db: Gibbs: America Will Not Take Sides in Egypt

[visionary]

Right now the crow in Tahrir Square looks very large.

There doesn't seem to be much of a drawdown from recent days at all.

Earlier protesters formed a human chain to keep tanks from moving in.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/05/egypt-crisis-gas-pipeline-ablaze-in-suspected-terror-attack/?hpt=T1

[update 4:09 p.m. in Cairo, 9:09 a.m. ET] The German diplomat who said there was an assassination attempt against Egypt's new vice president has retracted his comments. "I was led to believe that we had a confirmed report but in fact we didn't," he told CNN. He added the information he received was based on an unsubstantiated source.

[update 11:49 a.m. in Cairo, 4:49 a.m. ET] Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei was in Cairo's Tahrir Square late Saturday morning. ElBaradei's National Association for Change movement told CNN he will make his way to a podium to speak to crowds.

[update 2:17 p.m. in Cairo, 7:17 a.m. ET] Protesters formed a new opposition group Saturday to represent anti-government demonstrators gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square. Mohamed ElBaradei's Association for National Change and a leftist Tagammu party leader announced the new group of 10 people, which includes ElBaradei, Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohamed Beltagy and liberal Ghad party leader Ayman Nour. The newly formed opposition group is calling for Mubarak's resignation and the right to demonstrate peacefully.

[update 2:26 p.m. in Cairo, 7:26 a.m. ET] Egypt's El Arish natural gas pipeline to Jordan has been closed after an attack set it on fire, the head of Jordan's national electricity company told CNN on Saturday. Ghaleb Al Maabreh said repairs will take at least a week, and will be paid for by Jordan.

[update 4:48 p.m. in Cairo, 9:48 a.m. ET] Khaled Serri Seyam, the head of the Egyptian stock market, told the official Egyptian news agency that the decision to reopen the market on Monday is now canceled and that the stock market will stay closed for now.

[update 5:02 p.m. in Cairo, 10:02 a.m. ET] Talks between newly appointed Vice President Omar Suleiman and a few opposition groups started Saturday.

At a news conference Saturday, Interior Ministry spokesman Ismail Othman said, "The army remains neutral and is not taking sides because if we protect one side we will be perceived as bias ... our role is to prevent clashes and chaos as we separate the opposing groups."

Egyptian courts will return to work Sunday, the justice minister announced on state TV Saturday.

---------- Post added February-5th-2011 at 10:36 AM ----------

from BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1048: It now looks like the Muslim Brotherhood aren't shifting their position on what pre-conditions have to be met to enter into talks with the government, and still insist President Mubarak resign first, the BBC's Magdi Abdelhadi reports in Cairo.

#1102: Imran in Lahore, Pakistan, says: "We the people of Pakistan fully support the struggle of our Arab brothers on class basis. We don't support Muslim Brotherhood or any other fundamentalist party. What we stand for is the end of puppet regimes and establishment of democracy throughout the Middle East."

#1205: Away from the central square much of Cairo is starting to come back to life. The BBC's Paul Danahar says: "Shops are open, coffee shops are packed with people talking about the week's events. And they are all speaking much more freely and openly than they would have felt able to 10 days ago. Life is getting back to normal - but after the protests 'normal' now means something new in Cairo."

#1247: The BBC's Helena Merriman in Cairo says: "Just spoke to a soldier manning the checkpoint to Tahrir Square. He says they've been ordered to keep things under control and allow journalists through. But he says he and all his friends support Mubarak as "he is a wise man and like a father to all of us in the army".

1249: Protester Mosa'ab Elshamy in Tahrir Square told the BBC: "Things are getting a little tense. The army is trying to remove the barbed wire around the square and if they succeed there will be nothing to stop people attacking us. We are trying to block the army by lying down next to the tanks. Everyone is remaining totally peaceful. There are no clashes yet. We are not getting fed up - in fact we are getting more accustomed to conditions living here in the square. Many people have said they are prepared to die here."

#1312: We've just heard the army is trying to enter Tahrir Square. BBC Arabic correspondent in Cairo Mustafa Menshawy says dozens of soldiers have attempted to remove barriers set up by the protestors at one of the entrances to the square. He says a senior army official tried to negotiate the army's entrance to parts of the square which led to arguments with the protesters, who accused the army of attempting to retake control of the square.

#1321: Mosa'ab Elshamy, one of the protesters we heard from a short while ago, says the army has moved some of its tanks in front the barricades at Tahrir Square. "They are trying to scare us to go home," he told the BBC. He said the protesters wouldn't go before Mr Mubarak left office - concessions and so-called regime changes were all just promises so far. "I don't think it's going to be easy to convince people here to leave before Mubarak is stepping down."

1332: 2Back to the talks - no word on any meeting yet. But a quick word on the two parties we expect to meet the vice-president. They are thought to have done a backroom deal at the time of the last presidential elections, colluding with the government to allow them to take over from the Muslim Brotherhood as the main opposition (although in the end, the government failed to deliver its side of the bargain). "So if it is just involving them, this is not a credible dialogue with the opposition," says the BBC's John Leyne.

#1526: Egyptian state TV reports that members of the politburo of the ruling NDP have handed in their resignations.

Al Jazeera is reporting that a lot of NDP members have resigned, including the speaker of the parliament and Gamal Mubarak

[JMS]

I think this would actually work fairly well since the people have an enormous respect for the army, just have to make sure the army doesn't play kingmaker.

I think that's an important note. Egypts army is a conscription army. Everybody either has had or has a family member in the military. Egyptians feel very close and respctful of their military. That and the fact that hundreds even thousands of their military leaders were trained by and with our military in the United States and our military has extremely close ties to their military at pretty much all levels.

There military seems to be the universal key that everybody in Egypt and outside of Egypt thus kind of trusts to hold down the fort for an interum period before the next level of elections...

That puts the real focus on ensuring those elections are free and fair; and that all loyal egyptians who are committed to the democratic process should be able to organize and participate in the coming months.

[visionary]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1536: More on the resignation of Egypt's top leadership: Those who resigned include Gamal Mubarak, the son of President Mubarak, state television says, according to Reuters. The new secretary general of the party is Hossam Badrawi, seen as a liberal in the party. [

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/04/live-blog-feb-5-egypt-protests

4:35pm 500 protesters have arrived in Tahrir Square from the port city of Suez. The protesters have called for another day of protests tomorrow called "the day of the martyred". Also on Sunday, the Copts in Egypt have called for Sunday mass to take place in Tahrir Square.

#1544: A few minutes ago, an Egyptian army commander addressed thousands of protesters in Tahrir Square to persuade them to end their protest: "You all have the right to express yourselves, but please save what is left of Egypt. Look around you," Hassan al-Roweny said using a loudspeaker. But he was shouted down by the crowd and ended his address.

The army seems to be coming out in support of Mubark or at least returning things to normal and stability, quite a bit today. Although they have not attacked or forced the protesters yet. It's possible that they do side with them, though they have to keep up the facade of supporting the government for official purposes. It's also possible that they genuinely side with Mubarak and are growing less patient with the protesters.

