G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Why is the Muslim Brotherhood not designated as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization" by the U.S.? That seems like a pretty easy list to get on. And ftr, I'm not trumpeting the Muslim Brotherhood or supporting them or anything like that. I just feel like people are reaching and overreacting in fear or misunderstanding or whatever. And JMS, you're my ES history buddy but I couldn't disagree with you more here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Absolutely, Larry.Unfortuantely, we have to accept that when people get real democracy, there is a risk that sometimes they won't choose the leaders that we want them to. We have to hope that in the long run, democracy will be a liberalizing, modernizing influence.. If Mubaric leaves now, we won't get Democracy in Egypt. We will get another despot, who will carry on mass executions to solidify his power just like they did In Iran. Followed by Egypts going to war with Israel. Amounting in thousands of deaths and a cycle of continous wars for decades. The brotherhood doesn't want democracy. They want a fundimentalist suni rule. Democracy is our history, our culture, our ideal; it isn't Egypts... Especially not for the Brotherhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 The point of the Iraqi war was to keep Iraq from getting nukes and then giving those nukes to Al Quada.... The administrations clearly linked Iraq to 9/11 and this justified our invasion on the grounds of pre-emptive war to stop a greater more costly war. The fact that Iraq had no nukes and no intention to assist or aid Al Quada and was entirely not involved in 9/11 as it turned out after our invasion; invalidated this justification.. which means we went to war in Iraq for entirely invalid reasons. Bush's whole "democracies will spring up across the ME" after thought. Is horse hockey. These current demonstrations have nothing to do with Bush and Iraq and everything to do with a young man in Tunisia who couldn't find a job and lit himself on fire in protest of the plight of his generation... The young mans sacrifice resinating with the Arabs on the street. Has more to do with Bush's ethenol program which has caused food ( grain, wheat, and corn ) to go up globally; than Our invasion of Iraq. Really? That was worth calling me a dummy over? Thanks for editing though. Anyway, my understanding was that the whole WMD's/al Qaeda/etc thing was just something to sell the American people because war for democracy (and the resulting domino effect that they thought it would cause) wasn't a good sell. I thought that was widely acknowledged as the years went by. Where my confusion comes in is that now we are seeing democracy spread throughout the region and conservatives and Iraq War advocates are screaming about how it's a bad thing and an Iran 1979 deja vu (a comparison that--outside of overthrowing a dictator--I don't see at all.) And as I've said before, any transitional government has to be made up of people who guarantee that they will not be running for election when the time comes to put together the new government. I don't think a vote should be held today--not while emotions are so high--but later on down the road. When people can settle down, candidates and platforms can be put together and people can vote with knowledge rather than emotion. And outside foreign observers from whatever acceptable countries--not the U.S. in any way--will be on hand and given full access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Where my confusion comes in it that know we are seeing democracy spread throughout the region and conservatives and Iraq War advocates are screaming about how it's a bad thing and an Iran 1979 deja vu (a comparison that--outside of overthrowing a dictator--I don't see at all.) Agree. It has actually gotten quite comical in the right wing blogsphere this week. Bush wanted to see a spread of democracies. So did Republicans and conservatives in 2003. Now that its happening "oh noes the Muslim brotherhood!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Why is the Muslim Brotherhood not designated as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization" by the U.S.? That seems like a pretty easy list to get on. Because they aren't a terrorist organization. They denounced 9/11 for example. However they have consistantly called for violence against Israel. and have been involved in some pretty shaddy events in the passed. Egypt 47, and Syrai in the 1980's. And ftr, I'm not trumpeting the Muslim Brotherhood or supporting them or anything like that. I just feel like people are reaching and overreacting in fear or misunderstanding or whatever. And JMS, you're my ES history buddy but I couldn't disagree with you more here. I don't think I've said anything controversial.... or even questionable. The Brotherhood is the oldest fundimentalist Muslim organization who advocates a return to Sharia law and life centered around the Koran for people, community and the government. Not just for Egypt, or Arabs, but all of "Daris Islam" ( all muslim majority countries. ) The brotherhood has consistantly advocated for violence against Israel and the deputy leader of the organization today called for the end of the Israeli Egyptian peace treaty. I stated that should be among the first orders of business after the Mubaric government is toppled. What do you disagree with? You can read that much in the wikipedia synopsis of the groups overall goals and history. They are not the majorty of Egyptians, and they do not enjoy the backing of most Egytians, but they are the best organized and largest opposition group to the current regime. They would play an very important role in a El Baradei government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 If the majority of Egyptians don't want the Muslim Brotherhood in power, then what is problem? Obviously, Egyptian citizens aren't gonna put up with a regime that they don't want in power (look at how they're protesting and taking a stand right now). I guess I have more faith in the fact that the Egyptian citizens want a real democracy and won't stand for anything less than that in lieu of everything they're doing now to get these guys ousted. ---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 10:52 PM ---------- JMS: Because they aren't a terrorist organization. They denounced 9/11 for example. However they have consistantly called for violence against Israel. and have been involved in some pretty shaddy events in the passed. Egypt 47, and Syrai in the 1980's. Why do they consistently