New (FL) law forbidding doctors to talk to patients about guns angers physicians

[Dan T.]

If you don't like it, when your doctor asks if you own guns, pull your FN 57 out from your waistband and caress it while talking to it softly as if the doctor isn't in the room... "He wants to know about me and you. What shall I tell him about us?" Hold it up to your ear as if listening for an answer, then nod. Put the gun back in your waistband, look at the doctor and shrug.

[twa]

related story...but I assume the refusal of service was over refusing to answer questions

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100724/ARTICLES/7241001/-1/news?Title=Family-and-pediatrician-tangle-over-gun-question

It was a question Amber Ullman least expected Wednesday from her children's pediatrician.

Do you keep a gun in the house?

When the 26-year-old Summerfield woman refused to answer, the Ocala doctor finished her child's examination and told her she had 30 days to find a new pediatrician and that she wasn't welcome at Children's Health of Ocala anymore.

[Thiebear]

Duh!, I missed the part about the Government is "telling" doctors what they can an cannot say = first amendment.

I retract all previous comments as being incorrect.

I'm quite capable of telling my doctor to mind his own damn business. (though i don't own a gun that fires).

Kicking someone out of your practice due to the above post. Well, that has a way of fixing itself by word of mouth.

If the child was deathly ill, it would be protest time.

[repo_4]

Paint chips, certain chemicals... can all be dangerous for a child (or adult) so a doctor should ask about those. Who would not know and need to be lectured about letting your 3 year old play with a loaded Glock not being a good idea? There are just a lot of people (members of Congress also) that would love to strictly limit my gun rights including take them away (see DC, San Fran, Chicago, NYC). This just has a bad taste to me.

[Burgold]

Paint chips, certain chemicals... can all be dangerous for a child (or adult) so a doctor should ask about those. Who would not know and need to be lectured about letting your 3 year old play with a loaded Glock not being a good idea? There are just a lot of people (members of Congress also) that would love to strictly limit my gun rights including take them away (see DC, San Fran, Chicago, NYC). This just has a bad taste to me.

Sigh. Why are paint chips dangerous for a child? Because they put them in their mouth. What parent doesn't know that eating paint isn't a good idea?

Asking a question is not limiting your rights!

[repo_4]

Sigh. Why are paint chips dangerous for a child? Because they put them in their mouth. What parent doesn't know that eating paint isn't a good idea?

Asking a question is not limiting your rights!

Refer to post #152. That is my fear and the reason I have such an issue with it. Some people may not know that older houses could contain lead based paints. That is why I say paint chips.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

/thread

[repo_4]

If you don't like it, when your doctor asks if you own guns, pull your FN 57 out from your waistband and caress it while talking to it softly as if the doctor isn't in the room... "He wants to know about me and you. What shall I tell him about us?" Hold it up to your ear as if listening for an answer, then nod. Put the gun back in your waistband, look at the doctor and shrug.

This actually doesnt sound like a bad idea.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Refer to post #152. That is my fear and the reason I have such an issue with it. Some people may not know that older houses could contain lead based paints. That is why I say paint chips.

Honestly, while I wouldn't approve of a doctor refusing service over you owning a gun...I wouldn't see their refusal as a violation of the second amendment. A doctor refusing service does not restrict your right to own a gun.

EDIT: However, that's not what's being argued here. Just because there is a potential that a doctor would refuse service due to gun ownership does not make this law constitutional. If that scenario were to occur we could debate it, but it hasn't and restricting the doctor's freedom of speech due to the fear that not doing so could potentially lead to the Dr. restricting your 2nd amendment rights is not an acceptable reason for this law.

[repo_4]

Honestly, while I wouldn't approve of a doctor refusing service over you owning a gun...I wouldn't see their refusal as a violation of the second amendment. A doctor refusing service does not restrict your right to own a gun.

EDIT: However, that's not what's being argued here. Just because there is a potential that a doctor would refuse service due to gun ownership does not make this law constitutional. If that scenario were to occur we could debate it, but it hasn't and restricting the doctor's freedom of speech due to the fear that not doing so could potentially lead to the Dr. restricting your 2nd amendment rights is not an acceptable reason for this law.