But continued frustration could force them to turn against the government no matter what their position. On the other hand it could also force them to break their promise not to fire on the Egyptian people. We'll have to see what happens.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/04/live-blog-feb-5-egypt-protests

5:45pm Osama Abd Elaziz, Al Jazeera editor, has been released from custody in Egypt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1619:: : Amnesty International has called for an investigation into the detention of some 35 human rights activists and journalists, including two Amnesty International staff members, who were freed after spending almost two days in military custody.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1636:: : A Coptic church in the Egyptian town of Rafah bordering the Gaza Strip was in flames on Saturday, with witnesses reporting a blast, although a local official denied an explosion was the cause, AFP news agency reports.

#1656: The Governor of North Sinai, Abd-al-Wahab Mabruk, has denied there was any blast at the church in Rafah.

[JMS]

Just pointing out, I think that the Brotherhood, right now, is the largest non-Mubaric voting block in Parliament. I've heard 20%.

They have been elected.

The Brotherhood has been outlawed in Egypt since 1947. When the british pulled out they tried to usurp power in a wave of murders and intimidation campagne which the military defeated. Or at least thats what the Egyptian government claims.

So it would be pretty dificult to conduct a poll on their popularity, suffice it to say they are a well organized motivated minority view point.

As for the largest opposition party to the government. Again you have to consider the country. All oposition partys were illegal in Egypt unless specifically authorized by Mubaric. So saying you're the largest of something that doesn't exist really isn't all that impressive.

I would argue there is a lot of oposition to Mubaric and a lot of ideas on how to conduct Egyptian affairs which don't agree with the brotherhood. IT's just those voices have been styfled and are not well organized.

Theory: I think that one of the thing the protesters want is Constitutional Reform. Maybe what they're saying is that they want El Baradei to head up that operation?

I believe they've got a constitution. The problem is it's been suspended for decades. My two concerns are

(1) Stability.

(2) Artificially promoting one group over another.

Those are the two biggest dangers with regard to world peace. I remember the days when Egypt filled the spot Iran fills today. The beligerant country who waged wars, threatenned shipping, and generally caused the free world headaches. That may occur again through a democratic process; but we shouldn't unintentionally promote that path. It's not good for us, and it's certainly not good for Egypt.

[visionary]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/04/live-blog-feb-5-egypt-protests

6:08pm Egyptian TV reports that Hosni Mubarak resigns as head of the ruling NDP party

At least one of the protesters' spokespeople has said it's not going to be enough.

6:00pm General Hassan El-Rawani, the head of the army's central command, speaks to the masses in Tahrir Square urging them to leave the square, they chant back at him "We are not leaving, He [Mubarak] is leaving".

qxQP6hAb6M8

Al Jazeera seems to be more critical of the protesters today and is using some much more pessimistic language about their chances of keeping things going (at least when talking to the protesters). I think it's odd, because to me it seems like the protesters are gaining more ground.

It seems that there may be some strategy to the continued insistence that Mubarak must resign. According to one opposition member on AL Jazeera the resignation of Mubarak would signal a collapse of the system and the government. So I wonder if the continued calls for Mubarak's resignation are partly an attempt to turn the members of the government against each other and make them lose morale and cohesion.

Uh...hmmm.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1632: Egyptian state TV reports monitored by the BBC suggest that President Mubarak did not quit as party leader after all.

[ixcuincle]

BREAKING Mubarak resigns as head of Egypt's ruling party, according to state TV http://*******/fHvJRr /via @BreakingNews

http://twitter.com/JozyAltidore17/statuses/33923244754993152

[jpyaks3]

A pretty awesome video from the January 28th Protests

[visionary]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/04/live-blog-feb-5-egypt-protests

8:07pm Hosni Mubarak must stay in power for the time being, says Frank Wisner, Barack Obama's special envoy for Egypt.

We need to get a national consensus around the pre-conditions for the next step forward. The president must stay in office to steer those changes.

#1809: In US envoy Wisner's words: "I believe that President Mubarak's continued leadership is critical - it's his chance to write his own legacy."

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Then why say anything at all?

Incredibly stupid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

1756: Ossama El-Maghraby in Alexandria writes: "A point has to be made clear to the west, majority of Egyptians do not like the Muslim Brotherhood, and would not accept living under Islamic law. I believe one of the unannounced goals of these is to create a truly secular society, operating under a free market with anti-monopoly laws.

---------- Post added February-5th-2011 at 02:56 PM ----------

Ok, this is a litle more reassuring.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1915: The BBC's Tom Burridge in Washington says the crucial element of Mr Wisner's comments was how long he foresaw President Mubarak remaining in office. If it is only a few weeks, then it is not too far from what the US administration has been saying, but if he means stay until the elections, then that is a big change, he says.

#1923: The US State Department has refused to comment on Frank Wisner's remarks.

#1931: More on Frank Wisner's remarks. A US official quoted by AFP news agency says the envoy spoke as a private citizen about President Mubarak's future role.

#1951: The BBC's Helena Merriman reports seeing two government-employed imams near Tahrir Square, encouraging protesters to keep going. They said that for years they have had to censor what they say in their mosques but now they are preaching openly about freedom of expression. One said: "I now feel closer to God knowing that I can say what is really in my heart."

---------- Post added February-5th-2011 at 03:17 PM ----------

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/04/live-blog-feb-5-egypt-protests

9:47pm Slavoj Žižek, writing for the Guardian, takes on the “breathtaking” hypocrisy of western liberals in prioritising stability over democracy in the Arab world.

"Why fear the Arab revolutionary spirit?"

Here, then, is the moment of truth: one cannot claim, as in the case of Algeria a decade ago, that allowing truly free elections equals delivering power to Muslim fundamentalists. Another liberal worry is that there is no organised political power to take over if Mubarak goes. Of course there is not; Mubarak took care of that by reducing all opposition to marginal ornaments, so that the result is like the title of the famous Agatha Christie novel, And Then There Were None. The argument for Mubarak – it's either him or chaos – is an argument against him.

The hypocrisy of western liberals is breathtaking: they publicly supported democracy, and now, when the people revolt against the tyrants on behalf of secular freedom and justice, not on behalf of religion, they are all deeply concerned. Why concern, why not joy that freedom is given a chance? Today, more than ever, Mao Zedong's old motto is pertinent: "There is great chaos under heaven – the situation is excellent."

Where, then, should Mubarak go? Here, the answer is also clear: to the Hague. If there is a leader who deserves to sit there, it is him.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/933097--the-al-jazeera-moment

The ‘Al Jazeera moment’?

Twenty years later — this past week — another channel has been filling those screens with riveting and exclusive live pictures and interviews, chronicling the seismic events unfolding in Egypt and elsewhere in the Middle East. It has also been telling a larger, more nuanced story of that region than is currently available to most North Americans.

That channel has been Al Jazeera English (AJE) — the English-language service of a network that is available in 220 million households in more than 100 countries, including Canada, but still not broadcast on TV screens throughout most of the United States.

A notable and significant exception is the Washington, D.C., area, where it is available on local cable systems in 2 million households.

So this past week, according to several American media accounts, many TV sets in the White House, State Department, Pentagon and throughout much of the nation’s capital were fixated on AJE’s coverage of these historic events, which has received overwhelming praise in U.S. media circles.

This has not gone unnoticed. Traffic to AJE’s live online streaming of its coverage ( www.aljazeera.net/english) has increased 2,500 per cent in the past week, with up to 60 per cent of that coming from the U.S.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#2039: Egypt's cultural glitterati have joined the protesters on the square calling for an immediate end to President Mubarak's rule, Reuters reports. Khalid Abdalla, a British-Egyptian actor known for his lead role in the 2007 adaptation of Khaled Hosseini's The Kite Runner, said: "I'm here because I'm asking for Mubarak to step down. I've been here since Friday before last."