call for violence against Israel? Do they have issues w/ the way the Palestinians are being treated? I'm sorry, but I can understand that completely. I have a problem with that and I'm not a Muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Just as there's reason to be skeptical of any promises made by Mubaric Jesus Christ... JMS has somehow managed to infect Larry's spelling instincts... is there no God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Really? That was worth calling me a dummy over? Thanks for editing though. Sorry some of my first edits are pretty rough. what I say with a friendly twinkle in my eye comes across as really insulting in the written word medium. I strive not to insult anybody on this board especially not people who I know are thoughtful and really interested in exchanging ideas and contributing to an honest discussion.... My bad. Sorry you saw the first edit. Anyway, my understanding was that the whole WMD's/al Qaeda/etc thing was just something to sell the American people because war for democracy (and the resulting domino effect that they thought it would cause) wasn't a good sell. I thought that was widely acknowledged as the years went by. Yes after we invaded... Bush came out and said Iraq had nothing to do with 911. But that doesn't address the fact that on the eve of our invasion 70% of the american people thought Saddam had called the shots on 9/11. In the lead up to the war George Bush and his minions did everything they could to conflate Iraq with terrorism and Al Quada and 9/11. And it worked. 70% is more Americans than can tell you the historical significance of Perl Harbor to WWII. And tieing something to 9/11 in 2003 was like a red flag in front of a bull. The administration knew exactly what they were doing. Which is why I am one of their harsh critics. USA TODAY Sept 6 2003. We invaded just a few months before Late March, 2003 - May 1, 2003 Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm And as for the nukes... the book "legacy of Ashes" by Tim Weiner, the history of the CIA; makes a compelling case. After the first gulf war in the 1990's secretary of defense Dick Cheney was shocked to find out that Iraq had been only 1 year away from developing their first nuclear weapon. The CIA was totally wrong in their projections at the time. In the year 2001 when Cheney returned to Washington as the VP he was certain Iraq had completed that bomb. The CIA again told him they hadn't, But they had been so wrong in 1990's that Cheney dismissed everthing they said. Cheney was so certain they had the bomb solely based on where they were and his experence in the 1990's; he basically manufactured the case to support his certanty... Only he was wrong.... Clearly not everybody went to war for this reason. Some went to war for oil. some for military contracts, some for the defense of Israel; but in the biginning Cheney was likely the strongest most influencial of the neocons; and he went to war because of the bomb and sold it to the country via 9/11. Where my confusion comes in is that now we are seeing democracy spread throughout the region and conservatives and Iraq War advocates are screaming about how it's a bad thing and an Iran 1979 deja vu (a comparison that--outside of overthrowing a dictator--I don't see at all.) I am not a conservative. and I was one of the earlierst and most vocal opponents to the Iraq war and am one of George Bush's harshest and most consistant critics on this board. I would love to see a democracy come about in Egypt, even if that means the rule of the Moslem Brotherhood and all the troubles for the US that that entails. If that is the will of the Egyptian people.... which I don't believe it is..... However if Mubaric falls and chaos rules I have no doubt that the brotherhood or some army general would fill the gap, and Egyptians democratic hopes would be over. I really believe that. I sencerely believe that Egypts best hope for democracy is in a few more months of Mubaric rule and negotiations for international inspectors at the upcoming elections... Short of that we will get most likely another depot and very likely one bent on war with Israel. And as I've said before, any transitional government has to be made up of people who guarantee that they will not be running for election when the time comes to put together the new government. I don't think a vote should be held today--not while emotions are so high--but later on down the road. When people can settle down, candidates and platforms can be put together and people can vote with knowledge rather than emotion. And outside foreign observers from whatever acceptable countries--not the U.S. in any way--will be on hand and given full access. I do not believe a provisional government could rule Egypt. Egypt would decend in chaos because it is the interest of whomever wants to rise to power there to have it so. Order, predictability are the friends of democracy. Instability is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 This part for starters: If Mubaric leaves now, we won't get Democracy in Egypt. We will get another despot, who will carry on mass executions to solidify his power just like they did In Iran. Followed by Egypts going to war with Israel. Amounting in thousands of deaths and a cycle of continous wars for decades. As far as them wanting everyone to be Muslim and a return to Sharia: doesn't the Catholic Church want everyone to be Catholic? Don't Mormons send kids across the world to convert them? A lot of groups want a lot of things. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. And if they have denounced violence and haven't partaken in it in decades then what? They aren't even on the U.S.'s list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Here's how the decide who gets on that list: The Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism (S/CT) in the U.S. State Department continually monitors the activities of groups active around the world considered potentially terrorist to identify potential targets for designation. When reviewing potential targets, S/CT looks not only at the actual terrorist attacks that a group has carried out, but also at whether the group has engaged in planning and preparations for possible future acts of terrorism or retains the capability and intent to carry out such acts. So where is this fear coming from? They are a conservative Muslim group. Ok. That doesn't automatically make them terrorists. As far as Israel goes, that's not good. But as has been stated here repeatedly, they are not even close to a majority of the Egyptian people. They are a minority