Ok, maybe I am merging two different arguments. To clarify, I do NOT agree that the law is right. I wouldnt want the government to mandate he HAD to ask me a certain question either. Just dont like the fact that he will ask that question and so many people see it as his right/requirement to do.

[Burgold]

It's definitely within his rights to ask it. If we made it a requirement to ask that question I might be on your side because then we get into invasion of privacy and your rights.

[repo_4]

It's definitely within his rights to ask it. If we made it a requirement to ask that question I might be on your side because then we get into invasion of privacy and your rights.

This is from the article posted earlier and pretty much wraps up why I am against them asking me the question.

"The American Association of Pediatrics urges pediatricians to ask questions of parents about gun ownership when they get children's medical histories and to suggest that parents remove guns from the home."

[Kosher Ham]

Funny that this "paint chips" caught my eye.

The doctor has no responsibility or reason to talk about that either.

However a gun discussion and a paint chip talk is a little different.

At least there is a reason to think that perhaps you may not know. With a gun and that responsibility...you should know, if you don't let the weak pass by.

[Burgold]

This is from the article posted earlier and pretty much wraps up why I am against them asking me the question.

"The American Association of Pediatrics urges pediatricians to ask questions of parents about gun ownership when they get children's medical histories and to suggest that parents remove guns from the home."

The most important words in that are "urge" and "suggest" both indicate that it is not mandatory. I've suggested to children that they eat their brocoli. Doesn't make 'em. I've urged some women to go out with me and yet they still said "no" You're safe with those two words.

[repo_4]

The most important words in that are "urge" and "suggest" both indicate that it is not mandatory. I've suggested to children that they eat their brocoli. Doesn't make 'em. I've urged some women to go out with me and yet they still said "no" You're safe with those two words.

I know it isnt a mandate. But with so many people working very hard to take that right from me, it just rubs me the wrong way. Even as a suggestion. And you just werent urging the right women.

[Henry]

related story...but I assume the refusal of service was over refusing to answer questions

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100724/ARTICLES/7241001/-1/news?Title=Family-and-pediatrician-tangle-over-gun-question

More from the article:

Okonkwo told the Star-Banner he asked Ullman about whether she had a gun in her home because of the safety of her children, and told her so.

He said he asks such questions of all his patients so he can advise parents to lock their guns away from children.

"I don't tell them to get rid of the guns," he said. "The purpose is to give advice."

He said that more than half the families he treats have guns.

No need to assume. Just read the article.

Okonkwo said the issue was not about whether the parents owned a gun.

He said the doctor and patient have to develop a relationship of trust and that if parents won't answer such basic safety questions, they cannot trust each other about more important health issues.

He said he respected a patient's right not to answer questions, but it was also his right to no longer treat them, and he isn't required by law to do so.

[Corcaigh]

This is from the article posted earlier and pretty much wraps up why I am against them asking me the question.

"The American Association of Pediatrics urges pediatricians to ask questions of parents about gun ownership when they get children's medical histories and to suggest that parents remove guns from the home."

Their research shows that it's a risk to the health of kids. I expect they recommend that people with kids don't smoke at home either.

[bcl05]

Cut and pasted from an AAP document on injury protection:

-------------

Gun Safety: Keeping Children Safe

More than 44 million Americans own firearms. Of the 192 million firearms owned in the United States, 65 million are handguns. Research shows guns in homes are a serious risk to families.

A gun kept in the home is 43 times more likely to kill someone known to the family than to kill someone in self-defense.

A gun kept in the home triples the risk of homicide.

The risk of suicide is 5 times more likely if a gun is kept in the home.

Advice to parents

The best way to keep your children safe from injury or death from guns is to NEVER have a gun in the home.

Do not purchase a gun, especially a handgun.

Remove all guns present in the home.

Talk to your children about the dangers of guns, and tell them to stay away from guns.

Find out if there are guns in the homes where your children play. If so, talk to the adults in the house about the dangers of guns to their families.