[visionary]

I haven't heard anything about Alexandria today.

I wonder how things are going over there.

A couple of pictures I've seen posted:

8:47pm A picture posted online yesterday, showing how protesters in Tahrir Square charge their mobile phones. Some protesters have been camped out in the square for many days. Al Jazeera cannot verify any details of this image.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/04/live-blog-feb-5-egypt-protests

Protesters line up against Egyptian military tanks at an entrance to Tahrir Square on Saturday

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/05/egypt.unrest.standoff/index.html?hpt=T1

An eyewitness said scuffles broke out after an army general asked demonstrators to take down their makeshift barricades of corrugated steel and debris, which were built up during 48 hours of bloody fighting with regime supporters next to Cairo's landmark Egyptian Museum.

"This general went through the barricades, they [the soldiers] knocked down some barricades on the way to the museum, which caused some panic and scuffling," said photographer Ron Haviv. "When he did it all chaos broke loose."

Haviv said that initial tension was defused after Gen. Hassan Al Roweni began negotiating with medics who have established a first aid station for wounded combatants just behind the first line of barriers.

"He is still talking to doctors at the clinic," Haviv said. "He is asking them to remove the clinic."

Later, Roweni made a tour of Tahrir.

Military guards in red berets struggled to hold back the enthusiastic crowd as many Egyptians tried to embrace and kiss the general amid chants of "The military and the people are one hand."

Eyewitnesses said Roweni's visit appeared aimed at trying to persuade demonstrators to reopen the square to ordinary traffic.

The officer took to the stage erected at the north end of the square for several minutes and made an unsuccessful attempt to appeal to the demonstrators.

"You can all express your views and opinions freely, but I ask you to put the security of Egypt first," Roweni announced through a loudspeaker system.

"This is directed to the youth of January 25th," he added, referring to the date when protests first erupted, throwing Egypt into what many observers now call a political revolution.

"There are many people who are manipulating you," Roweni said.

The crowd chanted a simple answer: "No, no, no."

The general concluded his short statement by saying, "I don't understand what it is you want."

The crowd roared back a chant that has been repeated for days across the open expanses of Tahrir Square: "Leave, leave, leave. He leaves, we leave."

This call for Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to resign is the demand that unites the grass-roots movement in Tahrir.

After hearing the answer from the crowd, Roweni left the stage and the square without saying another word.

---------- Post added February-5th-2011 at 03:38 PM ----------

#2025: Dramatic events are unfolding on Tahrir Square, the BBC's Jim Muir reports from close to the Egyptian national museum. On the north corner of the square, troops have sealed off the front of the protesters' barricade with a second barricade of barbed wire, and between the two lines protesters are lying down in their hundreds, in case the army should move tanks forward into the square. New tanks have also arrived in front of the museum itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

Looking at the live footage on Al Jazeera, everything looks ok in Tahrir, except for the rain and the cold.

I hope they don't all get sick. Although I see them putting up a lot of tents now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#2043: US State Department spokesman PJ Crowley: "We have great respect for Frank Wisner and we were deeply appreciative of his willingness to travel to Egypt last week. He has not continued in any official capacity following the trip. The views he expressed today are his own. He did not coordinate his comments with the US government."

[visionary]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/05/anderson-cooper-leaves-egypt_n_819140.html

Anderson Cooper Leaves Egypt

Anderson Cooper announced on Saturday that he is leaving Egypt after a week in which he and his crew were repeatedly targeted by supporters of President Hosni Mubarak.

He tweeted, "It is with a heavy heart that I have decided to leave #Egypt. CNN continues to have many teams in place. It was a hard decision to leave."

Cooper was attacked twice by pro-Mubarak forces. On Tuesday, he was punched in the head repeatedly. On Wednesday, the window of the car he was in was smashed through by a rock. He was forced to go into hiding and report from a secret location.

Cooper is the latest high-profile American journalist to leave Cairo this week. Katie Couric and Brian Williams both returned to the U.S. earlier in the week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#2139: Protesters say they know they will have to be patient, the Associated Press reports from Tahrir Square. "The French Revolution took a very long time so the people could eventually get their rights," said student Ahmed Abdel Moneim, 22. "If we have to spend our life to get rid of Mubarak, we will." Electrical engineer Sharif Mohammed summed up the exhausting vigil he and the others have been keeping in the square: "Every day we sit out here, we gain against Mubarak. Maybe we'll be tired for a month but we will be able to live in freedom for the rest of our life."

#2159: The BBC's Kim Ghattas tweets: "US official told me - Mubarak should have dignified exit, hinted should be able to stay in Egypt, not exile. On agenda of transition talks?"

Those were from earlier.

I haven't seen many new updates or any live coverage this evening.

[visionary]

Some updates this morning from the Al Jazeera website.

(I haven't seen any live footage on tv yet)

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/05/live-blog-feb-6-egypt-protests)

6:05am Still dark in Tahrir Square. Our corresponent says it's quiet on the ground and significantly less military presence than in recent days. Copts say they'll be holding prayers in the square later in the day.

9:08am Our correspondent in Cairo says that the Christian Coptic prayers, to be held later in the day, is a way for the Copts to counter claims by state television that most of the protesters are members of the Muslim Brotherhood. She says the Christians want to show they are part of the popular uprising and have the same grievances and demands as the rest of the people.

9:45am Our reporter says the streets of Cairo seem to be slowly getting back to normal, with traffic police back out in force. Banks are to officially re-open in just 15 minutes.

10:06am: Protesters are trying to convince civil servants who're going back to work in the big government building at Tahrir Square to "take a week off" and join the demonstrations, our correspondent reports.

8:12am Our correspondent in Alexandria, one of the Muslim Brotherhood's strongholds, says many people are surprised by the group's decision to enter talks with the government. He says it's a major concession that might be seen as a "weakness" that the Brotherhood didn't hold on to it's previous statement that it wouldn't join negotiations until President Mubarak resigns.

8:03am The Muslim Brotherhood says in a statement that it "has decided to participate in a dialogue round in order to understand how serious the officials are in dealing with the demands of the people."

It also says the participation is driven by the Brotherhood's interests in "protecting the interests of the nation and its institutions. It is also driven by interest in "protecting the independence of Egypt and their rejection of any international or regional intervention."

Oh yeah, this is going to help Mubarak's case.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/06/egypt.cheney/index.html?hpt=T1

(CNN) -- Former Vice President Dick Cheney said Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is a good friend and U.S. ally, but declined to predict whether the embattled leader would heed protesters' calls to step down.

Cheney made the comments Saturday night at a ceremony honoring former President Ronald Reagan in Santa Barbara, California.

"He has been a good man, a good friend and ally to the United States," Cheney said. "We need to remember that."

"I don't want to make a prediction because I don't know," Cheney said. "But I also think there comes a time for everybody when it's time to hang it up and move on and someone else will take over."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#0832: The BBC's Ian Pannell in Cairo says the army are stopping protestors from taking food into Tahrir Square. Angry demonstrators say the army "are trying to starve the people," our correspondent says.

---------- Post added February-6th-2011 at 03:52 AM ----------

Two pictures from Al Jazeera's Feb 6 blog.

