Predicto Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Per MSNBC: New Egyptian VP blaming Muslim Brotherhood for uprising/violence. Wow. Never saw that one coming. This is so classic. Send in the thugs to bust some heads, then tell everyone that only you can restore order. ---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 01:59 PM ---------- Generic question, here: I'm seeing a lot of "pro-Mubaric protesters did this" and "anti-Mubaric protesters did this" and "Thugs working for so-and-so did this". How anybody is able to determine which "side" is doing what is . . . ? I imagine that it is pretty obvious to Egyptians who are there, who speak the language and observe the behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 #2002: BBC Arabic Correspondent Khaled Ezzelarab says military police have arrested representatives of both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 It's laughable that Mubarak and the government keep calling for people to let them enact a peaceful transition while they're still spreading violence, kidnapping, and lies against protesters and reporters and human rights groups. How could anyone possibly trust them while they do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Mubarak's crossed a line by throwing American journalists in jail. Obama needs to demand that they at least be released to American transport aircraft to get them safely out of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/03/egypt-crisis-more-injuries-reported-in-cairos-tahrir-square/?hpt=T1&iref=BN1 [update 9:45 p.m. in Cairo, 2:45 p.m. ET] Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak told ABC's Christiane Amanpour that he is fed up and wants to resign but fears the country will descend into chaos, the reporter said Thursday after an exclusive interview with Mubarak.Mubarak told Amanpour his government is not to blame for the violence in Tahrir Square over the last few days. Instead, he blamed the Muslim Brotherhood, a political party that has been banned in Egypt. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #2019: Egyptian police arrest seven youth leaders of the protests in Tahrir Square shortly after they visited Mohamed ElBaradei, their families told AFP. Egyptian anti-government demonstrators gather at Cairo's Tahrir square on Thursday. Al Jazeera is saying that there is a day-long curfew tomorow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Well, if the US is already telling Mubarik to get out, right now, or else, he probably isn't concerned about how we feel about him, any more. I'd also assert that it's certainly conceivable that Mubarik isn't ordering this. Seems to me that if I were, say, a member of the secret police for the last 20 years, then I might be justifiably concerned for my life expectancy if the regime falls. And nobody's offering me a villa on the Riveria if I'll leave. Mubarik might have a Golden Parachute waiting for him. But the rest of the regime under him might very well be feeling like cornered rats, right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Well, if the US is already telling Mubarik to get out, right now, or else, he probably isn't concerned about how we feel about him, any more. I'd also assert that it's certainly conceivable that Mubarik isn't ordering this. Seems to me that if I were, say, a member of the secret police for the last 20 years, then I might be justifiably concerned for my life expectancy if the regime falls. And nobody's offering me a villa on the Riveria if I'll leave. Mubarik might have a Golden Parachute waiting for him. But the rest of the regime under him might very well be feeling like cornered rats, right now. It's possible, but I think it's pretty telling that after two days of attacks and kidnappings on the media, the VP came out today and attacked them verbally in his speech as well. Also the US State Department seems pretty certain that the Interior Ministry is involved. So there is at least some sort of coordination going on by the government behind this. It's possible that the government is split on this somehow, but they're mostly saying the same things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I'm calling it now: this is going to end the same way as the Green Revolution in Iran. Disappointment. Mubarak is in complete control. He rode it out and the protesters don't have the power to take him on head on. They have the power to rock the boat but come up just short of tipping it over. And there's no way he's leaving power in September. Edit: Though the role of the US is a wildcard here. Obviously they could do nothing about Iran. Not really. Here they have more sway. I still don't see it happening though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I'm calling it now: this is going to end the same way as the Green Revolution in Iran. Disappointment. Mubarak is in complete control. He rode it out and the protesters don't have the power to take him up on head on. They have the power to rock the boat but come up just short of tipping it over. And there's no way he's leaving power in September. Tomorrow is going to tell whether thats true or not. I have a feeling they will be able to throw him out there is a unified country against him and they are not afraid. I am putting my