2011 CONCACAF Gold Cup Thread

[skinsngibbs4life]

Tell me' date=' do you believe that the product we have out on the field is the best that we can come up with as a country of over 300 million people?[/quote']

I HATE this argument.

No, with the talent we have, we should be producing something better.

With that said, however, soccer has only been really relevant in this country for 20 years or so. We are just now beginning to establish high class youth systems. Our professional league is growing, and just in the past couple years started building youth teams and academys. You act like the US should be producing a world power over night. This process takes time, and you can already see the benefits by the amount of players we have playing in established european leagues, and how many youth teams are excelling at higher levels. If you haven't, watch some of the U-17 world cup and watch what are youth teams are capable of. We have talented players coming through ranks that will produce, but this all takes time.

---------- Post added June-19th-2011 at 10:10 PM ----------

The MLS has made some great progress in their youth academies and is just now starting to reap the benefits with players coming out of the academies to start in the league (including Agudelo). But this transition did not and will not happen over night. Positive things are happening though.

Exactly what I was trying to get at. And regardless of the progess that this nation has made in soccer, we will always be held back by the fact that we are barely a top 5 priority in the sports world in this country. Sports like football, basketball, baseball and hockey will always take priority in this country compared to soccer. Compare this to the likes of Brazil, Spain, Argentica, Germany, ect. where they live for the sport, and you can understand why a country with such a high population isn't consistently producing a contending club. Despite all of this, we still have players that are beginning to play at top levels and produce.

Be patient and give it time. We have good youth talent coming up in the wings, and this team will continue to improve. No reason to continue to freak out over one horrible loss.

[Elessar78]

I expect to dominate inferior opponents. I expect to see players moving off the ball during all phases of the game. Not just when we are down 1 or 2 to nothing with the first 20 minutes of a game. I expect to see a strategy that isnt an archaic kick and run to it approach that we are so accustomed to watching. The problem isnt necessarily about talent. Are you telling me that teams like Jamaica' date=' Panama, Guateloupe, or Honduras have talent that is just as good as ours? Thats preposterous. We have talent on our team, we just do not have any strategy, nor do we put them in the right position to be consistently good. (ex. see Clint Dempsey @ Fulham or Donovan @ Everton vs. National team).[/quote']

Why do national team level players have to be told to pass and move, control a difficult ball with ease, or not boot it up the field? Is that strategy? You think Bradley hasn't paid any attention to soccer for the past 40 years?

It's so facile to say that there's some magic strategy out there. If some fan on the couch at home can figure out this strategy, then surely someone immersed in it can figure it out right?

Soccer at the highest level, the margin between winning and losing is razor thin. Take the reigning World Champion, Spain, I think most of their World Cup games were a 1 goal margin of victory. They don't quibble about the score lines. They are soo good, with great strategy and the best players in nearly every position and could only muster 1-0 score lines.

With the razor thin edge, if you make a mistake in the technical skill department. Miscontrolling a ball, playing too slowly, making a bad pass, missing a sitter in front of goal, etc. the enemy will make you pay for it. That's what you need to see about American players. The cumulative effect of many little errors in skill adds up and you lose.

Dempsey and Donovan are surrounded by real deal pros at those clubs. To compare them with the hacks that are on the USMNT is apples to oranges. We have world class talent in 3 spots.

[Skin'emAlive]

I HATE this argument.

No, with the talent we have, we should be producing something better.

With that said, however, soccer has only been really relevant in this country for 20 years or so. We are just now beginning to establish high class youth systems. Our professional league is growing, and just in the past couple years started building youth teams and academys. You act like the US should be producing a world power over night. This process takes time, and you can already see the benefits by the amount of players we have playing in established european leagues, and how many youth teams are excelling at higher levels. If you haven't, watch some of the U-17 world cup and watch what are youth teams are capable of. We have talented players coming through ranks that will produce, but this all takes time.

Be patient and give it time. We have good youth talent coming up in the wings, and this team will continue to improve. No reason to continue to freak out over one horrible loss.

Do you know that our previous U-17 teams were very good as well. How many players from those teams actually get a shot to play for the national team? The answer is very very few. Just because the U-17 team is good doesnt mean they will be chosen to play for the national team. Bob Bradley would have to actually play them. We have had young promising players that played well together on the U-17 team come in ( like Wynne, Orozco, Adu, Torres, Altidore, etc. ) and get almost zero playing time (Altidore being the exception). Meanwhile players like Sacha, Bornestein, Clark, Conner, etc. become multi-year failures. I think the system is getting better, and look no further than the success of the younger national teams. But we still have a lame duck coach. How is it that Maurice Edu, who is starting for the Rangers and is producing is being benched in favor of Bradley/Sacha who are both riding the pine? Edu and Jones would be a great pair in the middle of the field, but we all know that will NEVER happen. We have tried every other combination in the middle of the field without changing one common denominator... Bradley. IMO he is the prototypical "super sub". Hes the guy that outworks everyone but doesnt have the necessary skillset to become great.