Tahrir Square Sunday morning (today)

[visionary]

They have live coverage and tv footage of Tahrir Square this morning on Al Jazeera.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/05/live-blog-feb-6-egypt-protests

11:19am In a sign of unity, crowds in Tahrir Square are chanting "We are one, we are one" ahead of the prayers to be held at noon for those killed over the past 13 days of protest. "Muslims and Copts hand in hand for a new dawn to rise" is another chant and NadiaE wrote on Twitter: "Off to Tahrir to attend Christian mass. My father - a 73-yr-old ill, bearded conservative Muslim - is with me."

11:50am Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, has called for a "democratic transition" in Egypt "in the shortest possible time," suggesting an interim government.

A democratic transition should be ensured in the shortest possible time... If this is achieved, I believe the people will definitely accept such an outcome"

From earlier:

They're starting the prayers now. Quite a lot of people there today.

Interesting, considering people work today over there I think.

Wow, there's a lot more people than I expected, tons.

I believe the Muslim prayer is first.

Apparently on State tv they're showing banks...really boring details of banks. lol

They're not showing the thousands and thousands praying in the square or the cars and people heading to Tahrir in a long line that never seems to end.

Luckily if people are going back to work or to the banks, I think it will be hard not to notice what's going on out there.

It looks like there's still a few thousand protesting in Alexandria too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1037: CNN's Hala Gorani tweets: "El Baradei/Moussa not part of today's meeting with VP Suleiman."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1057: Back in Tahrir square, there are now "more tents than ever" according to the BBC's Paul Danahar. "Several thousand people are inside chanting and singing. It looks increasingly like a British music festival though it has to be said the people here are doing a much better job of tidying up after themselves," says our correspondent.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/05/live-blog-feb-6-egypt-protests

1:11pm MENA news agency reports that talks today between Vice-President Omar Suleiman and opposition groups include members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the liberal Wafd party, the left-leaning Tagammu, and members of a committee picked by the pro-democracy youth groups which launched the mass protests.

Business tycoon Naguib Sawiris and a representative of opposition figure Mohamed ElBaradei are also attending, MENA says.

[visionary]

These updates are all from BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#1337: Vice-President Omar Suleiman has turned down a call to take on President Mubarak's powers, according to a participant at the government-opposition talks, the AFP news agency reports.

#1347: More comments on the talks from opposition figures: Rifaat Saeed, who heads the Tagammu (Assembly) party, and took part in the talks, said on state TV it was agreed that the state of emergency law would be lifted as soon as the "security situation returns to normal".

#1350: Another member of the opposition, Osama el Ghazaly Harb, who leads the Democratic Front Party and who did not take part in the dialogue, has said on BBC Arabic TV any talks which disregard the "main demand of those on the streets", which is that Hosni Mubarak step down, are null.

#1402: The BBC's Jon Leyne, in Cairo, says members of the opposition have told him that they did not think the government's offer of a committee on constitutional changes was a serious attempt to end the stand-off. They are still demanding that President Mubarak should leave before they engage in serious talks.

#1410: Following on from this morning's talks with the government, Muslim Brotherhood deputy leader Rashad Mohammed el-Bayoumy says the talks will only continue if there is progress towards meeting the movement's demands: "The immediate removal of this regime, beginning with Hosni Mubarak. The lifting of the emergency laws that we have been living under for more than 30 years... dissolving the parliament, which is in place only as a result of blatant election rigging, and finally, the release of all political prisoners."

#1545: Now the Mubarak government is putting out its version of events via state news agency Mena. It says all parties at Sunday's talks agreed "to seriously, urgently and honourably handle the current crisis facing the nation and address the legitimate demands of the 25 January youth and the national political forces"

#1550: The state news agency Mena statement continues that all parties at Sunday's talks agreed to "the peaceful transition of power in line with the constitution"

1550: Egyptian state news agency Mena adds that President Mubarak has promised to: "track down corrupt officials and those responsible for the chaos that followed the youth's uprising"; "restore the country's stability and security and give strict orders to the police to undertake their responsibility toward protecting citizens"; release "prisoners of conscience"; "allow media and communication outlets to work freely without imposing any extrajudicial restrictions on their activities"; and "lift the state of emergency pending improvement in the security situation"

[update 5:10 p.m. Cairo, 10:07 a.m. ET] Egyptian opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei said that the situation in Egypt remains in a standoff as long as President Hosni Mubarak refuses to leave. "I hope somebody will send a message, I don't know in which way, to President Mubarak that for the sake of the country, for his own dignity, to defuse this crisis, he better step down," ElBaradei told CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS." Watch Zakaria's take on whether Egypt is a revolution or a revolt.

#1635: In a CNN interview that is unlikely to go down well with the protesters in Tahrir Square, new Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq insists that President Mubarak will not step down until September.

#1637: In the same CNN interview, Prime Minister Shafiq is asked about about the arrests of journalists and activists. "If there are problems it's not intended," he says.

Righhhht, And there are still activists and journalists being detained and kidnapped by government elements as I type this.

Despite the positive spin from the government media, so far it seems that none of the opposition groups are very happy with the talks and most say that the government is not really taking them seriously and does not seem to be interested in making real changes right now. From what I've seen on tv recently, it appears that there are still massive crowds protesting in both Cairo and Alexandria. (I saw a pretty current bit of footage showing a lot more people in Alexandria than I saw this morning)

#1640 : BBC Arabic TV's Zein Tawfiq has interviewed Nigad el-Borie, a human rights activist opposed to the talks with the Mubarak government who's been protesting in Tahrir Square. He angrily dismissed the talks, saying: "Dialogue over what? This talk about constitutional amendments, they think they will now form a committee that will take a month to introduce amendments? Are you kidding me? What are you talking about?"

This seems more than a little suspicious and laughable to me as well. Supposedly the president has the sole power to change the constitution and I think he can do it right now if he wanted.

[twa]

This seems more than a little suspicious and laughable to me as well. Supposedly the president has the sole power to change the constitution and I think he can do it right now if he wanted.[/b]

And the guy you want to exercise that power is the guy you want thrown out for exercising that power?

I can see a panel being given the ability to rescind emergency law as a reasonable compromise instead.

[visionary]

And the guy you want to exercise that power is the guy you want thrown out for exercising that power?

I can see a panel being given the ability to rescind emergency law as a reasonable compromise instead.

I don't know, honestly. I'm personally not sure how much power Mubarak has these days at his age. I think there's a lot of other things that could be done that are probably more immediately important than removing him from the presidency. I don't know if the opposition agrees. They do seem to have a fairly consistent set of goals now from everything I've seen though. On the other hand the government hasn't really promised anything other than the reshuffling of the cabinet and the NDP so far that doesn't take place some vague time far into the future.

Random picture on CNN of Tahrir square today:

[jpyaks3]

Since there is a lot of discussion about the Muslim Brotherhood I figured I would post their 2008 platform. I don't see a whole lot that indicates anything other then a conservative party. Maybe someone else can point something out.

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=16257

Egyptians are suffering from the deteriorating local councils and lack of basic services, including health, education, drinking water sewerage and others. This led to violating all main rights of the citizens. This is attributed mainly to receding Islamic values which were always a main component of the Egyptian fabric, including Muslims and Copts. This led to the spread of corruption, bribery and nepotism, and the absence of popular supervision which should be carried out by Local People "s Councils.

