholics choose to go against official church teaching on this), but you do it, then go to confession, and youre good again, at least til you use birth control again. i'm sure thats not the kind of thinking the church intended, but for many, thats how it is.

thats a little off track, but, for instance, a catholic parish cant ordain a priest who is married. ive got a catechism at home and its a pretty good sized book. it covers alot of ground.

i'm sure not all catholics follow all of the teachings, but i dont think the church likes a whole lot of freelancing on things in the catechism.

[AsburySkinsFan]

i'm sure not all catholics follow all of the teachings, but i dont think the church likes a whole lot of freelancing on things in the catechism.

Those are some pretty good examples and while you're right that churches don't really encourage a lot of "freelancing" most embrace what we Methodists call "theological exploration", with proper accountability though to be sure. For instance in my ordination work I have to write a 26 page paper where I answer a wide range of theological questions, they aren't looking for carbon copy instead they are looking for consistency and compatibility.

[Chicken Fried]

I thought this was the 'standard'?

I thought as a Christian you should open up your arms and accept responsibility: Hate the sin, not the sinner.

I thought as a Christian you should scorn those that try and cover up the sin and not admit to it, say your 'Hail Mary'/'Our Fathers' and show your shame for the atrocities?

When did I ever say we shouldn't? Please, please tell me where. I would love to hear this one.

[Predicto]

ya i'm with you on that. i guess what i'm thinking is that, say a person wants to use birth control (probably not the best example as many catholics choose to go against official church teaching on this), but you do it, then go to confession, and youre good again, at least til you use birth control again.

This is a really simplistic take on someone else's belief system that you don't really understand.

[grego]

This is a really simplistic take on someone else's belief system that you don't really understand.

you didnt quote the last part of my statement-

ya i'm with you on that. i guess what i'm thinking is that, say a person wants to use birth control (probably not the best example as many catholics choose to go against official church teaching on this), but you do it, then go to confession, and youre good again, at least til you use birth control again. i'm sure thats not the kind of thinking the church intended, but for many, thats how it is

i'm talking about people i've had experience with, not you or anyone else. i even said its not what the church intended.

you've probably heard of st judas. drug addicts pray to st judas to get more drugs. that is another example of people misusing or misunderstanding teachings of the church. as i said, i'm betting the church didnt intend on this view of confession or st judas, but these attitudes exist among people. thats not an indictment of the church. its a reflection of church teaching being opposed to what followers believe.

my example was admittedly a poor one in terms saying that there a catechism that the church abides by, even when members do not.

[Drew_Fl]

you didnt quote the last part of my statement-

ya i'm with you on that. i guess what i'm thinking is that, say a person wants to use birth control (probably not the best example as many catholics choose to go against official church teaching on this), but you do it, then go to confession, and youre good again, at least til you use birth control again. i'm sure thats not the kind of thinking the church intended, but for many, thats how it is

.

you won't be forgiven unless you are truly repentant, so just b/c you can coax a priest into saying "you are absolved from all your sins", you have accomplished nothing and wasted time. don't bother going unless you are truly sorry for what you have done. it's extremely simple.