elkabong82 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I didn't realize reproduction was the only way to contribute to mankind. Guess we better not let straight people incapable of reproduction get married either. And I guess lesbians can't get a donor, nor can gay men get a surrogate, nor can either adopt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I am married and do not plan on having children of my own. I am a deviant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Living the Good Lie. Should Therapists Help God-Fearing Gay People Stay in the Closet? by Mimi Swartz I just got my paper copy of this week's New York Times magazine with this article. A second article in there poses an interesting question and is worth the read. How do evangelical Christians who are attracted to the same sex resolve the seemingly intractable conflict between their deeply seated religious beliefs and the acknowledgement that they have homosexual yearnings? A small but growing number of therapists are helping them cope with their homosexuality without having to choose one or the other. And choosing has been the option for a number of years - either leave your religion,go through psychologically torturous (and ultimately futile) "therapy" to change your orientation, or suppress. Some therapists - including one who considers himself a "militant homosexual" - acknowledge that the religious beliefs of their clients are as important and fundamental to their being as their sexual orientation - and often more so. So they work with patients to craft a self-identity they can live with. Some accept a compromise in their lives, and stay in the closet. They enter into or continue traditional marriage while acknowledging to their partners their homosexual feelings. They accept a middling position that allows them to stay with their religion while acknowledging their homosexual feelings but work hard not to act on those feelings. The article talks about self sexual identity vs. sexual orientation. Interesting read: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/19/magazine/therapists-who-help-people-stay-in-the-closet.html?_r=1&ref=magazine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 suppressing ones sexual desires, life-long celibacy, has worked wonders for the Catholic priests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 suppressing ones sexual desires, life-long celibacy, has worked wonders for the Catholic priests It has for many priests over the centuries. For a subset, it hasn't. The therapy described in the article doesn't demand suppression. It helps the patients walk a fine line of compromise, mainly so that they can live with themselves without going stark raving mad over the competing influences of their deeply seated religious beliefs and their sexual desires. I don't envy the struggle they face, and the article presents an empathetic view of what they face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I am married and do not plan on having children of my own. I am a deviant. You sir, are going straight to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It has for many priests over the centuries. For a subset, it hasn't. The therapy described in the article doesn't demand suppression. It helps the patients walk a fine line of compromise, mainly so that they can live with themselves without going stark raving mad over the competing influences of their deeply seated religious beliefs and their sexual desires. I don't envy the struggle they face, and the article presents an empathetic view of what they face. I didn't mean in general, sorry if it came off that way. What I meant was that there are potential, harmful side effects, or results, to suppression, such as molestation or suicide (as has happened in some camps). Seems an unnecessary risk to me when mankind has been socially adapting Christianity throughout history, and one could IMO still maintain their faith without accepting every single passage in the Bible. We as a country have no problems divorcing (over 50%), we have no problem disregarding the pro-slavery passages as outdated, for example. However, my perspective is from a different set of beliefs, which don't always coincide with Christian beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I am married and do not plan on having children of my own. I am a deviant. Why ? That's an incredibly personal question' date=' LKB, but I am curious about the thinking that goes into that decision. (There's no value judgement one way or another in my asking. Also, "Mind your own ****ing business" would be an acceptable answer.) ---------- Post added June-21st-2011 at 03:58 PM ---------- Seems an unnecessary risk to me when mankind has been socially adapting Christianity throughout history, and one could IMO still maintain their faith without accepting every single passage in the Bible. We as a country have no problems divorcing (over 50%), we have no problem disregarding the pro-slavery passages as outdated, for example. However, my perspective is from a different set of beliefs, which don't always coincide with Christian beliefs. I agree with you that evolving social mores aren't necessarily a bad thing. But the article deals with people dealing with the here and now. And the here and now for these people is that if they come out, those closest to them other than their family - their church community - turn their backs on them because of deeply held religious beliefs. (And often family too, as illustrated by kilerbee in this very thread.) So therapists are recognizing that it might be better psychologically for them to construct personal compromises rather than to abandon deeply held beliefs and the resulting loss of a lifetime social support system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 suppressing ones sexual desires, life-long celibacy, has worked wonders for the Catholic priests Heck I do that and I'm MARRIED!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Why ? That's an incredibly personal question, LKB, but I am curious about the thinking that goes into that decision. (There's no value judgement one way or another in my asking. Also, "Mind your own ****ing business" would be an acceptable answer.)---------- Post added June-21st-2011 at 03:58 PM ---------- I agree with you that evolving social mores aren't necessarily a bad thing. But the article deals with people dealing with the here and now. And the here and now for these people is that if they come out, those closest to them other than their family - their church community - turn their backs on them because of deeply held religious beliefs. (And often family too, as illustrated by kilerbee in this very thread.) So therapists are recognizing that it might be better psychologically for them to construct personal compromises rather than to abandon deeply held beliefs and the resulting loss of a lifetime social support system. I disagree with that notion, I think the person is ultimately better off without a support system that no longer supports them, and there is much qualitative evidence from the gay community to atest to that. On the other spectrum, suppression, such as "pray the gay away" camps and other like-minded campaigns, has led to suicide. Heck, there was an article in the tailgate maybe a week ago about a man who killed himself because his parents put him through "therapy" to "fix" possible homosexuality and it led him to be a disturbed adult and he killed himself. Perhaps it would be different for those willing to go through it, but acceptance typically seems better, JMO. ---------- Post added June-21st-2011 at 04:30 PM ---------- Heck I do that and I'm MARRIED!!! lol, nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 d3K6IMj01Xs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportjunkie07 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 That's all well and good for