db: Gibbs: America Will Not Take Sides in Egypt

[SnyderShrugged]

Put me down as yet another person who thinks that silencing all international journalists isn't a good sign.

sadly, this appears to be the safe bet right now.

[JMS]

I meant that you don't know that "What's going on now is whether democracy wins, or a new despot wins."

I don't think that is clear at all. Not one bit.

We don't know if the guys who want power today rather than wait for the next election are not going to be anti democratic?

---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 06:48 PM ----------

Which could happen or might not happen. No one should trust anything he says at this point.

And even if it does happen, most people didn't really expect him to run again at his age.

The part about his son is good news, if it proves to be true 7-8 months from now.

If it proves to be true? He's said it across the international airwaves. For a country almost entirely dependent upon international aid with what half it's population living on 2$ a day income. I'd say that's a pretty rock solid guarantee.

It would be different if he had the support of the military, or he had international backing. But he has neither.

No one trusts Mubarak or his cronies not to screw them over, or arrest, attack, or kill them in the time between now and then.

Mubarak has kept the peace for 30 years. He's a hell of a lot more trustworthy than the alternative who are already planning for a war with Israel. A war which Egypt can't win, and won't help anything.

I don't see how the protesters can stop with the way things are right now.

You think the protesters are not safe. What have you been watching on TV? Dude, the military generals didn't back Mubaric. Exactly who do you think is going to allow Mubaric to hunt down demonstrators at this point? If they accept his pledge to step down their safe as they can be. If they won't be. It's as simple as that.

I would think the same thing would happen in the US if 10,000 guys demonstrated on the mall for a repeal of the government without an election and wouldn't dispand.

I think it's kind of funny with everyone saying the protests need to stop when they aren't the ones causing most of this.

I think it's frightening how you want to turn over a country of 80 million people to the moslem brotherhood and watch the resulting religious ethnic wars spread across the middle east. I think it's frightenning how you dismiss their stated goals and even what they say today their intentions will be.

[Hubbs]

I think it's frightening how you want to turn over a country of 80 million people to the moslem brotherhood and watch the resulting religious ethnic wars spread across the middle east. I think it's frightenning how you dismiss their stated goals and even what they say today their intentions will be.

Did Glenn Beck take over JMS's account?

[GoSkins561]

Did Glenn Beck take over JMS's account?

I listened to Beck today(first time in 6 months) JMS and Beck are pretty much on the same page with this one.

[Predicto]

We don't know if the guys who want power today rather than wait for the next election are not going to be anti democratic?

No. They don't trust the people in power to actually provide free elections a year from now. They think they are going to get screwed over, and hunted down one by one by the secret police if they don't get rid of Mubarak and his cronies right now. I certainly understand why they feel this way.

If it proves to be true? He's said it across the international airwaves. For a country almost entirely dependent upon international aid with what half it's population living on 2$ a day income. I'd say that's a pretty rock solid guarantee.

A despot promising democratic change and then not actually following through? Oh, that NEVER happens.

It would be different if he had the support of the military, or he had international backing. But he has neither.

Mubarak has kept the peace for 30 years. He's a hell of a lot more trustworthy than the alternative who are already planning for a war with Israel. A war which Egypt can't win, and won't help anything.

He is trustworthy with us, his American sponsors. With the Egyptian people, not so much. Ask the families of the thousands who have disappeared.

You think the protesters are not safe. What have you been watching on TV? Dude, the military generals didn't back Mubaric. Exactly who do you think is going to allow Mubaric to hunt down demonstrators at this point? If they accept his pledge to step down their safe as they can be. If they won't be. It's as simple as that.

So you have any idea of the difference between the military and the secret police in Egypt? They are not the same thing at all. Those protestors who have been caught on video are ****ed if they don't win this thing. They will disappear, one by one, in the middle of the night. Or one of their family members will disappear, until the bad protestor suddenly decides to make a confession.

You really have absolutely no clue how the Egyptian secret police work, do you?

I would think the same thing would happen in the US if 10,000 guys demonstrated on the mall for a repeal of the government without an election and wouldn't dispand.

I think it's frightening how you want to turn over a country of 80 million people to the moslem brotherhood and watch the resulting religious ethnic wars spread across the middle east. I think it's frightenning how you dismiss their stated goals and even what they say today their intentions will be.

I think it is frightening how much you buy into Mubarak's propoganda. You know, it is possible to be a Muslim country and actually be a functioning democracy that does not impose sharia law and attack all your neighbors. Turkey does it. Indonesia does it. Egypt might be able to do it too.

[TheGoodBits]

sadly, this appears to be the safe bet right now.