From this stems the importance of breathing new life into these elected Local People "s Councils to achieve the required effective popular supervision. This made us decide to take part in these municipal elections, raising the banner of reform" I desire nothing but reform so far as I am able "(Surat Hood: from verse 88).

Taking part in the municipal elections, the Muslim Brotherhood group knows very well how difficult it is to be shouldered with a responsibility under hard economic conditions and administrative exercises that pose hurdles to work over, and in the midst of an atmosphere in which values, to which our people have been sticking, have receded, an atmosphere that lacks self-supervision, self-accountability and preservation of the national fabric and capabilities. In these elections, the Muslim Brotherhood group believes in the principles of participation with other national and political powers, and gives due consideration to reality, and repeatedly raises the banner of reform "I desire nothing but reform so far as I am able" (Surat Hood: from verse 88, according to the following bases:

1 - Following the divine instruction in the story of the messenger of Allah Mousa (Moses) - peace be upon him: "Hire him! For the best (man) that thou canst hire in the strong, the trustworthy", (AlQasas: verse 26), we support any efficient person who seeks to be shouldered with this responsibility, regardless of any religious or political affiliation.

2-Respecting the nation "s identity, constants, values and Islamic civilization.

3 - Rationalization of public spending in clear rules that achieve a just distribution, equal opportunities and commitment to giving priorities in addressing needs.

4-We demand fighting corruption in executive local councils through applying law and activating the popular supervision to elected local councils.

5-We confirm that the local development must be based on the principle of popular self-sufficiency to bridge the gap of the government withdrawal from funding some facilities.

6-Achieving popular solidarity among all citizens to face crises and disasters and fight disease, hunger and unemployment .. are one of the most important bases of success in the local work.

7-Giving care to the Egyptian citizen who is the main target of development.

8-Raising values of dialogue and cooperation among all.

These bases will definitely contribute to achieving justice, the core of Sharia (Islamic law, among citizens, and to restore the missing confidence-building between them and state bodies to continue building our beloved country, Egypt.

It is a source of honour for the Muslim Brotherhood to submit, to the Egyptian people, its municipal election platform which is derived from its general view of reform based on Islamic values in this important stage of our national history, through:

1-Fighting corruption in executive local councils through holding those corrupt persons accountably by applying law and activating the popular supervision to elected local councils.

2 - Reaching a complete local development based on popular self-sufficiency to bridge the gap created by the government "s withdrawal from funding facilities.

3 - Achieving popular solidarity among all citizens to face crises and disasters and to fight illiteracy, disease, hunger and unemployment.

To reach:

* A health service that meets the minimum required of health services.

* A serious primary education that establishes the basic cultural structure of students.

* A clean and sound environment which is void of all kinds of pollution.

We want all Egyptian citizens to be positive and create a heavy turnout in the coming Municipal elections:

"Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour". (AlMaeda, from verse 2.

- Together for fighting corruption.

- Together for fighting price hikes.

- Together for a popular development.

- Together for reform.

The cooperation of all efforts is a must so as to rise from stumbles, tackle our problems and to realize the required progress.

Therefore, we submit this platform hoping that you find your aspirations and seeking your usual support.

Main objectives of the program

1 - Encouraging popular efforts (societal participation in development and service projects).

2 - Focusing on integration and coordination among various bodies inside local councils.

3-Giving a priority to projects of cleaning, pure water, sewerage systems and protecting the environment.

4 - Activation the role of educational, religious and youth institutions in spreading awareness about problems in the society, human development, qualification and training.

5-Providing feasibility studies for development and investment projects and small projects that suit every local council and providing training on these projects.

6 - Caring for the youth, spreading Islamic values and fighting destructive habits invading the society.

7 - Fighting political, financial and administrative corruption and all forms of social hypocrisy.

8 - Fighting all everyday problems that Egyptian citizens suffer from.

9 - Supporting women "s role in the society in general and villages in particular, activating the Egyptian woman" s personal abilities and strengthening her role in contributing to plans and development processes, allowing her to cooperate in projects aiming to improve the quality of life and helping women in achieving a balance between her family role and her role in society.

10 - Developing, strengthening and encouraging the role of the private sector in supporting social and voluntary work to serve the Egyptian society.

11-Caring for real projects related to agricultural development, protection of the environment and natural resources.

Details of the Program

In the Health Field:

1-Activating a periodical supervision from Local People "s Council committees on health facilities.

2-Listing needs and calling on concerned authorities to implement them accompanied by a continuous monitoring to secure a quick implementation.

3-Activating voluntary popular efforts to afford a part of treatment and equipment of hospitals and health units (in coordination with charities).

4-Holding seminars to qet peole acquaited with health related issues and to warn against harmful hygienic conducts and against seasonal or unexpected diseases under the banner of "Protection is better than treatment".

5-Establishing a health unit or a medical center in every administrative unit, and developing the current ones through affording various specializations and the lack of doctors can be replaced the voluntary efforts.

6-Organizing free medical convoys that include various specializations, especially in poor regions that lack services, and attempting to afford free medication for them.

7-Affording better health services (an advanced health unit in every village, and a renal dialysis unit in every center).

In the Field of Education, Abolition of Illiteracy:

1-Breathing new life into educational bodies through activating a periodic popular supervision.

2-Working for increasing the number of schools in the various levels, specially primary education schools in villages (this can by supported by personal efforts of residents who may donate lands for this purpose), specially in overcrowded areas whose schools have morning and afternoon periods and in schools that have huge numbers of students.

3-Activating the role of Parents Councils to create a good contact between the school and society.

4-Encouraging popular and voluntary efforts in the field abolishing illiteracy, allocating incentive prizes for volunteers and coordinating between youth centers, charities and mosques in this field and not restricting adult education to only reading and writing, but making them be aware of various aspects of life.

5-Increasing one-class schools to solve the problem of leaving school, specially for girls.

6-Providing more opportunities for the participation of private civil and cooperative sector in widening the scope of educational services (tutorial classes ...).

In the Field of Cleaning and Environment:

1-Reconsidering cleaning, specially concerning shops and activities, and linking fees to the type of activity. Restaurants and juice shops are for example different from pharmacies and attorneyship offices.

2-Increasing garbage trucks in villages and districts.

3-Increasing supervision on cleaning companies working in cities.

4-Preventing burning garbage inside or near residential blocks, and reoperating current and closed garbage burners.

5-Preventing using garbage in covering underground waterways.

6-Following up the implementation of waste recycling projects and giving them a priority in allocations.

7-Coordinating with schools, mosques, churches, charities and health units to carry out education campaigns to get citizens at home with the cleaning issue, and make all people be sure that (Cleanliness is next to godliness).

8-Offering a prize for the cleanest street or unit.

9-Hanging posters campaigning for cleanliness and preservation of environment.

10-Encouraging planting trees and encouraging the popular role (ie project of a tree from every citizen).

11-Planting trees in roadsides and entrances and increasing the size of green areas in cities and villages.

12-Working for increasing the number of compressors of rice straws and straw recycling plants.

13-Preventing throwing sewerage in open waterways, especially irrigation canals, and firmly opposing this bad habit, affording local and sovereign resources, and encouraging popular efforts for sewerage projects and water distillation stations.

14-Increasing cleaning patrols and following up how far the big number of workers in these patrols is well-used.

Electricity and Lighting:

1-Bringing electricity to powerless regions.

2-Caring for street lighting, specially slum districts.