party who has denounced violence, who haven't been involved in any violence in decades, who haven't engaged in violence against Israel--Egypt's next-door neighbor--or during these protests. By all accounts they weren't even involved in these protests until Day 3 or so. They aren't driving this thing like Khomeni was in '79. Egyptian youths aren't out there dying because they want the government to be more religious--like in Iran in '79--or because they are anti-American--like in Iran in '79--or because they want to be more aggressive toward Israel. They want a modern country, with a modern economy, with opportunities to make something of their lives, to have freedom, democracy and be part of the world in the 21st Century. I have seen absolutely NOTHING to back up any of these fears about the Muslim Brotherhood hijacking this thing or for a perpetual state of war to result if Mubarak falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 From earlier: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/middleeast/04diplomacy.html?_r=2 The Obama administration is discussing with Egyptian officials a proposal for President Hosni Mubarak to resign immediately, turning over power to a transitional government headed by Vice President Omar Suleiman with the support of the Egyptian military, administration officials and Arab diplomats said Thursday. Even though Mr. Mubarak has balked, so far, at leaving now, officials from both governments are continuing talks about a plan in which Mr. Suleiman, backed by Lt. Gen. Sami Enan, chief of the Egyptian armed forces, and Field Marshal Mohamed Tantawi, the defense minister, would immediately begin a process of constitutional reform. The proposal also calls for the transitional government to invite members from a broad range of opposition groups, including the banned Muslim Brotherhood, to begin work to open up the country’s electoral system in an effort to bring about free and fair elections in September, the officials said. Senior administration officials said that the proposal was one of several options under discussion with high-level Egyptian officials around Mr. Mubarak in an effort to persuade the president to step down now. They cautioned that the outcome depended on several factors, not least Egypt’s own constitutional protocols and the mood of the protesters on the streets of Cairo and other Egyptian cities. Some officials said there was not yet any indication that either Mr. Suleiman or the Egyptian military was willing to abandon Mr. Mubarak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 If the majority of Egyptians don't want the Muslim Brotherhood in power, then what is problem? Obviously, Egyptian citizens aren't gonna put up with a regime that they don't want in power (look at how they're protesting and taking a stand right now). I guess I have more faith in the fact that the Egyptian citizens want a real democracy and won't stand for anything less than that in lieu of everything they're doing now to get these guys ousted Instability and chaos don't favor the disorganized majority. They favor the organized minority. It's always been thus. The folks who win the revolutions aren't the guys who start them but the guys who understand how to take full advantage of the void. The best hope of the majority is for elections to be held after a cooling down period and that is what Mubaric is offering.. Why do they consistently call for violence against Israel? Do they have issues w/ the way the Palestinians are being treated? I'm sorry, but I can understand that completely. I have a problem with that and I'm not a Muslim. It boils down to whether you think more violence on the nation vs nation scale is going to help settle the issue; or just further exasperate it. Do you think Egypt held back in their previous 4 wars with Israel where they got spanked? Do you think Egypt today has a better advantage over the Israeli's from 48, 56, 68, or 72? Sure the brotherhood thinks they have fine reasons to try to kill Israeli's... they also want about 20% of the worlds population to live under Sharia... I'm sure Israeli's think they have fine reasons for all the messed up stuff they do too.. Me I oppose both positions. Me I think tamping down the violence is the best way to grow moderates and get ourselves a deal. Not ratcheting up the violence because we've tried that approach for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 9.Egyptian youths aren't out there dying because they want the government to be more religious--like in Iran in '79--or because they are anti-American--like in Iran in '79--or because they want to be more aggressive toward Israel. They want a modern country, with a modern economy, with opportunities to make something of their lives, to have freedom, democracy and be part of the world in the 21st Century. I have seen absolutely NOTHING to back up any of these fears about the Muslim Brotherhood hijacking this thing or for a perpetual state of war to result if Mubarak falls. The only really anti-American stuff I've seen so far has been by Mubarak's supporters. (of course the government has done what they can to ramp up the anti-Americanism among the people the last few days) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Glad to hear Obama is asking for his removal. ---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 11:40 PM ---------- Instability and chaos don't favor the disorganized majority. They favor the organized minority. It's always been thus. The folks who win the revolutions aren't the guys who start them but the guys who understand how to take full advantage of the void.The best hope of the majority is for elections to be held after a cooling down period and that is what Mubaric is offering.. It boils down to whether you think more violence on the nation vs nation scale is going to help settle the issue; or just further exasperate it. Sure the brotherhood thinks they have fine reasons to kill Israeli's... they also want about 20% of the worlds population to live under Sharia... I'm sure Israeli's think they have fine reasons for all the messed up stuff they do too.. Bottom line, there will probably never be stability/peace in the ME. No matter who's in power of whatever country, somebody somewhere is always gonna have a problem with them. I think the best thing the U.S. can do is try to be as impartial as possible and stay the heck out of all the drama. For example, if we continue sending monetary support to Egypt while people like Mubarak are in power, then we lose the support of the average Egyptian citizens (the people I'm mainly concerned for). If