For those who know of the dangers of guns but still keep a gun in the home.

Always keep the gun unloaded and locked up.

Lock and store the bullets in a separate place.

Make sure to hide the keys to the locked boxes.

---------

What part is unreasonable? The facts are unassailable. Guns are dangerous, and kids can get hurt by them. Parents should be aware of the risks. If they are aware of them and still want guns, then they should take measures to secure them so kids don't get into them. It would be great if every parent had adequate common sense so that these conversations would be unnecessary. The unfortunate fact that so many kids continue to get injured or killed proves that there are plenty of parents who recklessly expose their kids to guns. It is the pediatrician's mission and duty to protect kids' health. Not addressing guns would be an abdication of their responsibility.

[LD0506]

Maybe it's just me (haven't been following this thread that closely) but there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here. The doctor's should be allowed to ask and people can exercise their option to decline to answer, but apparently that option entails being cut off from pediatric care? Threatening to deny doctor services to children for non-compliance is not pressure?

Now, IMO responsible gun owners should have no issue with basic safety of their firearms and shouldn't need reminding or pressure to follow commonsense guidelines to secure them in their household, but I'm not 100% comfy-cozy with a doctor cutting you off because you don't discuss it with them, no matter what the rationalization.

bcl05, I respect your opinion here for obvious reasons, would you decline to continue seeing a patient if the parents didn't want to have the discussion?

[Dan T.]

Maybe it's just me (haven't been following this thread that closely) but there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here. The doctor's should be allowed to ask and people can exercise their option to decline to answer, but apparently that option entails being cut off from pediatric care? Threatening to deny doctor services to children for non-compliance is not pressure?

They consider gun ownership a "pre-existing condition." Ask your insurance company about the term.

[Burgold]

From what I understand the number of cases of pediatricians dropping clients for this reason is miniscule. Now, the reason one gave in the case that was reported in this thread... that a doctor and their patients/guardians need to have a certain level of trust to properly take care of the kid makes a lot sense to me. They weren't dropped because they owned a gun, but because it's really hard to diagnose and treat if information is kept hidden.

Reminds me of House.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Ok, maybe I am merging two different arguments. To clarify, I do NOT agree that the law is right. I wouldnt want the government to mandate he HAD to ask me a certain question either. Just dont like the fact that he will ask that question and so many people see it as his right/requirement to do.

Point it, this law is flat out unconstitutional.

I'd actually find it encouraging if doctors were trained in gun control and talked to patients about it. Way too many people in this country are foolish about gun safety and there's nothing wrong with reminding them to keep them locked, away from kids etc etc. For you this may be common sense but we live in an exceptionally stupid country. I never assume that people have enough common sense, because they almost never do.

[LD0506]

It's definitely within his rights to ask it. If we made it a requirement to ask that question I might be on your side because then we get into invasion of privacy and your rights.

But being required to answer under threat of denial of medical services, that's ok than?

[repo_4]

They consider gun ownership a "pre-existing condition." Ask your insurance company about the term.

If that is the case, all the more reason to not answer the question. My 2nd amendment right will cost me more money in insurance premiums because my doctor asked me, I trusted and answered him and then he reported it to my insurance provider.

[Cept One]

Your driving priveleges are regulated by the state.

Oh, wait,, EVERY BUSINESS IN AMERICA is licensed by the state.

Way to go, you just kicked down to door to let anyone who has any licensure with the government to be censored.

How many licenses do you have that are governed by the state?

I wonder how many different ways they can censor you?

i see where this is going.. what did they call it? oh yeah,, gulags. the ultimate Nanny state.

Let me see which is more dangerous... censoring people's speech in America.. or writing "none of your business" on a questionairre?

The Gov't regulates many aspects of your driving privileges (speed limit, seat belts, etc). And business licenses can be revoked for offering services that you are not qualified to provide. How is a doctor qualified to speak on gun safety? As stated in my other post this law does not prevent doctors from asking about guns as long as there is a specific medical reason behind asking. People were denied service after refusing to answer this question on patient questionnaires. Why should i be compelled to answer questions which have no medical bearing?