I'm just hoping this doesn't turn into Egypt's Tiananmen Square. Of course, with the way the media has been revolutionized in the time since then, the world will know.

[visionary]

You think the protesters are not safe. What have you been watching on TV? Dude, the military generals didn't back Mubaric. Exactly who do you think is going to allow Mubaric to hunt down demonstrators at this point? If they accept his pledge to step down their safe as they can be. If they won't be. It's as simple as that.

Yes, they're safe now in the square where it's easy to defend themselves and where the army can keep thugs at bay farther away.

There is no guarantee at all that the army would be able to protect them for months if they all separated and went back to their normal lives with things the way they are now.

---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 07:34 PM ----------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#0021: The BBC's Jeremy Bowen says there is clear evidence that people connected with the ruling party were behind the pro-Mubarak demonstrations yesterday. The Egyptian government has said that peaceful marches should not be interfered with, but how do you define peaceful

#2344: Two of America's prime-time news anchors, NBC's Brian Williams and CBS's Katie Couric, have left Egypt amid a crackdown on the media covering the protests. They have been anchoring their nightly broadcasts from Cairo for several days.

#0026: Senator John McCain told the BBC's World News America: "If Mubarak arranged for his vice-president to take charge and at the same time to include the pro-democracy forces - but not the Muslim Brotherhood - in a coalition government that would arrange free and fair elections, I think it is very likely there would be calm in Egypt."

#0027: More from Senator McCain: "President Mubarak has been a good friend. He has helped us with Israel and to stymie al-Qaeda. We should be appreciative of that." He later added that the message from the events in Cairo is that "oppressive and repressive regimes cannot last for ever".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#0039: Ramez Mohamed tweets: "I just want an Egypt like Tahrir square: organized, clean, everyone helping, loving each other and expressing opinion freely."

[Predicto]

Did Glenn Beck take over JMS's account?

I listened to Beck today(first time in 6 months) JMS and Beck are pretty much on the same page with this one.

Beck's analysis of this situation the other day was - Literally - one of the stupidest, shallowest things I have ever seen in my life. The funniest part whas how he starts with: "The Truth has no agenda. The Media does. And Obama does. The truth has no agenda, but you don't know the truth! So I'm going to be the only one to give you the truth..."

Then he immediately piles on an enormous helping of :pooh: with an obvious agenda. Beck tells us that this is a carefully coordinated worldwide terrorist operation which will culminate with the collapse of France, Spain, Italy, Greece etc. Our only choices are to support a nominally pro-western dictator in Egypt or lose Israel and all of Western Civilisation to the fires of a barbaric Muslim caliphate! There are no other possibilities!!!!

You really have to watch this madness.

PH7GPPpsw6g&hd=1

[Larry]

Pointing out, though, to all the folks downplaying The Muslim Brotherhood,

I have to observe that we've all seen an example of a terrorist organization with a nice-looking, humanitarian, smiling front: Hamas. Hamas runs schools, and medical centers, and all kinds of nice things.

Just as there's reason to be skeptical of any promises made by Mubaric, I think there's reason to be skeptical of Muslim organizations who say "oh, I gave up those Muslim extremist views, and I'm a good guy, now", too.

Now, from what I've read (which consists pretty much of this thread), I don't see any reason to assume that they're a terrorist front organization, or that they want to behead all non-Muslims, or whatever. (in fact, it looks to me like what's happened with the Brotherhood is that they decided to endorse ElBaradi because he looks like the frontrunner, kind of like the folks in American politics who endorse whoever they think is going to win, anyway, to try to make themselves look relevant, or in hopes of being invited to sit at the table.)

Just pointing out that the fact that their press spokesman says placating things doesn't prove that they aren't fanatics, either.

[Predicto]

Absolutely, Larry.

Unfortuantely, we have to accept that when people get real democracy, there is a risk that sometimes they won't choose the leaders that we want them to. We have to hope that in the long run, democracy will be a liberalizing, modernizing influence.

The other choice is to support only ruthless dictators that we can control, and thus really BE the evil Satan that Iran accuses us of being, and spend the rest of time with endless hatred and resentment against America boiling up all over the Muslim World. I don't think that works out very well for us, and it certainly goes against everything that this country is supposed to stand for.

[visionary]

Pointing out, though, to all the folks downplaying The Muslim Brotherhood,

I have to observe that we've all seen an example of a terrorist organization with a nice-looking, humanitarian, smiling front: Hamas. Hamas runs schools, and medical centers, and all kinds of nice things.