3-Curbing repeated power outage through periodical follow-up of maintenance.

Roads and transportation:

1-Covering irrigation canals inside residential blocks and using them as roads.

2-Increasing the length of paved streets inside local councils and renovating the damaged ones.

3-Regularly affording maintenance to-and paving-dusty roads and laying down a clear and fair plan for completing paving these roads.

4-Listing main roads that link governorate districts with regional rods that receive a distinguished care.

5-Working for establishing more roads and attempting to establish ring and circular roads around cities to solve the traffic jams.

6-Following up and updating local means of transport and developing stations.

Managing Local Resources:

1-Counting state properties inside local councils, demanding a rate of them from the governorate, and rationalizing allocations for projects that have a priority (sewerage-health units-schools-complexes of state bodies).

2-Periodically and realistically updating data bases and activating the role of information and national support centers.

3-Monitoring local funds and revenues local, and directing these resources to projects that have a priority, specially the unemployment problem.

4-Encouraging, facilitating and directing popular efforts for establishing public interest projects with continuous revenues.

5-Using all available resources and local capabilities in creating a real human development inside local councils.

Youth Centers:

1-Working for breathing new life into these important bodies and expanding membership in them.

2-Encouraging honorable competition between youth centers inside every unit and centerwide in various sports and cultural fields and in serving society in the local council.

3-Involving youth centers in voluntary projects of the abolition of illiteracy.

4-Making youth centers take part in education campaigns, establishing human development courses and targeted entertainment, training on establishing minor projects, training on using new technology means, self-management, planning, developing handicrafts and technical talents and encouraging creativeness and technology clubs.

5-Holding sports competitions in all sports.

6-Affording efficient and specialized sports coaches to care for training in all activities.

7-Holding cultural and religious competitions.

8-Holding religious, educational and political seminars (making people aware of constitutional and legal rights and duties and social problems).

9-Encouraging artistic creativeness in various aspects (drawing-calligraphy-singing-theatre-poetry) and seeking specialized mentors in these fields.

Tackling Social Problems:

1-Contiuously campaigning against dangers of drugs, and allocating days for campaigning against dangers of drugs and smoking.

2-Encouraging young men to seek marriage through organizing mass weddings.

3-Urging good people, businessmen and well-to-do people to establish funds for helping those who can "t afford money to get married.

4-Forming and activating traditional mediation meetings to help solve disputes between citizens.

5-Coordinating with concerned authorities to working for solving problems, fighting negative social aspects and encouraging positive aspects that Islam call for.

Preaching, Guidance and Endowments:

1-Seeking an aura of positive coexistence among religions and respecting the other through joint cooperation programs.

2-Cooperating with preaching and guidance institutions to realize objectives of this program, due to religion "s effect on souls.

3-Coordinating to establish education convoys to remote regions and slums in all social issues, and fighting negative and destructive aspects, spreading values of virtue and development, and preserving public resources and cleaning environment.

4-Monitoring the work of the endowments administrations in fields of Da "wa, following up periodical lessons in endowments-affiliated mosques.

5-Encouraging volunteers in religious education and providing them with issues related to local councils, according to specialization of every one.

6-Focusing on Kuttab (religious schools) and holding annual parties to honor Holy Quran memorizers.

7-Preserving houses of worship to carry out of their roles.

8-Calling for restoring Islamic endowments and repaying them according to legal rules.

Charities:

1-Monitoring charities and how far they carry out their role in serving the local community, and overcoming obstacles that prevent them from carrying out objectives for which they have been established.

2-Encouraging establishing charities that care for environment and health affairs and activating current ones.

3-Benefiting Zakat committees to tackle social problems (widows-orphans-homeless - handicapped).

Drinking Water and Sewerage:

1-Completing bringing drinking water to all deprived regions.

2-Rennovating and consolidating networks in overpopulated regions.

3-Continuously monitoring water distillation plants inside the local unit.

4-Curbing repeated water outage, following up a regular maintenance and seeking solutions for permanent problems.

5-Demanding digging deep wells on main tank of delta to contribute to solving the drinking water problem.

6-Calling for accelerating the implementation of sewerage networks and establishing required distillation water plants in villages.

7-Preventing digging deep wells so that groundwater doesn "t get polluted and tightening supervision on sewerage into waterways.

8-Establishing sewerage projects in every big village.

9-Organizing people "s treatment with sewerage networks.

10-Continuously campaigning for saving water.

11-Cmpaigning against polluting waterways through throwing remains and punishing any one doing this.

Construction Planning:

1-Listing intermediate spaces, defining borders of the construction space and cordons of villages and cities, taking into consideration public and citizens "interest during the periodical follow-up of construction plans of villages.

2-Encouraging substitution and renovation operations of old houses and offering incentives.

3-Giving consideration to suitably widening streets during substitution and renovation operations.

4-Calling for increasing vertical rise of buildings in villages to preserve agricultural lands.

5-Internal organization of cities, seeking appropriate places for stations and specific places for pedlars.

6-Directing construction planning programs to benefiting from the desert.

The Bread:

1-Tightening local supervision on bakeries to secure a good production of bread.

2-Separating distribution from production and increasing the number of distribution outlets.

3-Working for increasing flour quota of every local unit.

Service Facilities:

1-Working for establishing a services complex in every administrative unit to include (post office-subsidies office-civil registry-social unit .. etc).

2-Developing work methods in places of addressing public services.

Agriculture and Irrigation

1-Working for regularly bringing irrigation water with appropriate amounts to lands inside the local unit through following up concerned bodies.

2-Cooperating with agricultural societies inside the local unit to make farmers be at home with the optimum agricultural policy and optimum crop structure.

3-Carrying out convoys for agricultural guidance.

4-Continuously campaigning against risks of using insecticides, chemicals and hormones on health and cooperating with educational and religious institutions in this respect.

5-Holding veterinary convoys in various regions to preserve animal and poultry wealth and getting citizens acquainted with latest raising methods.

6-Working for strengthening irrigation network through lining and cleaning canals and allocating budgets for them.

7-Curbing the rural building problem through defining cordons of cities and villages to facilitate building in the desert and new lands and bringing services (roads, water, sewerage) to lands so that building on them becomes easier.

8-Continuously following up distributing farmers quotas of fertilizers, insecticides and seeds.

9-Working for supporting agricultural products and facilitating marketing agricultural products.

10-Campaigning for showing veterinary diseases and protection from them (bird flu and cow tuberculosis).

11-Legalizing seizure of reclaimed lands.

12-Fighting phenomenon of drying lakes and protecting them from pollution, and caring for projects caring for fish wealth.

Unemployment:

1-Encouraging non-governmental organizations to establish vocational training courses to qualify the unemployed.

2-The optimum use of the local unit "s funding in productive projects to employ as many jobless as possible.

3-Making feasibility studies for minor projects to spread them among the youth.

4-Benefitting from industrial cities in affording more job opportunities.

5-Affording funds for supporting minor projects.

6-Making programs for vocational training to increase job opportunities and to encourage minor projects.

7-Laying down a map for investment and encouraging curbing unemployment in various regions in a balanced and fair manner, taking into consideration the economic benefits from projects.

8-Tackling problems of unemployment among young men, specially those having degrees, and allocating quotas for young men in agricultural reform projects and new construction societies, and encouraging facilitated lending in the way that encourages the youth start their projects without leading to hurting the allocation of resources.

