Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Yeah, he meant the reverse, which is correct, as the Bible contains many passages which support slavery, and as such was used for the defense of slavery against abolitionists. Yeah, that's what I figured before actually inserting "Slavery" for "Sexual lifestyle" or whatever the original term was lol :yes:... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenspandan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I mean what next, NAMBLA members start fighting for their rights as well, as long as the child say yes . I mean come on people deviant, immoral behavior is always that. No matter how QUEER EYE for the gay guy, or other BS shows try to shove that crap down peoples throats especially kids of today. it makes me so happy that this form of hatred and bigotry is on such a steep decline, at least as far as being socially acceptable goes. i take comfort in the fact that your children or grandchildren will likely be ashamed of your beliefs on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 it makes me so happy that this form of hatred and bigotry is on such a steep decline, at least as far as being socially acceptable goes. i take comfort in the fact that your children or grandchildren will likely be ashamed of your beliefs on this matter. I'm surprised how slow it's been. That video from Tom Robinson Band was the late 70s ... over 30 years ago. It's got better but there's no shortage of bigots in current generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVAbrendan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Yeah, that's what I figured before actually inserting "Slavery" for "Sexual lifestyle" or whatever the original term was lol :yes:... Yep - that's what I meant. Sometimes, I have not way with words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconTheVillain Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Do those who feel being gay is becoming more and more common as maybe a way of mother nature controlling the overpopulation problem facing the earth? I know it sounds like a stretch but who knows maybe that is what is going on. I've often thought about this. Or to the religious people it can be God's way of population control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 People are literally born with genetic predispositions to all sorts of things. Should all of them be celebrated? As long as they do not cause any harm, then definitely they should be :yes:... What about bisexual men, should they be discriminated against for engaging in homosexual behavior as they most certainly are CHOOSING between genders. Should ANYONE who is born attracted to their same gender be discriminated against? That they were born attracted to the opposite sex as well is irrelevant. People aren't born as theist or atheists so should they be discriminated for their religious affiliation? ?? Not sure what your point is here. If homosexuality is instilled at birth should we screens unborn children for the markers when science is able to do so? What about treatments? Why and why not? 1) I see no problem with doing so. Having the info can help parents better prepare their children for their lives and the different aspects of our world they will be coming in contact with. 2) "Treatments" alludes to something being "wrong"...we can detect without making moral judgements. 3) Why and why not? Because having knowledge does not validate the infinite ways in which that knowledge is used to make decisions. If you believe in God, then I would imagine you'd have a problem with going in and "changing" something that you believe to ultimately have been determined by God. If you do not believe in God, I would imagine using genetic engineering to create a "perfect" race by eliminating arbitrary traits we find negative from human existence would have us going down a similar path as Hitler and the nazis. I find the born this way argument weak and temporary. Science will eventually be able to shape humans more so than they can today. What then? Hardly weak, as our fundamental right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is founded in the belief that we were born with these innate rights as established by God. Funny how we will fight for something we feel God instilled in us from conception but downplay that same argument when it deals with something we personally disagree with. As for science giving us the ability to "shape" humans, that will raise a ****load of other ethics and moral questions that are far greater than "should we see if our child is gay?"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenspandan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 on the subject of homosexuality beign a choice, i've always considered that aspect of the argument a huge red herring. i don't claim to know whether homosexuality is a function of environment or if it is ingrained from birth or some combination of the two (either way, it doesn't seem "choosable"). but regardless of that, i would rather we collectively got to a point where it simply isn't relevant. luckily, we're moving in that direction. once we can admit that falling in love with (or being attracted to) a person is not a terrible abomination simply because they are the same sex, then we can stop worrying about what caused two people of the same sex to be attracted to each other. i mean nobody goes around agonizing over what causes two people of different races to be attracted to each other (well, nobody sane, anyway). another reason "born this way" is a bit of a red herring: we currently have the technology to control what sex a baby turns out to be. there's no reason to think future tech will allow us to control other factors like hair color, intelligence, height, or any other arbitrary attribute. what if we can eventually control sexual preference? suddenly homophobes would take that as validation that this "abberation" can be "corrected". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 People are literally born with genetic predispositions to all sorts of things. Should all of them be celebrated? What about bisexual men, should they be discriminated against for engaging in homosexual behavior as they most certainly are CHOOSING between genders. People aren't born as theist or atheists so should they be discriminated for their religious affiliation? If homosexuality is instilled at birth should we screen unborn children for the markers when science is able to do so? What about treatments? Why and why not? I find the born this way argument weak and temporary. Science will eventually be able to shape humans more so than they can today. What then? Does a bisexual choosing between genders render his sexual attraction a choice as well? Or was that person born with attractions to both sexes, and their choice of which sex to be with is based solely on attraction they were born with? I can't imagine someone choosing something without their being an actual attraction there to back it up, unless they are choosing to hide or try to change that attraction. I'm not saying there aren't cases of choice, perhaps there are, but the majority does seem to be born that way, or at least claim so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 