In fact look at the success of Mexico right now. They had the talent on their team the whole time, but had a horrible manager for years. Now they have finally found one ( and they put in substantial effort to find one) and we are now seeing the benefits of it.

Im not freaking out over " one horrible loss". I have been advocating for Bradley's removal for 4 years now. I had hoped that his obvious ineptness at managing this team would have cost him his job by now. But that is just not the case. Its going to take a christmas miracle for him to disappear.

---------- Post added June-19th-2011 at 10:50 PM ----------

Why do national team level players have to be told to pass and move, control a difficult ball with ease, or not boot it up the field? Is that strategy? You think Bradley hasn't paid any attention to soccer for the past 40 years?

It's so facile to say that there's some magic strategy out there. If some fan on the couch at home can figure out this strategy, then surely someone immersed in it can figure it out right?

Soccer at the highest level, the margin between winning and losing is razor thin. Take the reigning World Champion, Spain, I think most of their World Cup games were a 1 goal margin of victory. They don't quibble about the score lines. They are soo good, with great strategy and the best players in nearly every position and could only muster 1-0 score lines.

Umm.. anyone who has watched at least a handful of games could tell you that starting Ricardo Clark during the cup was a bad idea. It does not take some magic strategy to know that not only should Demarcus Beasley not start for the national team anymore, he should NEVER have been an option at left back let alone his normal left mid spot. It doesnt take a genius to see that Connor Casey did not have the speed to compete at an international level. Soccer is a simple game. We have the talent to be better than we are now.

Spain won by controlling the ball almost the entire game. Teams could only hope that a counter attack wold work. Once Spain went up 1-0, the opposing team never touched the ball again. They are that good. 1-0 is not a true indication of how those games were played.

[Elessar78]

But you still didn't answer the question of how far you expect the USMNT to go in the World Cup?

Who cares how we do in Gold Cup? These should all just be treated as warm ups, to see who can do what and not as an end all be all test for Bradley.

If we qualify for 2014 that's one check. Advance to the knockout round of the WC, another check. I think we have a legit right to be in the quarters. Anything beyond is gravy because our talent is just not that good.

Do you really think we are a World Cup semi finalist or finalist? With good fortune, sure. But on merit, I don't think so.

[Skin'emAlive]

I could care less about the Gold cup. It should be treated as a warmup, you are correct. But I still see the same mistakes, inconsistencies, and poor player selections that have plagued this team for 4+ years under Bradley. Right now we were LUCKY to even have gotten as far as we did in the last cup. I didnt expect us to even make it out of the first round under Bradley in the last cup, even though we had a very fortunate draw. I know they wont make it there in the next cup if he is still managing the team. We should be giving someone else a shot right now. There are many problems with Bob that i have already listed, but having players on the field with zero motivation is inexcusable. A breath of fresh air has been sorely needed for a long time.

[jobaga]

$5 mill is a drop in the bucket for operating costs for the Federation. No one is getting rich working for USSF. If they divided that equally amongst the 55 state associations (some states have 2) it'd be just around $91K.

For example, Braddock Road Youth Club soccer in Northern VA each family pays $2500/year. That's just tuition. No travel costs, uniform costs, etc. So that money won't really move the needle.

It's not really the kids without means who don't get to play are the problem. Also, it's a bit insulting to think that some poor immigrant kid (that's how I read into it) is going to be much better than a suburban white kid at soccer.

-----

.

These are two seperate points:

1. I was using the Spain game as an example. The US makes money on all their friendlies, TV contracts, sponsorships and tournaments. I agree that $2500 is too much to pay and think that anything the US Soccer Federation can do to make the game more accessible would be a step in the right direction. The question is: What do they do with the money? The coaches are not being paid a kings ransom. http://http://voices.washingtonpost.com/soccerinsider/2010/04/bob_bradleys_salary_and_ussf_f.html

2. I too find it insulting that would would think that poor imigrants should be getting all the breaks. I am a middle class father and I don't like the idea of spending $2500 for a travel team. I said we should increase access, that means everyone. If we can make soccer affordable for all families it will increase the player pool for US Soccer, I don't care what their color, race, religion, creed, socioeconomic status.