Disaster, Crisis Management:

1-Establishing a fund for disasters to compensate victims.

2-Establishing work groups to deal with emergency crises in cooperation with various authorities.

3-Holding a maintenance to various emergency systems (rescue cars, extinguishers, ambulances,).

Women's Role

1-In the field of health and environment: giving a priority to reinforcing preventive programs that improves women "s health and increasing women" s awareness about environmental dangers and their repercussions on health of the family members.

2-In the economic field: giving a priority to the problem of poverty and working for reducing poverty and its effects on women, specially in rural areas, through affording appropriate job opportunities and training for women, and expanding establishing minor projects and Family-Run Small Businesses.

3-Putting and implementing a development cultural plan that aims to clarify the right religious concept towards the role of the Muslim woman, the importance of her education and her social participation through seeking help from various social bodies, including feminist societies, clerics, public figures , popular leaders, chiefs of organizations, party officials, the media ... etc.

4-Helping women in achieving a balance between their family role and her productive role through affording a group of social services: kindergartens, house services institutions ... etc. Studies proved that affording public facilities in poor regions contributed to increasing women "s chances to work full time and part time jobs.

This is our program on the level of governorates. We offer it to you, promising Allah-Glorified and Exalted be He-to exert our utmost efforts to achieve your hopes. With you and through your support, hopes and wishes will turn into facts on the ground.

Let "s truly support those on the right track. Let" s do our duty.

Allah is the greatest. Praise be to Allah

---------- Post added February-6th-2011 at 01:55 PM ----------

Sorry to continue with the Brotherhood stuff but just got a note on facebook from my friend that I feel like I should share about the nature of the protests.

After being in and out of Tahrir Square regularly since the demonstrations started on the 25th of January, and spending a whole night talking to members of my local neighborhood watch - I decided to take last Wednesday off from 'Tahrir Duty' and rest for a day.

Halfway through the day, as a friend passed by, we watched in amazement with the rest of the world while thugs on horses and camels broke into what had so far been the world's most peaceful revolution.

It was silly. I know people got hurt. But it was downright silly. We laughed at how clearly desperate the regime had become.

Then the mob of hired thugs showed up. We continued to watch for a while. Bit by bit the news said that the demonstrators in Tahrir were now surrounded on all sides by Pro-Mubarak thugs. This worried us, since it seemed that even if things got really bad, and even if our friends had any intention of escaping (and they don't) they would not be able to.

And then we saw the molotovs. At one point, I kept count, and counted over 18 molotovs being thrown into Tahrir by the thugs (who we later found out were part hired thugs, part members of the National 'Democratic' Party, and part Plain-Clothed Police Officers).

Molotovs.

In our minds, it now looked brutally ugly, our friends were surrounded and were about to be torched. The scenario that played out in our heads was that the surrounding throngs would slowly wear them out, the circles would close in and the molotovs would continue. It wasn't a pretty picture to imagine. We feared an absolute massacre, a final reminder by an endangered regime that they were not to be reckoned with, that they were not concerned with even the appearance of being civilized. That despite Mubarak's second speech, the decision had been made to 'remind' us who's Boss.

We were very, very, frightened. More so because as we felt obliged to go join our friends (in what we full well believed could be a brutal, final, and possibly successful massacre) we were also told that there were groups of thugs blocking all the streets leading up to Tahrir, so we might not even make it there. Making our attempt at solidarity all the more futile.

But it was harder to watch this unfold on tv than it was to go to Tahrir. So we left.

As we arrived at Kasr El Nil bridge, leading to Tahrir, we found ourselves in the middle of a group of around 500 'Pro-Mubarak' protesters - and in the middle of a rain of stones - we got through, but that's a story for another day, since the purpose of this piece is a conversation I had when we finally got inside Tahrir Square.

As my friend found some of his friends, I was stopped by a small group of fellow demonstrators who asked me how things were on Kasr El Nil - so we started to chat. Two of them were fully bearded Islamic men, one older, the other younger, the other two in the group just seemed like totally 'normal' people.

The older Muslim man and I had the following conversation - I might paraphrase a bit, but this is basically what was spoken:

Muslim: I have to tell you this. I owe you an apology. A great apology.

Me: Huh? What for?

Muslim: Before...before - I had...I'm sorry to say this - but I had contempt for people like you. I saw you as a young, irresponsible generation. Internet youth educated in English language universities with nothing on your minds but sex and drugs and the internet....so I didn't come when you started this. I didn't come at the start. But I came on the 4th day, to see what's going on here. And...this is great. This is great what you're doing here! I used to think that we would be the ones to do something like this! That it was up to us, the people of God to spark a change! That it was our job, our task! But...we did not make this thing! We did not lead this thing. I am here behind you, not before you!

The man was on the verge of crying as he spoke. I was a bit dumbstruck, but before I could say anything - he continued:

Muslim: And there is a lesson in this! There is a great lesson in this from God himself! Can you tell what it is? Can you?

Me (dumbstruck still): I'm not sure? No? Tell me?

Muslim: I was vain! God taught me a great lesson! I used to think that since I had chosen God that God would choose me! Would choose me to do what had to be done! Would choose us to make a change! But now I know the truth! It is not ours to choose who does what! It is God's choice and God's choice only! And God chose you! God chose you! I've come to realize this! And it has made me feel very small!

And then he continued to thank me, and we hugged.

So yeah, regarding the Brotherhood...

[twa]

Being a divine instrument can be a very good thing...or very bad

depends on the hand guiding it.

[Larry]

Since there is a lot of discussion about the Muslim Brotherhood I figured I would post their 2008 platform. I don't see a whole lot that indicates anything other then a conservative party. Maybe someone else can point something out.

Admittedly, I've only read a screen or two.

Heck, that's not a conservative party. They're a bunch of bleepin liberals. They want infrastructure, and education, and health care.

[visionary]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#2018: Nariman, a protester in Cairo's Tahrir Square, tells the BBC: Most people would be happy to be represented by anyone, because there is consensus on all the demands.

#2024: Leading opposition figure Mohamed ElBaradei describes the negotiations as "opaque". "Nobody knows who is talking to whom at this stage," he says. "The process is managed by the outgoing regime without the involvement of the new opposition... or the rest of the people. It is managed by Vice President Suleiman and it is all managed by the military."

#2038: BBC Arab Affairs Analyst Magdi Abdelhadi says the protesters have gained in confidence and feel that the street protests have so far paid off. They also say that the opposition leaders who are talking to the government are only representing themselves, not the demonstrators.

#2045: The BBC's Jim Muir says it would be a mistake to think that with the government-opposition talks beginning, the steam is going out of the protests. Sunday has been one of the most important days so far, he says, with a huge turnout in Tahrir Square despite it being a cold and wet day. He says there was a palpable mood of optimism and a very relaxed atmosphere.

#2053: Professor Charles Tripp, a Middle East expert at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London, tells the BBC that talking about constitutional change was the easy bit of these talks. "Talking about the departure of Mubarak goes to the heart of the whole affair," he said. "It's not just symbolic, that Mubarak symbolises everything, but what they are really doing is testing the inheritors of Mubarak... can they really divest themselves of the very person that they support?"