bets in with the Egyptian people on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Tomorrow is going to tell whether thats true or not. I have a feeling they will be able to throw him out there is a unified country against him and they are not afraid. I am putting my bets in with the Egyptian people on this. I hope you're right buddy. The failure of the Green Revolution was just devestating. Now you have Iran rubber-stamping executions. If Mubarak isn't toppled it's going to get even uglier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 The military's a big wild card in this case. Nobody expected the Iranian military to overtly side with the Green Revolution. There have been rumors that the Egyptian military is pressuring Mubarak to leave, and is considering moving in favor of the protesters if the violence continues for too long. Just rumors, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #2106: Mamdou Hamza, a professor of civil engineering in Cairo, tells the BBC he has seen local human rights activists being beaten up and driven off in a police van. #2114: Al Jazeera's Dan Nolan tweets: "Two Al Jazeera journos went missing for 6 hrs today- now been found although beaten up. Jazeera won't stop reporting story but re-assessing safety for us." #2122: The BBC's Paul Adams in Washington on Hosni Mubarak's ABC interview: "The interview puts at least one of the rumours sweeping Cairo over the past week to rest: President Mubarak's son, Gamal, has not left the country but remains in the presidential palace with his father. But since it's now clear that Gamal, like his father, does not intend to run for office in September, this is now less relevant than it once was. Of more importance is the insight gained into the defiant mood of Egypt's embattled leader. He insists that President Obama has not asked him to leave office immediately and he expresses a degree of remorse about the violence raging on the streets of Cairo. So is he really in the palace? I wonder how long he'll stay there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 The military's a big wild card in this case. Nobody expected the Iranian military to overtly side with the Green Revolution. There have been rumors that the Egyptian military is pressuring Mubarak to leave, and is considering moving in favor of the protesters if the violence continues for too long. Just rumors, of course. Yeah you're right. But the US has enormous sway with the Egyptian military. I'm not sure people understand how closely they work together. I remember pulling airfield guard duty at Fort Hood and having Egyptian officer after Egyptian officer come through. Everyday. There's a big relationshop there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Yeah you're right. But the US has enormous sway with the Egyptian military. I'm not sure people understand how closely they work together. I remember pulling airfield guard duty at Fort Hood and having Egyptian officer after Egyptian officer come through. Everyday. There's a big relationshop there. You say "but" as if you think the relationship means it's more likely that Mubarak will stay in power. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the White House wants him gone ASAP. Obviously the strategic considerations regarding Israel and hardcore Islamists are still in play, but I doubt the close ties make it more likely Mubarak will stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 You say "but" as if you think the relationship means it's more likely that Mubarak will stay in power. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the White House wants him gone ASAP. Obviously the strategic considerations regarding Israel and hardcore Islamists are still in play, but I doubt the close ties make it more likely Mubarak will stay. I just meant that you're right BUT my point still stands as the US has sway over the military (that didn't exist in Iran during the Green Revolution). The Egyptian military definitely has the most power here though and I would hope that our military's relationship with them is pushing them in the right direction: ousting Mubarak. ---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 06:06 PM ---------- Sorry if my posts are muddled. I'm writing them word by word on the cell, in my car, sitting in traffic, bored out of my mind (God I'm so tired of hearing the radio talk about Snyder for 12 straight hours). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #2156: Egypt's Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq says the interior minister should not obstruct peaceful marches on Friday, in comments translated by Reuters. Very interesting. #2152: Carl Bildt, Swedish Foreign Minister tweets: "Intense contacts on situation for Swedish journalists Cairo. One seriously injured and under treatment at hospital. Embassy working hard." #2206: Amnesty International confirms two of its workers are under arrest after a raid by the military police on the Hisham Mubarak Law Centre, and calls for their immediate release. ------------------- Just saw someone on BBC telling the protesters to go home and let things go back to normal. (I keep hearing people use the same language to say it too) Why do people keep blaming the protesters for shutting down the Egyptian economy? They're