[skinsngibbs4life]

I could care less about the Gold cup. It should be treated as a warmup' date=' you are correct. But I still see the same mistakes, inconsistencies, and poor player selections that have plagued this team for 4+ years under Bradley. Right now we were LUCKY to even have gotten as far as we did in the last cup. I didnt expect us to even make it out of the first round under Bradley in the last cup, even though we had a very fortunate draw. I know they wont make it there in the next cup if he is still managing the team. We should be giving someone else a shot right now. There are many problems with Bob that i have already listed, but having players on the field with zero motivation is inexcusable. A breath of fresh air has been sorely needed for a long time.[/quote']

You keep talking about a "breath of fresh air", but who is that going to be? Sure, it would be great to get klinsman, but that is never going to happen with Sunil at the helm. So who else is there? I honestly don't think a foriegn coach would be hired... so once again we would have a coach who highest qualifications probably include coaching within the MLS. Do you really think they could do a better job?

Regardless, I see the US winning on Wednesday, and losing to Mexico in the finals. This will be just enough to solidify his job through the 2014 world cup. He isn't going anywhere any time soon.

[Skin'emAlive]

Skinsngibbs:

Honestly, i have no idea who that coach is going to be. Im not a good evaluator of coaching talent outside of what i witness alot. I would say Klinsman, but we both know that will never happen. So i have no clue. And yes, i see US winning Wednesday. Convincingly in fact. But that does not mean it is good for the team in the long run.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Has Klinsmann taking his badges yet?

There sure was a lot of controversy in Germany back in the mid-2000's when he didn't have a single qual. MOST unusual for the Germans who are real high on those things. To give someone the National job without any as a figure head caused quite a stir. And the common opinion in Germany is to attribute the semi run in '06 down to Joachim Law's tactical nounce. Klinsmann was more the big name figure head and inspirational figure. He's charismatic and influential still within the German ranks; and his enthusiasm is endearing. Guess it depends what you want out of a coach. His record at Munich certainly wasn't much to write home about.

I'd be more concerned with with who he surrounded himself with if you were to appoint Klinsmann. Given the right men around him, and his abbrasive enthusiasm, you could be onto something. If he didn't get the right guys to go to the States, then it could well be a different story.

Great players do not always make great coaches.

Hail.

[Skinz4Life12]

Honduras won? WOOT! Skinz is getting lucky tonight! .

Joking aside, congrats man to you guys. Good luck the semi.

Hail.

Haha that game was awesome! We had my g/f's family over to watch the game and when it went to PKs her grandma couldn't even watch. Everyone was ecstatic after the win and we passed out tequila shots in celebration. Even her 70 year old grandma took one haha

[Kilmer17]

An overall great game from the US.

I still question how Bob can sit Donovan over Sacha Klestjan. He had a good game in the middle 3rd of the field, but became the Department of Scoring Prevention every time he touched the ball in the final 3rd.

He's complete garbage.

Panama will be without Striker Blaz Perez who got a second yellow card in Panamas PK victory over El Salvador. The Sallies missed a PK early in the game and Panama "scored" in the final minute to tie it, and Im still not totally sure that the goal they were awarded was legit.

That's a much bigger loss for them then the US not having Altidore.

[renaissance]

An overall great game from the US.

I still question how Bob can sit Donovan over Sacha Klestjan. He had a good game in the middle 3rd of the field, but became the Department of Scoring Prevention every time he touched the ball in the final 3rd.

He's complete garbage.

Panama will be without Striker Blaz Perez who got a second yellow card in Panamas PK victory over El Salvador. The Sallies missed a PK early in the game and Panama "scored" in the final minute to tie it, and Im still not totally sure that the goal they were awarded was legit.

That's a much bigger loss for them then the US not having Altidore.

Um, Bradley sat Donovan because he didn't get back to DC until 7am on Sunday.

Edit: And Panama's goal was legit.

[Kilmer17]

Um, Bradley sat Donovan because he didn't get back to DC until 7am on Sunday.

Edit: And Panama's goal was legit.

After sleeping overnight in first class. He was awesome when he came in for the last 30 minutes.

A tired Donovan is still light years better than Klestjan. Further, we had other options available that are better than Sacha.

The goal? I havent seen a perfect side view. But the angled one certainly doesnt look like the complete ball crossed the line.

[Hooper]

We have dominated the last two games. If we could finish worth a damn, we would have scored at least six more goals the past week.