Just as there's reason to be skeptical of any promises made by Mubaric, I think there's reason to be skeptical of Muslim organizations who say "oh, I gave up those Muslim extremist views, and I'm a good guy, now", too.

Now, from what I've read (which consists pretty much of this thread), I don't see any reason to assume that they're a terrorist front organization, or that they want to behead all non-Muslims, or whatever. (in fact, it looks to me like what's happened with the Brotherhood is that they decided to endorse ElBaradi because he looks like the frontrunner, kind of like the folks in American politics who endorse whoever they think is going to win, anyway, to try to make themselves look relevant, or in hopes of being invited to sit at the table.)

Just pointing out that the fact that their press spokesman says placating things doesn't prove that they aren't fanatics, either.

I definitely think it could be a mistake to completely ignore them or to take everything they say at face value.

I don't think it's a good idea to obsess about them either though. (not that most of us here are)

And I have a hard time siding with a government who has proven monstrous to their people and the media and allows no one to see what they are up to, over an organization that has so far stood up for democracy. If Mubarak and company want support, they ought to act like they deserve it.

(Err, added something by accident, lol.)

---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 08:04 PM ----------

Anderson Cooper is on CNN now, live talking about the targeting of journalists and says the government is almost assuredly behind it and that it seems to be part of a broad plan to paint the media as the enemy by folks like the VP and others.

[brandymac27]

Predicto: I think it is frightening how much you buy into mubarak's propoganda. You know, it is possible to be a muslim country and actually be a functioning democracy that does not impose sharia law and attack all your neighbors. Turkey does it. Indonesia does it. Egypt might be able to do it too.

this!

[visionary]

#0046: Steve Holland, US political reporter for Reuters tweets: "By a voice vote, the Senate approved the McCain-Kerry resolution calling on Mubarak to give way to an interim caretaker government in Egypt."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

Muslim Brotherhood leader is on CNN now!

[Larry]

And I have a hard time siding with a government who has proven monstrous to their people and the media and allows no one to see what they are up to, over an organization that has so far stood up for democracy. If Mubarak and company want support, they ought to act like they deserve it.

I'm hearing a smart*** little voice asking me how many of the people who seem to think that we must support Mubarik, because he's the only thing preventing The Brotherhood from causing Universal Armageddon, also would insist that the invasion of Iraq was a Great Move, because of Saddam's Human Rights record.

Shut up, you little voice.

[twa]

I hope you're right buddy. The failure of the Green Revolution was just devestating. Now you have Iran rubber-stamping executions. If Mubarak isn't toppled it's going to get even uglier.

[brandymac27]

Just a question: Would it really be that bad of an idea to forge some type of relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. If they are pro democracy, and the U.S. supports them, maybe it won't turn into WW3 as some people assume. Maybe, it will make the U.S. look a little better to certain ME countries who already think we hate them and make things more stable there?

[Predicto]

I love the idea that Obama is responsible for the failure of the 2009 Green Revolution in Iran.

[visionary]

Just a question: Would it really be that bad of an idea to forge some type of relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. If they are pro democracy, and the U.S. supports them, maybe it won't turn into WW3 as some people assume. Maybe, it will make the U.S. look a little better to certain ME countries who already think we hate them and make things more stable there?

I wasn't too enthused after watching the spokesman talk on CNN.

But they probably ought to have some sort of role in the future of Egypt anyway, even if we don't agree some of their views.

Hopefully the military, the judiciary, and the people will stand up to them, if they try to go to far.

[Larry]

Just a question: Would it really be that bad of an idea to forge some type of relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. If they are pro democracy, and the U.S. supports them, maybe it won't turn into WW3 as some people assume. Maybe, it will make the U.S. look a little better to certain ME countries who already think we hate them and make things more stable there?

If I were Captain Kirk, and I had the USS Enterprise in orbit above me, (and if I was planning on leaving after the next commercial, so I don't have to see whether me actions actually worked or not), what I'd like to see us do with countries (like Iraq) would be to impose the US Constitution on them. A federal government with limited powers, with Constitutional guarantees of freedom of Religion (I could see problems getting people to ratify that part), freedom of Speech and Press, Equal protection, and things like that. And turn them loose.

I see obvious problems with that. Like somehow I don't see the voters approving of freedom of religion. And, to me, the big problem is that even if I could impose such a Constitution, I think that within 10 years, they'd be ignoring it.

But it's a fantasy I have.