mainly in one place and not causing most of the chaos. There's nothing to stop the government from making things go back to normal on the most part. (although tomorrow things might be different). I'm getting tired of the government telling the protesters to go back home and stop hurting the country. In any case, I don't see how they can go anywhere until the violence and kidnappings/arrests stop. Watching CNN, it seems that state tv is turning a lot of people against the foreign media too. Fishermen in Alexandria are yelling and taking out their anger at journalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 I'm calling it now: this is going to end the same way as the Green Revolution in Iran. Disappointment. Mubarak is in complete control. He rode it out and the protesters don't have the power to take him on head on. They have the power to rock the boat but come up just short of tipping it over. And there's no way he's leaving power in September. Mubaric has said he nor his son are running in the next election. The demonstrators have already won. At least those who want democracy have won. What's going on now is whether democracy wins, or a new despot wins. Just saw this, evidently the Moslem Brotherhood thinks they have a pretty good shot at power. Muslim Brotherhood wants end to Egypt-Israeli peace deal Egypt's banned Muslim Brotherhood movement has unveiled its plans to scrap a peace treaty with Israel if it comes to power, a deputy leader said in an interview with NHK TV. Rashad al-Bayoumi said the peace treaty with Israel will be abolished after a provisional government is formed by the movement and other Egypt's opposition parties. "After President Mubarak steps down and a provisional government is formed, there is a need to dissolve the peace treaty with Israel," al-Bayoumi said. http://en.rian.ru/world/20110203/162433368.html Which to me sounds a lot like the old German saying from Hogan's Hero's, "He will have a fair trial, and then afterwards he will be shot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/03/egypt-army-moves-in-as-pr_n_817935.html#429_all-video-feed-cut-from-tahrir-square- The New York Times reports that there is no longer any livefeed coming out of Tahrir Square, saying: By evening, it appeared that none of the major broadcasters were able to provide live footage of Tahrir Square, the epicenter of antigovernment protests. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya television networks said their journalists had been hounded from the street and from the vantage points above the square where cameras had been placed, and both CNN and BBC appeared to be relying only on taped footage of the square. Jon Williams of the BBC said via Twitter that Egyptian security had seized the news agency’s equipment from the Cairo Hilton “in an attempt to stop us broadcasting.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/03/egypt-army-moves-in-as-pr_n_817935.html#428_abc-news-producer-threatened-with-beheading- ABC producer Brian Hartman was threatened with beheading by a group of men, as he reported:Just escaped after being carjacked at a checkpoint and driven to a compound where men surrounded the car and threatened to behead us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/03/egypt-army-moves-in-as-pr_n_817935.html#429_all-video-feed-cut-from-tahrir-square- Given all the shinahnagans going on which seem pretty clear being instigated by the government. I wonder if the Moslem brotherhood wants an end to the Israeli peace deal could also be faked. I was looking for it on reputable source and haven't seen it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Mubaric has said he nor his son are running in the next election. The demonstrators have already won. At least those who want democracy have won. What's going on now is whether democracy wins, or a new despot wins.Just saw this, evidently the Moslem Brotherhood thinks they have a pretty good shot at power. Which to me sounds a lot like the old German saying from Hogan's Hero's, "He will have a fair trial, and then afterwards he will be shot". Are you still going on about the Muslim Brotherhood? The protesters have been given nothing yet. As far as we know this is all a delaying tactic by the government. We need to stop focusing on possible scary futures by the Muslim Brotherhood who have been doing nothing against the Egyptian people and focus on the guys who are slaughtering their own people and spitting on the human rights of journalists every day. So far the government and their thugs have proven to be a thousand times more like Iran than the Brotherhood. (sorry if I'm getting a little emotional here, this situation is starting to wear on me) I still don't trust the Brotherhood all that much either, but I just think there's more pressing things to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Mubaric has said he nor his son are running in the next election. The demonstrators have already won. At least those who want democracy have won. What's going on now is whether democracy wins, or a new despot wins. You have no idea if this is the case. How would it be any better if Mubarak agrees not to run again, and instead sets up another sham election where 95% of the "vote" is cast for, say, head of the secret