[renaissance]

After sleeping overnight in first class. He was awesome when he came in for the last 30 minutes.

A tired Donovan is still light years better than Klestjan. Further, we had other options available that are better than Sacha.

The goal? I havent seen a perfect side view. But the angled one certainly doesnt look like the complete ball crossed the line.

I didn't say that Sacha was the best choice.

And Univision showed a couple angles during the game (including one where they "removed" the goal from the picture) which shows the ball pretty clearly over the line.

[Elessar78]

Landon is a known commodity. Bradley knows what he can get out of him. Maybe he won't even be available in 2014.

[gbear]

I'm curious. How many on this board have any experience with US national soccer team experience at any level?

I hear all the complaints about soccer at the lower levels, and it's true, we don't do what other countries do. Soccer is a leasure pass time in this country. It's not seen as a get away from current life here. It is a part of our players' life. When one looks at football, there are communities for whom American football is a way to success. I think of American Samoa with 18 players in the NFL 2 years ago and perpetual college scholarship opportunities. It's a population of 60k. Football is a way to succeed whether it is a ticket to college to study or to go pro.

Soccer? Not so much. I was on an under 14 (or 15 can't remember but it was my freshman year of highschool) MD state Olympic development team. I bristled at having my food controled in terms of what, when and how much. I never had the attitude to make me want to come back out the next year. Even so, I was far from alone in thinking it was crazier than I wanted, and parents...well lets just say there was some discord in the ranks. Thing is, in other countries parents would be fighting tooth and nail to try an get their kids on these teams. Sure, there were a few on my team, but most were kids having fun just playing with talent a bit better than what they had on their select team. From these state teams, regonal teams were picked and the U.S. team came from those. Those playing on the National team, even at that age, have a rare level of commitment for our society, and it seemed to be every much about the desire as the skill.

MLS has come a long way. When it started, they were recruiting from teh Washington International Soccer League. Many/most of the best players refused because the starting salary "if you make the team" was $30k. Keep in mind, if I stayed at my job waiting tables I would have made aroudn $28k. It's hard to recruit at those prices. Yes, it has gotten better, and they do get some names to draw crouds. The level of play has improved tremendously, but it's still nowhere near good by international standards. We talk about Soccer as teh most played sport in the U.S., but how much of the popularity is the little bit required be put into it?

[Popeman38]

Um, Bradley sat Donovan because he didn't get back to DC until 7am on Sunday.

Edit: And Panama's goal was legit.

Eehhhh, it is not 100% clear that 100% of the ball cleared the line. But realistically, you get 2 PKs you should advance. Bury your PKs and you don't need to go to PKs to settle it. I can see El Salvador and her fans feeling like they got robbed, but make your PKs and Panama doesn't even muster that chance. Down 2-0 in the last minute, there isn't that push from Panama

[Kilmer17]

\

great job by Univision to get this. It was the correct call, but I'll be dammed if I can figure out how the linesman saw it through the woodwork and netting.

[renaissance]

MLS has come a long way. When it started, they were recruiting from teh Washington International Soccer League. Many/most of the best players refused because the starting salary "if you make the team" was $30k. Keep in mind, if I stayed at my job waiting tables I would have made aroudn $28k. It's hard to recruit at those prices. Yes, it has gotten better, and they do get some names to draw crouds. The level of play has improved tremendously, but it's still nowhere near good by international standards. We talk about Soccer as teh most played sport in the U.S., but how much of the popularity is the little bit required be put into it?

I can't believe you just compared playing pro soccer to waiting tables in terms of professional choices. The lowest amount any current player makes is like $32,000 which is certainly not much in the world of professional sports, but compare $32,000 to play soccer when you are 17-22 years old vs $35,000 to sit in front of a desk all day. Is someone really going to choose the desk job?? Especially considering the youngest players who haven't yet or have just recently graduated high school.

The only time your money argument comes in to play is if a multi-sport athlete is choosing between soccer and say basketball or football, or if the person is really talented in/passionate about some other professional area.

Now you are right, the argument 10 years ago was maybe a bit different because someone entering the MLS didn't necessarily see a future in the sport or the league, but now I don't think the waiting tables for $28k vs playing soccer for $30k question is really even a question as the league continues to grow. Your point is also kind of moot because the MLS isn't exactly picking up guys out of adult rec leagues to play now. They are recruiting guys at a much younger age where a $32,000 salary and the prospect of making much more as you get more experience/talent is very appealing. Andy Najar went from making the minumum $32k last year as a rookie out of the DCU academy, to making $125k this year. Not a bad deal if I do say so myself. Plus with the generation adidas contracts, that some of these young guys get if they haven't been to/finished college, if the young players' soccer careers fizzle out, they get a guaranteed college scholarship.