on the subject of homosexuality beign a choice, i've always considered that aspect of the argument a huge red herring. i don't claim to know whether homosexuality is a function of environment or if it is ingrained from birth or some combination of the two (either way, it doesn't seem "choosable").but regardless of that, i would rather we collectively got to a point where it simply isn't relevant. luckily, we're moving in that direction. once we can admit that falling in love with (or being attracted to) a person is not a terrible abomination simply because they are the same sex, then we can stop worrying about what caused two people of the same sex to be attracted to each other. i mean nobody goes around agonizing over what causes two people of different races to be attracted to each other (well, nobody sane, anyway). I agree, but in the present I think it would help incredibly if it were somehow shown that homosexuality is as much a part of your DNA as heterosexuality, your skin color, your eye color, your being left or right handed, how tall you end up, how short you end up, etc, etc... ---------- Post added June-20th-2011 at 12:28 PM ---------- Does a bisexual choosing between genders render his sexual attraction a choice as well? Or was that person born with attractions to both sexes, and their choice of which sex to be with is based solely on attraction they were born with? I see it the same as someone born ambidextrous...can write perfectly with either hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 on the subject of homosexuality beign a choice, i've always considered that aspect of the argument a huge red herring. i don't claim to know whether homosexuality is a function of environment or if it is ingrained from birth or some combination of the two (either way, it doesn't seem "choosable").but regardless of that, i would rather we collectively got to a point where it simply isn't relevant. luckily, we're moving in that direction. once we can admit that falling in love with (or being attracted to) a person is not a terrible abomination simply because they are the same sex, then we can stop worrying about what caused two people of the same sex to be attracted to each other. i mean nobody goes around agonizing over what causes two people of different races to be attracted to each other (well, nobody sane, anyway). another reason "born this way" is a bit of a red herring: we currently have the technology to control what sex a baby turns out to be. there's no reason to think future tech will allow us to control other factors like hair color, intelligence, height, or any other arbitrary attribute. what if we can eventually control sexual preference? suddenly homophobes would take that as validation that this "abberation" can be "corrected". And in response to homophobes, anyone can simply state that the treatments prove homosexuality is no more an abberation than different hair or eye color, gender, or height. If it can be "fixed" at a genetic level, then wouldn't that mean homosexuality is indeed instilled from birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenspandan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 And in response to homophobes, anyone can simply state that the treatments prove homosexuality is no more an abberation than different hair or eye color, gender, or height. If it can be "fixed" at a genetic level, then wouldn't that mean homosexuality is indeed instilled from birth. and what if Alzheimers or Sociopathic tendencies also turn out ot have strong genetic links? would you argue against correcting them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 and what if Alzheimers or Sociopathic tendencies also turn out ot have strong genetic links? would you argue against correcting them? they are detrimental to ones health, homosexuality is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 another reason "born this way" is a bit of a red herring: we currently have the technology to control what sex a baby turns out to be. there's no reason to think future tech will allow us to control other factors like hair color, intelligence, height, or any other arbitrary attribute. what if we can eventually control sexual preference? suddenly homophobes would take that as validation that this "abberation" can be "corrected". don't agree here..I think anyone who makes the movement of wanting things like being gay "corrected" at the DNA level will come off as the new nazis wanting a perfect master race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 don't agree here..I think anyone who makes the movement of wanting things like being gay "corrected" at the DNA level will come off as the new nazis wanting a perfect master race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 don't agree here..I think anyone who makes the movement of wanting things like being gay "corrected" at the DNA level will come off as the new nazis wanting a perfect master race. I was actually considering mentioning that in my response to Destino's Gattaca-esque musing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (Gattica poster here) Good movie :thumbsup: I was actually considering mentioning that in my response to Destino's Gattaca-esque musing. There was a Star Trek: Next Generation episode that dealt with the idea of creating a "perfect" society by manipulating stuff at the DNA level during pregnancy or right after birth, something like that...it was pretty cool how they showed that chasing that "perfect race" thing was a fool's errand, never possible to be achieved...and how the "abnormalities" we think need to be erased can end up leading to unforeseen negative results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Good movie :thumbsup:There was a Star Trek: Next Generation episode that dealt with the idea of creating a "perfect" society by manipulating stuff at the DNA level during pregnancy or right after birth, something like that...it was pretty cool how they showed that chasing that "perfect race" thing was a fool's errand, never possible to be achieved...and how the "abnormalities" we think need to be erased can end up leading to unforeseen negative results. If only Hitler had seen that episode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenspandan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 they are detrimental to ones health, homosexuality is not. are you kidding? gay-haters would argue a dozen different ways about how being gay was a threat to your physical, mental, and spiritual health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 There was a Star Trek: Next Generation episode that dealt with the idea of creating a "perfect" society by manipulating stuff at the DNA level during pregnancy or right after birth, something like that...it was pretty cool how they showed that chasing that "perfect race" thing was a fool's errand, never possible to be achieved...and how the "abnormalities" we think need to be erased can end up leading to unforeseen negative results. There was also the episode where Geordi was marooned on a planet with a Romulan and they discuss how Geordi would have been terminated for his blindness had he been a Romulan, but the technology developed to make him see is what wound up saving them :geek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Muslims - reward in heaven, 72 virgins, kill the infidels who don't convertChristians - accept Jesus in your life, go to heaven, those who don't accept Jesus, God will judge them That seems comparable to you? So, why do you spend so much time judging them yourself? Seriously, if half you fairy tale believers even understood what it is you supposedly believed, it would be a miracle. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenspandan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 There was a Star Trek: Next Generation episode that dealt with the idea of creating a "perfect" society by manipulating stuff at the DNA level during pregnancy or right after birth, something like that...it was pretty cool how they showed that chasing that "perfect race" thing was a fool's errand, never possible to be achieved...and how the "abnormalities" we think need to be erased can end up leading to unforeseen negative results. there was another episode about a race of beings who had evolved beyond race, and any physical expression of the masculine or feminine in their race was considered a disgusting abberation, and therefore corrected with (unspecified) treatment. one member turns out to be secretly female, falls in love with (guess who) riker, and once the authorities find out, they use their advanced science to "correct" her. at the end, she comes out, now perfectly gender-neutral, and speaks about how much happier she is now, and how ashamed she was of her former self and those "incorrect" urges she once felt. the whole thing is a very effective skewering of homophobia and the urge to "correct" gays, and what makes it great is it basically puts straight people (who identify in the episode with riker and his lover) in the position of being told that they are the abberation, and how horrifying it is to have your base urges "corrected" in such a manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 are you kidding? gay-haters would argue a dozen different ways about how being gay was a threat to your physical, mental, and spiritual health. that doesn't mean they are correct. are you trying to suggest that those gay-haters are correct or even have a valid basis for such an argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Kinda hard to when I see it on TV, and everywhere I go, heck my neighbour is gay and I don't talk with that guy and his boyfriend at all......,,going on 4 years now. Immoral behavior !!! It's not hard. You change the channel. Simple enough. I don't mind gay people, but I don't watch their TV shows or their network. Know why? Because i can choose to think about something else, and do. You see people outside, you ignore them like you do everyone else. Do you worry about everyone you pass by in the store and what their sex life is? Your neighbor might be a decent person, but because you can't stop thinking about what he does to make him immoral in your eye, you can't handle it. If you didn't KNOW he was gay, you'd never think about what he does, and it would never bother you. That's pathetic. Just deal with him as a person and forget about his junk. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 There was also the episode where Geordi was marooned on a planet with a Romulan and they discuss how Geordi would have been terminated for his blindness had he been a Romulan, but the technology developed to make him see is what wound up saving them :geek: That's the episode lol :yes:...that technology would have never been needed if Geordi has been terminated, and as a result they all would have died ... It's impossible to eliminate risks or negative results from Life, better to prepare yourself and your children how to deal with those instances instead. There's a reason we find those stories of people overcoming a supposedly insurmountable obstacle and making out the other end a better person so fulfilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 As long as they do not cause any harm, then definitely they should be :yes:... What if is negatively affects the person who has it but causes no harm to others? Should ANYONE who is born attracted to their same gender be discriminated against? That they were born attracted to the opposite sex as well is irrelevant. The only situation in which we are certain homosexual behavior is a choice is amongst the bisexual population. If "born this way" is the reason they shouldn't be discriminated against then bisexuals that choose to behave as gay men should be freely discriminated against by the ridiculous logic of the birth argument. Failing that, a straight person that "experiments" should be discriminated against right? Hey according to you " ANYONE who is born attracted to their same gender" shouldn't be discriminated against. So straights experimenting can be. Oh the wonders of the birth argument. ?? Not sure what your point is here.That choices carry discrimination as an option but conditions at birth do not. I find that argument to be ridiculous in the context of this debate.2) "Treatments" alludes to something being "wrong"...we can detect without making moral judgements.Parents wanting to increase the odds of biological grand kids is a moral judgement? What about parents in a part of the world where homosexuals are killed... are they passing judgement too? Your thinking is far too simple minded here. We are talking about human life you should know real life situations are hardly ever as black and white as you're trying to make them.3) Why and why not? Because having knowledge does not validate the infinite ways in which that knowledge is used to make decisions. If you believe in God, then I would imagine you'd have a problem with going in and "changing" something that you believe to ultimately have been determined by God. If you do not believe in God, I would imagine using genetic engineering to create a "perfect" race by eliminating arbitrary traits we find negative from human existence would have us going down a similar path as Hitler and the nazis. People are already using science to determine if they are having a boy or a girl. Really think they wouldn't choose gay or straight? You know better. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/13/60II/main611618.shtml Hardly weak, as our fundamental right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is founded in the belief that we were born with these innate rights as established by God. Funny how we will fight for something we feel God instilled in us from conception but downplay that same argument when it deals with something we personally disagree with.You can be born incredibly short too. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being short and parents put their kids through hormone treatments. That's the real world. As for science giving us the ability to "shape" humans, that will raise a ****load of other ethics and moral questions that are far greater than "should we see if our child is gay?"...You're right it will. I'll bet the house however that if it improves the quality of life of those yet to be born, society will embrace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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