police, and nothing else changes? They want Mubarak out now because they don't trust him to actually allow free elections - and they have every reason to think that given Mubarak's past record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 Are you still going on about the Muslim Brotherhood? "going on"? Yeah little things like wanting to dominate the entire Moslem world and recreate the Caliphate along fundimental religous grounds, kind of stick in my mind. Sorry to bring it up. Sorry to to bring up the deputy of the moslem brotherhood evidently saying he wants the 30 year peace deal with Israel repealed. I'm such a gloomy guss. The protesters have been given nothing yet. If bringing down the government and forcing the resignation of the 30 year despot can be called nothing. As far as we know this is all a delaying tactic by the government. Except the government has said it in the international press and the Egyptian President himself has stated it. Even going so far to say that neither he nor his son will run in the next election. Doesn't seem like a lot of wiggle room. We need to stop focusing on possible scary futures by the Muslim Brotherhood who have been doing nothing against the Egyptian people and focus on the guys who are slaughtering their own people and spitting on the human rights of journalists every day. No we really don't. Let's focus on the guys who if in power would screw everybody. Rather than the guys who have acted pretty responsible from our perspective for 30 years. Let's keep our eye on the best chance for Egypt to have a democracy. And deny chaos which would most benifit an organized minority who we know are not in Egypts short or long term interests. So far the government and their thugs have proven to be a thousand times more like Iran than the Brotherhood. The government is using strong armed tactics to restore order so an orderly transition of power can occur. That's in egypts best interest and it's in our best interest. Given what we know will surely happen if the immediate sucession of power occurs. ---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 06:00 PM ---------- You have no idea if this is the case. We have Mubaric saying so. The military which has shown they are not backing Mubaric here with a blind eye also heard that. I don't know any way Mubaric could make it more clear and simple. The date of the next election is only months away. He's not running, nor is his son. That doesn't mean the election won't be fixed, or that the same dudes won't try to put another Mubaric clone into office. But that's realy what should be concentrated on now by the protesters. Imediate turning over of power doesn't benifit anybody but the radicals. How would it be any better if Mubarak agrees not to run again, and instead sets up another sham election where 95% of the "vote" is cast for, say, head of the secret police, and nothing else changes? Agreed, so that's what should be being discussed... Although I would think the Iraqi Army, the United States, The UN and the EU would have something to say about it if that occured and I would think no despot could rule Egypt when faced with such opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I meant that you don't know that "What's going on now is whether democracy wins, or a new despot wins." I don't think that is clear at all. Not one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Put me down as yet another person who thinks that silencing all international journalists isn't a good sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 We have Mubaric saying so. The military which has shown they are not backing Mubaric here with a blind eye also heard that. I don't know any way Mubaric could make it more clear and simple. The date of the next election is only months away. He's not running, nor is his son. Which could happen or might not happen. No one should trust anything he says at this point. And even if it does happen, most people didn't really expect him to run again at his age. The part about his son is good news, if it proves to be true 7-8 months from now. No one trusts Mubarak or his cronies not to screw them over, or arrest, attack, or kill them in the time between now and then. The protesters are terrified that if they leave the square with Mubarak in power they will be hunted down. We've already seen what has been happening to the journalists and how the government has instigated it and fanned the flames on tv. I don't see how the protesters can stop with the way things are right now. I've seen them saying that right now Tarir square is the safest place in Cairo. I think it's kind of funny with everyone saying the protests need to stop when they aren't the ones causing most of this. The government needs to make changes now, before the protesters can feel safe enough to stop. Although they should be allowed to protest indefinitely if they want to. There shouldn't really be any pressure for them not to express themselves anyway. I would like to see them focus more on the future though. But right now it's a bit hard to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 The beatings will continue until morale improves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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