[Elessar78]

I'm curious. How many on this board have any experience with US national soccer team experience at any level?

I hear all the complaints about soccer at the lower levels, and it's true, we don't do what other countries do. Soccer is a leasure pass time in this country. It's not seen as a get away from current life here. It is a part of our players' life. When one looks at football, there are communities for whom American football is a way to success. I think of American Samoa with 18 players in the NFL 2 years ago and perpetual college scholarship opportunities. It's a population of 60k. Football is a way to succeed whether it is a ticket to college to study or to go pro.

Soccer? Not so much. I was on an under 14 (or 15 can't remember but it was my freshman year of highschool) MD state Olympic development team. I bristled at having my food controled in terms of what, when and how much. I never had the attitude to make me want to come back out the next year. Even so, I was far from alone in thinking it was crazier than I wanted, and parents...well lets just say there was some discord in the ranks. Thing is, in other countries parents would be fighting tooth and nail to try an get their kids on these teams. Sure, there were a few on my team, but most were kids having fun just playing with talent a bit better than what they had on their select team. From these state teams, regonal teams were picked and the U.S. team came from those. Those playing on the National team, even at that age, have a rare level of commitment for our society, and it seemed to be every much about the desire as the skill.

MLS has come a long way. When it started, they were recruiting from teh Washington International Soccer League. Many/most of the best players refused because the starting salary "if you make the team" was $30k. Keep in mind, if I stayed at my job waiting tables I would have made aroudn $28k. It's hard to recruit at those prices. Yes, it has gotten better, and they do get some names to draw crouds. The level of play has improved tremendously, but it's still nowhere near good by international standards. We talk about Soccer as teh most played sport in the U.S., but how much of the popularity is the little bit required be put into it?

I don't know if soccer is an "escape" for most countries. There are many poor areas in Brazil but Brazil also happens to be an up and coming nation. Most of Europe is highly developed so players from those countries aren't much different than American kids.

To play college and pro football you need to be a certain size and/or speed. There are many exceptions of small(er) players that make it big, but that's what they are-exceptions.

In other countries, parents don't fight to get their kids onto any team. It's purely up to the club if you get taken on board or not. Parents don't have a say in the matter.

There's a broad feeling that ODP is big failure in terms of identification of talent and developing that talent. IMO, it depends on the state. MD, I believe, is one of the better ones. In other states the evaluators have conflicts of interest and selection is more political than on merit. Plus, there was a considerable out of pocket cost for the families.

The way the youth system is set up in this country, gives the "talented" players a false sense of how good they really are. Teams get stacked, certain teams win a lot of games but are all those kids good players? Or are the few really talented ones getting results? How much of the results are gained through athleticism vs actually playing good soccer?

It doesn't help that as teenagers, many of these top kids go to Europe to play in tournaments against professional youth teams and do actually well. Sometimes beating these pro youth teams. But it's in between the ages of 16 and 21 that the American players really lose ground. In truth they started to loose ground at 6 years old, but the differences can be masked. Between those ages American players play high school and college for parts of the year, with big parts of the year dedicated to things like conditioning that don't make one necessarily a better soccer player. Perhaps a super-conditioned athlete but not a soccer player. In contrast, the European kids are immersed in "advanced placement" soccer schools.

Ren mentioned that soccer is only starting to develop it's own system of bringing players in this country up, that the existing models don't work for soccer. Well, mostly true, except baseball has youth systems (farm systems). Kids willingly forego college to play minor league ball.

Pep Guardiola has a famous quote about Barca's youth system: "We don't demand that our youth teams win, we demand that they play good soccer." It's a fine distinction that the vast majority of youth teams in this country have not made.

[Kilmer17]

US v Panama at 7 tonight.

I'd love to believe that there is no possible way that the US could lose to Panama twice in a row in a major tournament.

But I have to remember who our coach is.

[ixcuincle]

http://twitter.com/edsbs/statuses/83657442143109121

RT @GrantWahl: USA lineup: Howard; Cherundolo, Goodson, Bocanegra, Lichaj; Bradley, Jones; Bedoya, Kljestan, Dempsey; Agudelo

[renaissance]

Anyone know why Donovan isn't starting?

[Skin'emAlive]

Anyone know why Donovan isn't starting?

Because that is the lineup we beat Jamaica with! That must be the winning combination!!!