#2125: Sally Sami tweets: Exit point from #tahrir at omar makram, military officers refuse exit of cameras and laptops except with negotiations

#2136: Sandmonkey tweets: The people have a stage and a PA system set-up, there are stations for mobile charging, food vendors, people form all walks of life

[DRSmith]

Seems Palin believes that it should not be up to the people of Egypt to decide on their government

Remember President Reagan lived that mantra: Trust but verify," she said. "We want to be able to trust those who are screaming for democracy there in Egypt, that there is a true sincere desire for freedoms. And the challenge that we have, though, is how do we verify that what we are told, what it is that the American public are being fed via media, via protesters, via the government there in Egypt in order for us to have some sound information to make wise decisions on what our position is."

On the question of "who's going to fill the void" after Mubarak leaves office, Palin said "Is it going to be the Muslim Brotherhood? We should not stand for that, or with that, or by that."

She told the interviewer, "Any radical Islamists, no, that is not who we should be supporting or standing by. So we need to find out who was behind all the turmoil and the revolt and the protests so that good decisions can be made in terms of who we will stand by and support

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/05/palin-obamas-3-a-m-call-went-to-answering-machine/#more-145843

[Larry]

Free advice to the Egyptian military:

Wait a while. Move in when the protesters go home to watch the Super Bowl.

[visionary]

The media has been noting today that there are still reporters and others being kidnapped and detained and beaten.

I've heard it pointed out at least once today that more and more it seems to be the military and military police doing this now.

(the detainments at least, not sure about beatings)

In other news, the protests in Alexandria started out today in the low thousands and eventually by evening reached over 100,000 and more from the addition of people joining in after work. So it isn't just Cairo where the crowd is going strong despite everything.

[jpyaks3]

The media has been noting today that there are still reporters and others being kidnapped and detained and beaten.

I've heard it pointed out at least once today that more and more it seems to be the military and military police doing this now.

(the detainments at least, not sure about beatings)

In other news, the protests in Alexandria started out today in the low thousands and eventually by evening reached over 100,000 and more from the addition of people joining in after work. So it isn't just Cairo where the crowd is going strong despite everything.

Military/Police have also been "detaining" foreigners of all kinds for questioning. It seems like a little bit of intimidation, but it has definitely expanded beyond just journalists as foreigners are being arrested and questioned then released.

[visionary]

Live coverage on Al Jazeera has been on for a while now this morning.

Today there's a huge funeral going on in Tahrir for the Egyptian journalist who was shot and killed while on his balcony taking pictures.

There's an awful lot of people there once again and it seems as if more and more people planning on staying, by the increasing number of tents being set up there.

In other news they were saying this morning on Al Jazeera that only a few opposition leaders have been included in the "talks" with the VP and that so far it seems as if the folks included have been ones that the government likely sees as weaker and easier to manipulate for one reason or another. (this was part of a discussion between an analyst and an opposition member)

Some other news from this morning:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/06/live-blog-feb-7-egypt-protests

11:26pm Al Jazeera's Folly Bah Thibault interviews Maged Reda Boutros, a member of ruling NDP on January 29. Boutros keeps referring to the protestors as "mobs of looters" and "setting fire to our beloved Cairo", despite pictures on the screen that showed peaceful protesters.

OaWu7UOwI8A

From BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

#0809: The BBC's Jon Leyne in Cairo says: "For the moment the talks between the government and the opposition do not seem to be going anywhere. There is a stalemate and there are two kinds of pillars to this: one of President Mubarak not going anywhere, and the other of the protesters not going anywhere. There is an illusion growing that normal life is returning to Cairo, but I can tell you it is not very normal. Yes, shops and banks are reopening to a limited extent, but I walked along one of the capital's main thoroughfares - the Corniche al-Nil - and outside the information ministry there are 18 pieces of heavy armour, including battle tanks. This is not a city that's going back to normal life any time soon."

#0833: Keen to get traffic moving around Tahrir Square, the army tried earlier to further reduce the area the anti-government protesters are occupying, according to the Reuters news agency. Many demonstrators rushed out of their tents to stop them. "The army is getting restless and so are the protesters. The army wants to squeeze us into a small circle in the middle of the square to get the traffic moving again," said Mohamed Shalaby.

#0952: The BBC's Jon Leyne in Cairo says: "There's an active stand-off outside a forbidding government building on the edge of Tahrir Square, the Mugamma, where people go to get official paperwork processed. The government tried to reopen it by using a back entrance, but the protesters have formed a human chain to stop people entering. They are in a face-off with some soldiers, but the army has been instructed not to use force so it is resulting in deadlock - symptomatic of the whole country."

#0859: Google's head of marketing for the Middle East, Wael Ghonim, who went missing in Egypt more than a week ago, is expected to be released by the authorities on Monday afternoon, a friend of his family and a prominent businessman say. On Sunday, telecoms tycoon Naguib Sawaris told state television that he had been promised that Mr Ghonim would be freed at 1600 (1400 GMT). Before his family lost contact with him on 28 January, Mr Ghonim posted several comments about the unrest on his Twitter page. The Wall Street Journal reports that the Google executive played a prominent role in the online activism which sparked the mass protests, including running a Facebook page urging support and setting up the official campaign website of the opposition figure, Mohamed ElBaradei.

#1018: Tahrir Square has taken on a carnival mood in the past few days as the anti-government demonstrators try to establish an enduring presence, according to the Associated Press. Two rows of men greet people at the main entrance, clapping as they enter, and chanting in the rhythms of a tradition Egyptian wedding procession. "We are becoming bigger!" they shout. "God is Great!" Inside the square, there are musicians and poets performing, and street vendors selling all manner of goods - from crisps to socks.

#1108: The Guardian is reporting that German newspapers are full of speculation that President Mubarak might seek exile in the country where he was treated in hospital last year. Ruprecht Polen, a senior politician from Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU party, said the government would allow the 82 year old return for treatment "if only for humanitarian reasons". The suggestion provoked an angry response from a leader of the opposition Green Party, Juergen Tritten. "Egyptians expect us to help them in their transition towards democracy. They certainly don't expect us to offer a fallen despot help in fleeing his country," he said.

#1058: Marwan Muasher, a deputy prime minister of Jordan who now works at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, tells the New York Times that he thinks Egyptian Vice-President Omar Suleiman will take the lead in easing President Mubarak out. "I think Suleiman will try to do it in a soft way, if you want," he says. "If that doesn't work, I think there will come a time when he will be told bluntly."

#1111: Matthew Cassel tweets: "Journalists now have to register with #Egypt's Ministry of Information if they wish to enter Tahrir -> not good"

from yesterday:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/06/live-blog-feb-7-egypt-protests

[JMS]

Admittedly, I've only read a screen or two.

Heck, that's not a conservative party. They're a bunch of bleepin liberals. They want infrastructure, and education, and health care.

I liked the part about helping a woman achieve balance between her family role and her "productive role" by promoting kindengarden, house services institutions ... etc

I agree from what is posted they've basically usurped FDR's new deal. No where in their does it talk about Sharia law, the Koran, or recreating the Caliphate across all muslim nations.

Coarse then it doesn't really talk about the Brotherhoods core policies either.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 03:10 PM ----------

I heard this morning that the Talks between the United States and the demonstrators never included Mubaric resigning. Heard Obama this morning say that the best way to ensure a democratic egypt was to allow Mubaric to stay until the elections in six-seven months. then an orderly transistion to democratic instititions.

Genius.

Also heard the brotherhood hasn't been included in the Egyptian VP's talks with the demonstrators. Trying to isolate them from the beginning.