[NavyDave]

If I'm Israel, the Red Button is less than arm distance away and my faith in the left in the USA to support me is nearly non existent the way they are downplaying the Muslim Brotherhood and a potential Caliphate. Maybe the left doesn't have access to the islamic websites or interaction with the not so nice friends of the bean pie guy off of New York Avenue, DC.

bash the messenger time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG8FooNdWGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS0jQLj6LMY

[visionary]

If I'm Israel, the Red Button is less than arm distance away and my faith in the left in the USA to support me is nearly non existent the way they are downplaying the Muslim Brotherhood and a potential Caliphate. Maybe the left doesn't have access to the islamic websites or interaction with the not so nice friends of the bean pie guy off of New York Avenue, DC.

LMAO! Every day we hear the Brotherhood brought up by the politicians and the media over and over again.

I don't particularly trust them, but to say they are being downplayed is...well...silly.

Not sure what to say to the rest of that....

[Larry]

Not sure what to say to the rest of that....

I usually stick with .

Followed by "Next Post".

[twa]

I love the idea that Obama is responsible for the failure of the 2009 Green Revolution in Iran.

That was not my intent(though I can understand why you might think so)

Brandymac....O has been reaching out to the Brotherhood for yrs....I hope he is not wrong about them

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

The reactions of some conservatives (e.g. Navy Dave) to this just further confuses me about what exactly the point of the Iraq War was. Not that it makes me disagree with the war more but just what the point of it even was.

[JMS]

Now, from what I've read (which consists pretty much of this thread), I don't see any reason to assume that they're (muslem brotherhood) a terrorist front organization, or that they want to behead all non-Muslims, or whatever.

You don't? They are one of the oldest and most influencial muslim fundimentalist parties. They have renounced violence since 1927(*), except they have been involved in violence again and again over the decades. When Egypt first broke with the UK the brotherhood tried to use intimidation and selective assasignations to usurp power. The british trained egyptian army stopped them. since that time core members of many terrorist organizations including Al Quada have come from among their ranks. The brotherhood for example shares the same goals as Al Quada for example. A Pan Muslim state spanning continents ruled by sharia law and the Quaran. The brotherhood also tried to userp power in the 1980's in Syria.. again thwarted....

(*) The have never renounced violence with regards to Israel, rather they have consistently condoned even called for violence towards her.

Just today you had the deputy leader of the Moslem Brotherhood Rashad al-Bayoumi say on Japaneese TV in an interview they wanted to withdrawl Egypt from the 32 year old peace treaty with Israel. They are opennly saying after Mubaric leaves they are going to withdrawl from the treaty and attack Israel? A return to the bad old days when Israel and Egypt fought 4 wars in a 25 year period. Is that terrorism? No, it's worse.

Muslim Brotherhood seeks end to Israel treaty

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/3/muslim-brotherhood-seeks-end-to-israel-treaty/

(in fact, it looks to me like what's happened with the Brotherhood is that they decided to endorse ElBaradi because he looks like the frontrunner, kind of like the folks in American politics who endorse whoever they think is going to win, anyway, to try to make themselves look relevant, or in hopes of being invited to sit at the table.)

Just pointing out that the fact that their press spokesman says placating things doesn't prove that they aren't fanatics, either.

Yep they are backing ElBaradi because they think he will be easier to manipulate and control and eventually replace.

Here is the deal. If the brotherhood were the majority one could argue they should have a shot to rule. But they aren't the majority view of Egyptians. Most Egyptions don't support them. But they are the largest oposition party currently and they are by far and away the best organized. Give the other egyptians 6-7 months to organize up a bit before elections are held and perhaps the brotherhoods influence will be more proportional to their percentage of supporters.

Which is the prudent, conservative... and morally correct thing to do.

---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 10:26 PM ----------

The reactions of some conservatives (e.g. Navy Dave) to this just further confuses me about what exactly the point of the Iraq War was. Not that it makes me disagree with the war more but just what the point of it even was.

The point of the Iraqi war was to keep Iraq from getting nukes and then giving those nukes to Al Quada.... The administrations clearly linked Iraq to 9/11 and this justified our invasion on the grounds of pre-emptive war to stop a greater more costly war.

The fact that Iraq had no nukes and no intention to assist or aid Al Quada and was entirely not involved in 9/11 as it turned out after our invasion; invalidated this justification.. which means we went to war in Iraq for entirely invalid reasons.

Bush's whole "democracies will spring up across the ME" after thought. Is horse hockey. These current demonstrations have nothing to do with Bush and Iraq and everything to do with a young man in Tunisia who couldn't find a job and lit himself on fire in protest of the plight of his generation... The young mans sacrifice resinating with the Arabs on the street. Has more to do with Bush's ethenol program which has caused food ( grain, wheat, and corn ) to go up globally; than Our invasion of Iraq.