we continue sending money to Israel, certain Muslims are gonna have problems with us. It's a lost cause. I think the more we meddle, the worse it gets over there. We should seriously reevaluate how we handle ME affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 This part for starters: Did you catch the part where the deputy leader of the brotherhood is calling to repeal the peace treaty with Israel? It's already starting. The brotherhood can not take power and hold it if the Egyptian army remains in tact. Their only way to secure their rule is to purge the officers corps. Same Same if an Egyptian general takes charge. He will have to solidify his power by purging his rivals. That's what the Russians, Cubans, and Iranians did. That's how a revolution works. As far as them wanting everyone to be Muslim and a return to Sharia: doesn't the Catholic Church want everyone to be Catholic? We did when we controled the known world. It was a grand time too. We reffer to it today as the DARK AGES.... since that time the Catholic Church has become a little more enlightenned. In 1963 we even had a church council Vatican Council II, the highest law in the church; which came to the conclusion that none Catholics could get into heaven.. which was mighty big of us.... Today we believe all people of faith can achieve gods grace.... Today it's just the pope who doesn't think that's true. And if they have denounced violence and haven't partaken in it in decades then what? They aren't even on the U.S.'s list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Here's how the decide who gets on that list: And if they don't denounce violence towards Israel and are actively calling to repeal the peace treaty... then what? That's the reality we live in, the one where they have selectively renounced violence and that selection is getting a lot more important. So where is this fear coming from? They are a conservative Muslim group. Ok. That doesn't automatically make them terrorists. The #2 in charge of Alquada was in the brotherhood. Al Quada too wants a return to the caliphate.... Maybe you are right that the brotherhood wants it in a hypothetical way. like mass concensus or something.... My point is nowhere in the brotherhoods goals is their anything about democracy or representation. nowhere in there is their something about peaceful coexistance with the west or Israel.... And screw them, they enjoy a small minority's support and I think it's dangerous as hell to give them any wiff of power; espcially since they have little ability to hold that power if a democracy was instilled. I trust them less than I trust Mubaric at this point. As far as Israel goes, that's not good. But as has been stated here repeatedly, they are not even close to a majority of the Egyptian people. They are a minority party who has denounced violence, who haven't been involved in any violence in decades, who haven't engaged in violence against Israel--Egypt's next-door neighbor--or during these protests. By all accounts they weren't even involved in these protests until Day 3 or so. They aren't driving this thing like Khomeni was in '79. Actually they are driving it exactly like Khomeni in 79... It's just not that old an insurection yet. I have seen absolutely NOTHING to back up any of these fears about the Muslim Brotherhood hijacking this thing or for a perpetual state of war to result if Mubarak falls. Then Truely GACOLB, you aren't looking very hard... Muslim Brotherhood seeks end to Israel treatyhttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/3/muslim-brotherhood-seeks-end-to-israel-treaty/ That's ominous as hell.... and what did 4 major wars in 25 years get Egypt... Nothing that's what.. ---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 11:53 PM ---------- Bottom line, there will probably never be stability/peace in the ME. No matter who's in power of whatever country, somebody somewhere is always gonna have a problem with them. 35 years of Peace between Egypt and Israel.... and you are suggesting peace is imposible; we shouldn't even work for it? Plan for it? Use what incluence we have to maintain it? I think the best thing the U.S. can do is try to be as impartial as possible and stay the heck out of all the drama. A fine sentiment... except for the fact if Egypt and ISrael go at it; it's very likely both will be using American weapons and ammunition. We are hip deep in it already.. can't clap ourselves out when we are most needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/04/egypt.protests/index.html?hpt=T1 Troops in riot gear patrol Cairo as demonstrators plan mass protests Cairo, Egypt (CNN) -- Troops wearing riot gear toted automatic weapons and stood guard in the area around Cairo's Tahrir Square early Friday, as anti-government demonstrators promised another day of large protests to demand President Hosni Mubarak's resignation.Security forces detained some people leaving the square, pointing guns at them and forcing them to lie on the ground. Others blocked the nearby October 6 bridge. A handful of pro-government protesters cheered as large vans filled with security forces arrived at the square around 6 a.m. (11 p.m. ET). It was unclear whether those inside were members of the military or police. CNN International seems to be having live Egypt coverage already, although I'm not seeing any pictures or video footage from Egypt. They are discussing the situation on the ground out there now. ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 02:14 AM ---------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #0700: The BBC's Jon Leyne says it's been a quieter night than previously in and around Cairo's Tahrir Square - the epicentre of the protests - though thousands of people did stay out overnight.#0701: Mosa'ab Elshamy tweets: "Breakfast now being distributed and shared. Families living in Tahrir are doing an amazing job in their solidarity." #0704: The BBC's Ian Pannell in Cairo describes how things stand: "This morning we are looking out on a scene where the army has come out in considerable force and there are no pro-Mubarak supporters to be seen at this point of time. The whole area occupied by those supporters is pretty much controlled by the military - they have put up cordons and set up barricades and it looks like they mean business about bringing some kind of order to this process.There have been people talking about marching on the presidential palace but I just don't think we are going to see that." #0709: The BBC's Jon Leyne says those closest to Mr Mubarak - Vice-President Omar Suleiman and Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq - seem unwilling to push him out. At the same time, the opposition appear unwilling to see a government run by anyone associated with the octogenarian president. ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 02:20 AM ---------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #0717: Abdel-Monem Said Ali, who runs an Egyptian think-tank connected with the governing National Democratic Party, gives the BBC World Service his view of increasingly firm pressure from the US for a transfer of power: "Washington is the last place that can give advice to anybody about political change in any country," he says. "We can look at Iraq and Afghanistan and see what they did with these two countries. Egypt will change, democratise, and be a democratic country within a few months." ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 02:31 AM ---------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #0723: The British-Egyptian actor Khalid Abdalla, who's been in Tahrir Square in recent days, has told the BBC that the there are more opposition protesters than ever, even though state TV has been turning people against the demonstrators: "The propaganda that's coming from state television seems to be doing a lot of work and... people here are finding it very hard to get information which is true. People in the square are getting calls from people outside the square who they know, saying 'what are you doing here?' There are even reports we're receiving five star food from the hotels around us, and Kentucky Fried Chicken are giving us all sorts of things, that we are in the pay and get fifty dollars a day from God knows who." #0729: Wael Hassan, a dentist who has been delivering medical supplies in central Cairo, tells BBC World: "Tahrir Square is all sealed now, there's only the main entrance open. I see long queues of people waiting to get in, but the army is not letting anyone - they don't know if they are protesters or government thugs." He also said that the understanding today is that government thugs will go inside and try to blend in with protesters and then attack from within That's disturbing...if true. ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 02:40 AM ---------- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/03/fidel-castro-hosni-mubara_n_818413.html Fidel Castro has joined the ranks of world leaders to comment on Egypt's deadly anti-government violence, going so far as to suggest that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is finished.The 84-year-old former dictator took to his blog Feb. 3, offering the following words on the beleaguered African nation and its leader: Mubarak's fate is sealed, not even the support of the United States will be able to save his government. The people of Egypt are an intelligent people with a glorious history who left their mark on civilization. "From the top of these pyramids, 40 centuries of history are looking down upon us," Bonaparte once said in a moment of exaltation when the revolution brought him to this extraordinary crossroads of civilizations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #0815: The BBC's Jim Muir in Tahrir Sqaure says the ground is covered in rubble in the aftermath of yesterday's clashes. Army now has a thick presence on the ground, and is establishing a clear defensive cordon on the perimeter of the square, but is letting people in. Pro-Mubarak groups seem to have disappeared - at least for the time being.#0818: More from the BBC's Jim Muir in Tahrir Sqaure: "The mood here is very relaxed. Some sitting in sunshine, some sleeping. The fear of imminent attack has eased." #0821: Dentist Wael Hassan, who's been delivering medicine to Tahrir Square, gives another update on the situation this morning: "I saw loads of medical supplies... But still it's very primitive, it's only providing first aid for the injured." He adds that the "confrontation last night was much less than the night before" and that now, "spirits are very high" in the square. #0906: More on Egyptian state TV's coverage from Khaled Fahmy of the American University in Cairo: "There are live broadcasts 24/7 showing only one side of the story, only one side," he tells the BBC World Service. "I have not seen a single pro-democracy activist being interviewed on Egyptian TV. Egyptian TV's message is basically stability. Mubarak represents stability. #0909: More from the BBC's Lyse Doucet tweets: "More soldiers #Qasr Nil entrance Tahrir sq. Double coils razor wire thrown across street. But mood relaxed #egypt #jan 25" #0914: The BBC's Jim Muir says numbers are building up in Tahrir Square. He says the protesters' one aim is to get Mr Mubarak out. If the president stepped down and protests continued, it would come down to a very small core of demonstrators, because everyone's aware of paralysis in Egypt and the impact of the unrest on the economy, our correspondent says. #0917: A protester tells BBC World what we've heard before - that demonstrators are not expecting to move from Tahrir Square today. So a march on the presidential palace - an idea that had previously been aired - is looking less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 The crowd in Tarir Square looks massive already. I'm wondering how they will all fit in there today and what will happen to all the people who won't fit inside. Another thing that worries me a bit is that the protesters are a bit too focused on getting Mubarak to step down. I don't know how much power he really has at this point, and I don't know how much a difference it will make for him to be gone, if he is forced out of power while his cronies and others remain. I think that whether or not Mubarak steps down early, there needs to be some changes instituted as soon as possible and kept in place. First of all the government propaganda needs to end, because the people seem fairly confused as to what is going on. The state tv channels need to be restructured so that people aren't being manipulated as easily as they are and the truth gets out. There needs to be freedom and safety for the press (both local and foreign). The protesters need some sort of guarantee of protection or safety that they can believe in. Not sure how though. Obviously there need to be steps taken to ensure that elections are free and fair and not run by people who have run them fraudulently before or easily manipulated by people with agendas. (I'm sure this is being talked about already though). There should be some sort of international overview to make certain that these things are not taken away again or faked. (International media could play a