you to follow. But you cannot tell me how to live my life. I don't tell you how to live yours. im not and i wont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Yawn. Yeah some claimed to be Christian conservatives in an effort to attain power. Gasp!! a politician lied. The current GOP admin in the House has a Zero Tolerance policy towards conduct unbecoming a congressional member something similar to what I was used to seeing among Officers in the military before the social engineering era. You conveniently ignored the male prostitution ring involving Barney Frank and his boyfriend that the left downplayed. Newt is no longer in office, Ensign was forced out. Just like Gays in the Priesthood or the military, do not blame the institution and their supporters for those who lie about their sexual and moral shortcomings to join it. If you think the current folks will somehow be a more Christian group you are flat out wrong. Greed and selfishness is treated like a virtue by both sides wether it be the right to end life for personal convience or make as much money as you can and let others fall. Here is the thing with the left I do not see them on their soap boxes preaching moral superiority the right acts self riughteous all the time. I look around me and I can not help be reminded of what Jesus saw when he walked the Earth, the religous and political leaders of the people were ready to condemn the lowly sinners while allowing them to fleeced and ignored greed and injustice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I disagree with that notion, I think the person is ultimately better off without a support system that no longer supports them, and there is much qualitative evidence from the gay community to atest to that. On the other spectrum, suppression, such as "pray the gay away" camps and other like-minded campaigns, has led to suicide. Heck, there was an article in the tailgate maybe a week ago about a man who killed himself because his parents put him through "therapy" to "fix" possible homosexuality and it led him to be a disturbed adult and he killed himself. Perhaps it would be different for those willing to go through it, but acceptance typically seems better, JMO. The therapy practiced in this article is NOT conversion therapy. In fact the therapists quoted in the article abhor the notion that therapy can "fix" homosexuality, because they've seen the train-wreck results first-hand. It has more to do with helping the patients develop a self identity they can live with, by reflecting on what is most important to who they are. I don't know if this type of therapy is the right course, but it seems to have given some fundamentalist Christians with homosexual leanings some piece of mind. I just found the premise of the article interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Here is the thing with the left I do not see them on their soap boxes preaching moral superiority the right acts self riughteous all the time. They know better than to tell a bald face lie. They do preach educational superiority even though the GOP goes to the same Ivy League schools. Their moral superiority stems from the there is no God, government is here to solve all of your problems be a good little cow and stay with the herd mindset. And besides they are usually too busy telling everyone they know what is best for them and has the Taxes, mandates or judicial activism to make it happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headexplode Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Their moral superiority stems from the there is no God, government is here to solve all of your problems be a good little cow and stay with the herd mindset. Replace "no" with "a" and "government" with "Jesus" and you would be describing a sizeable portion of the Christian population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Truth be told,I agree with a few here in this thread. These type of threads are entirely too predictable. However that said,I would be curious as to how often the kind of thing described in the op does happen these days. Not that it matters to me really. It's not up to me to judge. Just treat people as people and go from there. Too many contradicting studies and logic,(as some call it),about homosexuality out there so I just err on the side of treating someone for the person they are,(or may be). If someone is gay,big ****ing deal. People can be stupid,immoral, and *******s no matter what race,gender,religion,(or lack thereof),sexual orientation,tax bracket or whatever. They can also be good,decent people no matter what one of those previous categories they belong too. Oh. And I'm an episcopalian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 They know better than to tell a bald face lie. They do preach educational superiority even though the GOP goes to the same Ivy League schools. Their moral superiority stems from the there is no God, government is here to solve all of your problems be a good little cow and stay with the herd mindset. And besides they are usually too busy telling everyone they know what is best for them and has the Taxes, mandates or judicial activism to make it happen And the political Right preaches moral superiority in God even though they ignore 99% of the morality of God. Oh sure they get homosexuality and abortion, and then they think that they are moral as if those two things define Christian morality...:doh: Meanwhile the ignore the poor and they dishonor the elderly, they give preference to the rich, and they ignore calls to be responsible with the environment. I am not saying the Dems get it right, but at least the Dems don't pretend to, in that way they avoid the hypocrisy of the political Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#98QBKiller Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Truth be told,I agree with a few here in this thread. These type of threads are entirely too predictable. However that said,I would be curious as to how often the kind of thing described in the op does happen these days. Not that it matters to me really. It's not up to me to judge. Just treat people as people and go from there. Too many contradicting studies and logic,(as some call it),about homosexuality out there so I just err on the side of treating someone for the person they are,(or may be). If someone is gay,big ****ing deal. People can be stupid,immoral, and *******s no matter what race,gender,religion,(or lack thereof),sexual orientation,tax bracket or whatever. They can also be good,decent people no matter what one of those previous categories they belong too. Oh. And I'm an episcopalian. Excuse me sir, logic is not allowed in this thread. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Oh. And I'm an episcopalian. Oh well that explains a lot! Frickin' Episcopalians!! And no I don't have Episcophobia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Oh well that explains a lot! Frickin' Episcopalians!! And no I don't have Episcophobia! Yeah right. I'm sure you have "friends" who are episcopalians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 They know better than to tell a bald face lie. They do preach educational superiority even though the GOP goes to the same Ivy League schools. Their moral superiority stems from the there is no God, government is here to solve all of your problems be a good little cow and stay with the herd mindset. And besides they are usually too busy telling everyone they know what is best for them and has the Taxes, mandates or judicial activism to make it happen And if the right really believed that government was not the answer they would quit running and quit voting in politiicians saying they will solve this or that. And the right does not behave like the left when comes to the same things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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