roll in that.) Anyway, those are just some ideas that I think should be considered, if they aren't already. ---------------------------------- Right now the general secretary of the NDP is bull****ting about the western media and denying the police id cards that BBC said they have seen in person. He keeps saying that western media is trying to destroy Egypt and that the people in the square are manipulating things and trying to bring down Egypt. He says millions of supporters will come out and make their voice heard today. Then back tracked and said he was not calling for them to come out today. It's amazing how similar to the leaders of Iran, Mubarak and his allies are. Frightening really. wow that was one tough back and forth between him and the BBC reporter. lol ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 04:52 AM ---------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #0930: British Prime Minister David Cameron, who has called for Egypt to act now to carry out a transition, says: "So far the steps taken have not met the hopes of the people." #0933: More from David Cameron: "If we see on the streets of Cairo today state-sponsored violence by thugs hired to beat up protesters, the regime will lose any remaining credibility it has in the eyes of the watching world, including Britain." The British prime minister was speaking on his arrival at an EU summit in Brussels.'#0944: From the BBC's Mark Georgiou: "A long, long line of people trying to get into Tahrir Square stretches back across one of the bridges that spans the Nile. Many have plastic bags filled with bread and bottled water - they are ready for a long haul. Security is tight and there's more army on the street. Barbed wire at the the entrance to the square is new. It's calm, orderly. Not everyone will get in before prayers begin a little after noon. They will pray on the bridge." #0945: From the BBC's Paul Danahar: "For the first time this week I have seen no pro-Mubarak protestors around the square at all. The army have set up security checkpoints on the far side of the bridge. People are forming orderly, good-natured queues. In short, the army are in control." #0951: More from the BBC's Paul Danahar in Cairo: "The anti-Mubarak demonstration today is going to be huge. Easily as big as Tuesday's million man protest. The rioting has clearly emboldened rather than deterred people from coming out today." ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 05:06 AM ---------- http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/04/us-egypt-idUSTRE70O3UW20110204 In Tahrir, or Liberation, Square, the focus of protests and of violence with Mubarak loyalists in the previous two days, there was a festive atmosphere, with soldiers keeping order and the veteran defense minister, Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, paying a visit and talking to his soldiers."Today is the last day, today is the last day!" protesters shouted as Arabic pop songs blared from a bank of speakers: "For Egypt, today is a day a celebration!" Crowds were expected to build after midday prayers, the focal point of the Muslim weekend in Egypt. The protesters, from a diverse range of Egypt's 80 million population, hope to encourage the unprecedented million-plus numbers on the streets of the nation's cities that they saw on Tuesday. On that evening, Mubarak announced he would step down, but only in September, when a presidential election due. Though many Egyptians felt that was good enough, and hoped for a return to normality after the disruptions which began on January 25, many want Mubarak to leave immediately. The United States and its Western allies, while refraining from saying he must quit now, have urged an immediate start to transition. #1006: Amnesty International's James Lynch gives the BBC World Service details of how two of the group's members were detained yesterday: "They were at the Hisham Mubarak Law Centre with a number of other human rights activists, local and international yesterday when the centre was surrounded by what appears to have been, from the reports we've got, a mixture of army and police who then entered the building, who then removed people's mobile phones and took them away in unmarked cars." #1010: More on detentions from Leila Soueif, wife of human rights lawyer Ahmed Hamad - reportedly one of those arrested yesterday. "We don't know anything," she tells the BBC. "We don't know where they were taken. All that we know is that they were taken by military police." It's fairly worrisome if the military have been involved in the arrests, kidnappings, and detainments of the journalists. They're replaying the heated interview with the General Secretary of the NDP (ruling party). This guy is pretty sleazy and a little scary. ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 05:20 AM ---------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #1014: More from the BBC's Paul Danahar: "There is incredibly tight security getting into the square. Four separate army checkpoints with barbed wire and many more troops than any day of the protests so far. Inside the square the demonstrators have set up another checkpoint five man deep to check bags and ID again. The mood inside the square is jubilant, the crowd seemed energised by their numbers. Any hope the government may have had that their concessions this week would end the protests seems lost if today's turnout is any indication." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 For a "glass is as dry as the Sahara" view of the events in Egypt... Game over: The chance for democracy in Egypt is lost http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/02/game_over_the_chance_for_democracy_in_egypt_is_lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I'm amazed at the crowd in the Square. I don't know if I've ever seen it this big. Right now I'm watching both BBC and Al Jezeera. lol The protests have just started! Here it goes, folks! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ Ominous: #1042: Hamish Macdonald from Ten Network Australia tweets: "Just got detained by military behind #egypt TV building. Captives there cable tied and being tasered. #6PM." I'm seeing no coverage on CNN, Fox, or MSNBC right now, and BBC (on my tv at least) just went to some other stuff. They do of course have a lot to talk about I guess. Al Jezeera is showing both Cairo and Alexandria at the moment. And BBC is back to Egypt again. Alexandria has tons and tons of protesters too. Amazing! They said that the State tv is there at the square. I wonder what they're showing. I hope people in Cairo can hear the crowd far away. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #1051: The BBC's lyse Doucet meets 11-year-old Abdullah in Tahrir Square, who says: "I want my country to be the best in the world." His parents brought him here because they wanted to show him people can speak out, adds our correspondent. CNN International is showing some footage now and covering it, not sure about CNN. The crowd seems so massive, I can't imagine what will happen later if lots more people show up, as they usually do. ------------------------ There's 3-4 check points that people have to go through to get into the square and they're also searched around 3 times on the way in. Apparently there is some pro Mubarak crowd/demonstration somewhere out there, that the government is telling them about, I think. They don't think it's very large though. (this is on CNN Int) The anti-government crowd in Alexandria is so large that Al Jazeera is struggling to show it all, by panning around the area. I didn't think this many people would show up in either city. Wow. The pro-Mubarak supporters in Alexandria seem to have mostly disappeared, when they had been roaming in groups of 20 and 30 the last few days. WTF, Berlusconi? #1122: Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has made comments that sound very different in tone to those by other Western leaders. "I hope that in Egypt there can be a transition toward a more democratic system without a break from President Mubarak, who in the West, above all in the United States, is considered the wisest of men and a precise reference point," Reuters quotes him as saying. "I hope there can be continuity in government." ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 06:41 AM ---------- These crowds are one of the most amazing, uplifting things I've ever seen. I haven't really found pictures from today so far. If anyone can find some, please post a few. (try to make sure they aren't big enough to slow the thread down though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Al Jazeera is saying that Arab League Chief Moussa is in the crowd in Cairo. People of all walks of life, age, and religion are there in astounding numbers. On CNN they're showing people dancing and clapping and celebrating throughout the crowd. People are bringing in supplies for everyone. It's nice to see the reporters again able to report on all this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #1150: Dima Khatib tweets: "More than 100,000 protesters in Mansoura. They want Mubarak not just out, also put on trial." One witness on CNN Int says that plainclothes police are turning people away farther out from the square. Also state tv is telling people not to go, not to show up in the square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Instability and chaos don't favor the disorganized majority. They favor the organized minority. It's always been thus. The folks who win the revolutions aren't the guys who start them but the guys who understand how to take full advantage of the void.The best hope of the majority is for elections to be held after a cooling down period and that is what Mubaric is offering.. I do think this is a valid point. Me, my paranoid forecasts center around Hamas. They have a very well organized political group. They know how to play the political game. They're right across the border in Gaza. They have experience using humanitarian aid as a tool for all kinds of things. They no doubt have (very well hidden) people all over Egypt, because they've been using Egypt for years, to smuggle weapons into Gaza. Even if you aren't worried about the Brotherhood, Hamas is far more politically powerful than any of the opposition groups. If there's an outbreak of democracy, I'd certainly expect them to have an influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 And Hamas came out of who?....never mind, look a butterfly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 It's interesting to see Ivan Watson and Ben Wedeman on CNN in the morning safely reporting on the crowd in Cairo. (Usually they're on at night and both have been hiding out to keep from being lynched by the Mubarak supporter mobs) can't find a online feed for cnn international right now. But if anyone is looking for somewhere to watch online: http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2011/2/4/egypt-latest-live-coverage-from-al-jazeera-english.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 07:37 AM ---------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #1217: Sultan Al Qassemi , a columnist for The National, tweets: "El Baradei: I met with nine protest leaders last night. When they left my house they were all arrested, these are Mubarak's promises #Jan25." #1224: Prominent activist Asma Mahfouz, one of the Tahrir Square demonstration's leaders, says she has received death threats from members of the ruling NDP party. She told BBC Arabic TV: "I made a video asking people not to be scared, asking how long will we live in fear, that we should go to the streets and that there are plenty of men in Egypt, and we can protect ourselves from Mubarak's thugs. But now I'm getting many threatening calls from Mubarak's people ordering me not to leave my home, and saying that if I do I will be killed along with my family." #1235: The BBC's Wyre Davies in Alexandria: "It's a very tense situation here. More soldiers and tanks at prominent positions in Alexandria - there were a number of armed police and plainclothes policemen near the main square. One secret policeman near the square was identified, beaten, bundled away and driven off in a car. The anti-government protesters say they will not move until Mubarak goes, but there's a much more visible police presence here. #1245: Al-Jazera English tweets: "Al jazeera Arabic's Cairo office has been stormed by unknown men and the office has been trashed #Egypt #tahrir" #1247: Leading Egyptian opposition politician Mohamed ElBaradei tells the BBC World Service: "Mr Mubarak has lost legitimacy, Mr Mubarak needs to go. This is a united voice coming from almost every single Egyptian, right, left and centre. And I hope he will listen to that, leave in dignity and get Egypt to go on with its life. A new life based on democracy and social justice." #1251: More from Mohamed ElBaradei's interview with the BBC's Newshour programme. In response to President Mubarak saying there would be chaos if he left right now, he says: "This is the narrative of a dictator. He has to leave in six months and we will have to go through the same process, a transition of power. If there is chaos today, why wouldn't there be chaos in six months when he has to leave by law. This is no argument; this is someone who is trying to prolong the shelf life of a toxic regime." ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 08:00 AM ---------- http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/04/egypt-crisis-troops-in-riot-gear-approach-tahrir-square-early-friday/?hpt=T1 [update 2:53 p.m. in Cairo, 7:53 a.m. ET] Amr Moussa, the Arab League's secretary-general and a veteran Egyptian diplomat, joined protesters in Cairo's Tahrir Square on Friday, state-run Nile TV reported. Interesting that Nile TV is reporting it. CNN is reporting on tv that one of the two most important imams of the sunni world is there as well. I don't recall his name though. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/04/egypt-crisis-troops-in-riot-gear-approach-tahrir-square-early-friday/?hpt=T1 [update 3:02 p.m. in Cairo, 8:02 a.m. ET] The spokesman for Al-Azhar University, the prestigious center for Sunni Muslim education in Cairo, told CNN Friday he has resigned from his position and joined the anti-government protesters in Tahrir Square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Al Jazeera is reporting that a couple hundred pro Mubarak supporters are trying to enter the area, but they are confronted by a tank and it maneuvered to make them find a different route. http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2011/2/4/egypt-latest-live-coverage-from-al-jazeera-english.html #1313: Margaret in Giza says: "I haven't been out of my house since Monday. While the days are calm, at night it is scary with sounds gunfire. The men go out to protect the small family houses on my street. Everyone is taking responsibility and it has been wonderful, empowering, and very humbling. At the beginning of the protests there was a demonstration in Pyramid Street but since then, it has been quiet - people have been keeping their heads down. Thugs are completely able to do what they want and the secret police are more like an army of control - I think most of the trouble stems from them." ------- Al Jazeera is reporting that hundreds of pro mubarak supporters are gathering on the 6th october bridge. --------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #1325: Al Jazeera's Evan Hill tweets: "Talaat harb square east of tahrir is chaos now but the barricade itself not under attack, the fighting is in the street." #1329: From the BBC's Mark Georgiou in Cairo: "State TV has a split screen showing live shots of a pro-Mubarak rally on one side and the scene in Tahrir Square on the other. They describe the first as pro-stability and pro-dialogue and the latter as demanding political reforms. So, at the moment the two sides are busy with their separate rallies. The Tahrir Square crowd aren't going anywhere. Across town Mubarak's supporters are gathering. #1332: The BBC's Khaled Ezzelarab reports there has been a stone-throwing clash between protesters in Tahrir Square. Meanwhile, the BBC's Islam Saad says around 2000 supporters of Mr Mubarak have joined the Mustafa Mahmoud Square demo. He says: "They are waving Egyptian flags and chanting: 'Yes to Mubarak, yes to stability. 30 years of peace.'" ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 08:44 AM ---------- One of the Al Jazeera reporters just described how he and his coworkers were kidnapped, blindfolded and held for around five hours by thugs until the military came to rescue them. He said the military probably saved his life. When his blindfold was taken off he found himself in the company of dozens of other journalists, human rights activists, foreign nationals, and arabs that were considered suspicious by the kidnappers. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/04/egypt-crisis-troops-in-riot-gear-approach-tahrir-square-early-friday/?hpt=T1 [update 3:16 p.m. in Cairo, 8:16 a.m. ET]About 35,000 people have taken to the streets Friday in the Egyptian city of Suez, a spokesman for opposition leader Ayman Nour told CNN. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #1347: Forty-four year old businessman Amer in Tahrir Square tells the BBC World Service: "I came today to join all the honest people of Egypt, raising their voices for a free Egypt. No more corruption, no more domination. I live very comfortably but I feel very sad for the poor people around me. What's the meaning of living in comfort when all the people are suffering? So I'm here today to stand by the people." #1349: Blogger Ali Seif tweets: "if more people swarm in, we will have to stand on eachother's shoulders to fit everyone #jan25." #1351: Journalist Bel Trew tweets: "Riot in Talat Harb, right next to me. Can see rock throwing and iron rods. Military guiding us through. #jan25." #1353: Also in Tahrir Square is 75 year old retired UN official, Syed Zulfiqar, who tells the BBC World Service: "This is exceptional. I never expected that after 60 years of dictatorship, suddenly the people would wake up and have the courage to rise because the secret police are ferocious and they have been able to keep them at bay. Tunisia set the example, it set the spark. And obviously this was a tinderbox that was about to explode." ---------- Post added February-4th-2011 at 09:08 AM ---------- LMAO! They are showing the state tv coverage on Al Jazeera now. This is some pretty hilarious stuff...sad though. They said there were no demonstrators against Mubarak. Then a witness came on and said there were 3,000 protesters against mubarak and there were no clashes. (which there were a few small ones earlier today) Now they're saying that the people in Suez are standing steadfast in the face of the enemy. (Suez supposedly has 35,000 anti-mubarak protesters) They keep saying there were only 3,000 protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I'm seeing a large amount of smoke coming up from the middle of Cairo, on BBC. It looked like a huge building was burning or something. On Al Jazeera, they show pro mubarak supporters trying to rush the square from the bridge and get blocked by the tanks again. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/04/egypt-crisis-troops-in-riot-gear-approach-tahrir-square-early-friday/?hpt=T1 [update 4:08 p.m. in Cairo, 9:08 a.m. ET] Egypt's health minister told state TV Friday he plans to go to Cairo's Tahrir Square, check on the huge crowd and coordinate efforts with the country's military. BBC says that there have been mubarak supporters running around in groups, escorted by police cars in Alexandria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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